Author Topic: True from-scratch storage. (Read 8735 times)

bob golding · « **Reply #33 on:** May 05, 2005, 04:59:27 PM »

could go to bed a dusk then you dont need the light. ok remember the way to the john so you dont stub your toe. think medical problems are more likely to finish you off than any technological fixes we can come up with here. i live off grid and would feel quite vunerable without my cell phone. i am also very careful not to do anything stupid like cut or burn myself. maybe i shouldnt mess with rusty bits of sharp metal and try to repair broken gennies . ermmm a dilemma ,as might have to do this sort of stuff to survive. opps seem to have gone off topic a bit, but the point is you learn to adapt by doing it. i spent a lot of time trying to produce electricity. i dont have the option of a link to the grid, but i wouldnt use it if i had it this is much more fun. the local village gets a fair few power cuts in the winter. dont bother meat all.

bob golding

PHinker · « **Reply #34 on:** May 05, 2005, 05:23:04 PM »

Hydrogen emissions? Unless hydrogen producers are not capturing the hydrogen they produce (which would kind of defeat the purpose) then it (hydrogen) will be used as an energy source via combustion. In which case the 'emissions' would be h2O sometimes referred to as water. I agree this is a very dangerous substance when not treated with respect especially when found in large quantities (sometimes referred to as lakes and oceans) but I have not seen nor heard of any research which blames water for ozone depletion.

Paul

Norm · « **Reply #35 on:** May 05, 2005, 05:46:47 PM »

Mostly just cable and pulleys....a cable wraps around the shaft of windmill which is wrapped around the shaft of the generator

with the weight attached , it is slowly riding

down the cable, 'unwinding' as it spins the generator, in the meantime the windmill is lifting the part of the cable where the weight

and generator are located on the cable.

Just like winding up an old phonograph it'll play even as you're winding it.

In fact there are a lot of things that could be run directly with a weight turning a shaft.

( :>) Norm.

Norm · « **Reply #36 on:** May 05, 2005, 06:07:09 PM »

Actually they are piston engines....3 cylinders air enters the high pressure cylinder,

drives it downward then exhaust to the intermediate cylinder, continuing to expand,

then exhaust to the low pressure cylinder.

A guy back in the '70's used an air

compressor powered by a windmill to fill several

high pressure cylinders like 2000 lb. air cylinders then powered this type engine in a car.

Got fairly good 'air' mileage.

( :>) Norm.

doceanboy · « **Reply #37 on:** May 05, 2005, 06:25:36 PM »

do you have his website or a site with this air motor?

wooferhound · « **Reply #38 on:** May 05, 2005, 06:30:27 PM »

the End of the World is coming . . .

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/4/2/63834/21217

Volvo farmer · « **Reply #39 on:** May 05, 2005, 07:29:53 PM »

Batteries are nice but not absolutely essential in the production and use of electricity. If you have enough solar panels or a wind generator and an inverter, you can have electricity in the DC and AC variety when the sun is shining/ wind is blowing. You won't get electric light at night, (unless it's windy) but you could concievably have 5 or more hours/day when electricity would be available for the using, even if you can't store it.

pyrocasto · « **Reply #40 on:** May 05, 2005, 08:18:20 PM »

If you use hydro gen, how do you get the power back? A fuel cell, which would cost more than you would want I'm sure, plus a little hard to build from scrap.

Why would you not just get batteries and not worry about the grid going down? If "somehow" all the companies in the world went dead, your batteries would still work for up to several years if you take care of them. Then you could just pedal a bicycle every time you need power. I'm one of the ones of course, that doesnt see a "Postman" happening in the near future.

If you still wont do it then a water tower, or air tank, or possable a weight system would be your only not so hard options, that we all can think of...

Wolvenar · « **Reply #41 on:** May 05, 2005, 08:39:24 PM »

Magnets are not your worry if direct to electric is your course, suitable insulated wire for the generator is..

You can make a simple self exiciting altenator, just utilize field coils like in a car altenator.. its possibly less efficient. but in lack of the ability to self build strong permanent magnets, this is the alternative. It's fairly easy to make a simple iron core magnet if you can find a way to power a coil around better suited metal that will hold magnatism.

Another problem is, in such a rebooted world, you need to find a way to create an initial magnet charge that will hold some magnetism between the time the field coils are charged in the altenator.

Wolv

Texas Al · « **Reply #42 on:** May 05, 2005, 09:31:17 PM »

Thanks to all of you, I got some good leads from this discussion. The alternatives to lead batteries that I didn't already know about when I started are...

1) NiFe (Edison cells)

Advantages: non-toxic, durable

Disadvantages: not as efficient as lead-acid

To research further: where to get nickel-oxide or how to make it out of nickel (and then, in turn, where to get nickel).

2) Air pressure

Advantages: non-toxic, mechanical

Disadvantages: high pressure gas, increasing resistance as tank fills, uncertain efficiency

To research further: how much volume and at what pressure (25* C) you need need to have in order to retrievably store 1 kWh.

3) Flywheel

Advantages: non-toxic, mechanical

Disadvantages: high-speed moving parts

To research further: how many kWh a flywheel the size and mass of a truck tire in a low-pressure compartment can retrievably store spinning at the highest speed permitted by its design; what this speed actually is; how to transmit the relatively constant rotation of a windmill to the constantly accelerating rotation of the flywheel during its charging phase.

(I knew about elevated water and suspended mass approaches, and unless my calculations were wrong, the sheer size of the system needed to power a residence would be prohibitive unless you happen to already be near a hill or cliff)

Texas Al · « **Reply #43 on:** May 05, 2005, 09:43:31 PM »

It would be a rebooted world, not a world wiped clean of every last trace of technology. Every single appliance around us contains insulated wire. Every hard drive and removable-media drive has at least two very strong magnets (maybe floppy drives do too, I haven't gotten around to taking one apart yet). If you're not picky about the capacity which of course I'm not, you can buy them anywhere for a couple of dollars. I'm guessing 10 or 20 HD's = 1 dynamo = $40 to $80 (for the magnets). In one shoebox you can fit the magnets from maybe 400 drives. Possibly a good candidate for stockpiling.

Texas Al · « **Reply #44 on:** May 05, 2005, 09:49:15 PM »

You can't have a useable wind or solar system without some form of storage to even out the power availability. Most electrical devices are designed for a particular range of voltage and current.

Sure lights will flicker and dim but ride out power fluctuations, but it's not the lights I'm worried about. Those aren't a very good use for electricity anyway; I envision using candles or oil lamps.

I'm thinking more along the lines of shop equipment where a power-surge or brownout can create an unsafe situation.

Texas Al · « **Reply #45 on:** May 05, 2005, 09:57:44 PM »

Sorry, I shouldn't have said emissions, I should have said leakage.

No container 100% gas-tight, and that goes double for a tiny molecule like H2. If only a few people are using hydrogen for their power storage needs, it doesn't matter. But if it catches on and everybody goes that route, this escaped hydrogen starts to add up.

Now, this is all a-priori reasoning, I have to admit. I haven't seen any studies saying that H2 will react with atmospheric O3. So for all I know the ozone thing might be a baseless concern where hydrogen is concerned.

Gary D · « **Reply #46 on:** May 06, 2005, 08:15:54 AM »

Another option would be hydrolic cylanders lifting steel(tons of it) as storage. Think of how many garages, dump trucks etc. use them now. On windy days, with excess production, you could power an electric motor to lift. It would stay there (barring leaks) till you need it. Then release the hyrdolic fluid at the rate you need to spin a pmg to recharge batteries etc. Lots of lift required or lots of weight, low effiency, but possibly an option. Pmg would run at the same speed till the weight was back down unlike an air system. Fairly easy to get 1 or more kw worth of storage... not the best, cylinder aren't cheap, o rings need periodic replacing, but it would work.

Was using a log splitter most of yesterday (can you tell?) As for the end of things as we know it... NO comment

finnsawyer · « **Reply #47 on:** May 06, 2005, 09:17:28 AM »

I think your focus is too narrow. ANY machine will eventually break down. When everything goes to hell, no parts will be available. Therefore my solution, if possible, is to commandeer the nearest hydro power generating plant. Then bring in a series of lathes, furnaces, etc. to build the machines I need to keep going. If you've got reliable power you have the potential. So, if you really believe things are going to become untenable I suggest you look around for a good legal hydro site and put in your own hydro. Then start buying the machines. But be aware that you're probably not going to be able the make such things as ball bearings. Remember babbit? That's going to become your bearing material.

kitno455 · « **Reply #48 on:** May 06, 2005, 09:42:06 AM »

right, this was my point way back in the begining of the thread. the original poster has said something like 'i wanna last for generations, so stockpiling bulbs wont help' and at the same time 'cars are tossed out every 5 years, there will be plenty of those'. if society stops making lightbulbs, i can tell you it will stop making cars, so in 150 years, are you going to be able to use 5 year old junk autos? not likely. especially when everyone else in the country will be trying to do the same thing, they will all be gone.

return to the days of the early industrial revolution. mechanical (leather belt driven) wind and water power, coal, oil, wood, charcoal, and woodgas heated steam. the only major advantage you have is good machine tools like lathes are readily availible, and you will (at least for awhile) have a ready supply of already mined and refined metals.

learn to run a smelter and a forge, and cast your own bits. poured babbit bearings and hand-hammered metal. oh, and dont forget agriculture. you gotta eat.

allan

Texas Al · « **Reply #49 on:** May 06, 2005, 12:17:14 PM »

My observation that at the moment car parts are plentiful is in now way contradictory with my desire for long-lasting technology.

Let's say from the hypothetical moment of grid-failure there will be a supply of surplus cars for ten years. It's not as if I want to obtain electrical power and then just sit there, using up an ever dwindling supply of parts. Once the immediate survival needs of me and my neighbors are met, the next goal obviously becomes recovering the capability to produce anything else we might need or want, including the parts that we originally 'cheated' on by stockpiling or recycling. Just because in a worst-case scenario we could slide back to the 1800's doesn't mean we'd have to stay there.

Why would this plan be any better if I pretended that we don't have at least a decade's supply of cars lying around when in fact we do? If we had no surplus cars, I wouldn't plan on using them, but it would be the same overall plan, it would just take longer and involve more steps. Such a plan may be worth figuring out, but priority goes to the plan best adapted to the situation at hand.

Regarding food, yes of course food takes priority over energy in the overall scheme of things. Our testing ground has an area we set aside for farming. It's just that I'm not one of the members of the group who specializes in farming, and this is not a website that specializes in farming, so the subject just isn't going to come up much. :-)

Big All · « **Reply #50 on:** May 06, 2005, 01:09:36 PM »

FLA = flooded lead acid

ibedonc · « **Reply #51 on:** May 06, 2005, 01:54:15 PM »

In Texas , I get them for $150 for a 1000gal , $70 for a 320gal

ghurd · « **Reply #52 on:** May 06, 2005, 03:13:53 PM »

These are tested, painted brown, reinforced a couple places, fitted with some fittings or valves or something...

Anyway. Ready to use.

I am sure they don't include shipping.

PHinker · « **Reply #53 on:** May 06, 2005, 03:28:44 PM »

This is interesting since the prices here in Colorado (at least the two places I checked) are closer to $500 for a 1000 gal tank. Does anyone know what kind of pressure one of these refitted tanks could sustain? Someone said something about 135 psi earlier but would 200 psi be out of the question?

Thanks

Paul

ghurd · « **Reply #54 on:** May 06, 2005, 04:54:39 PM »

I have nothing at all to do with them!

But have heard stories where the take over #160 all the time.

Probably depends on who and how they were redone.

kitno455 · « **Reply #55 on:** May 06, 2005, 05:59:41 PM »

ok, i'll work with that idea, basically you are saying you have three stages of your plan.

now, grid works, cheap oil, stockpiling parts
total economic collapse, barter system, reduce, reuse, recycle, repair, deplete stockpiles.
money, forges, foundries, factories (Ind.Rev. all over again, in that order)

if this kind of stuff does happen, i believe you will only have to survive #2. #3 will occur on a massive, societal scale, and fast too.

best way i see to get thru #2? start a salvage yard for VW or toyota 4cyl diesels. hundreds of them, the non-turbo kind. learn to grow oilseed crops, hemp, etc, and learn to produce bio diesel. use and perfect the repair of these engines and refining of the oils now. so at least when this stuff never happens, you can make some money on selling car parts and save some making your own fuel.

allan

wooferhound · « **Reply #56 on:** May 06, 2005, 07:09:57 PM »

Mad

Max

hobot · « **Reply #57 on:** May 06, 2005, 08:02:45 PM »

check out earth batteries and earth currents like

they powered telegraph in some locations.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/2/7/1478/39906

Norm · « **Reply #58 on:** May 07, 2005, 10:18:59 PM »

No web site or link maybe search on google for

air powered car?

Lot of links to steam triple expansion engines

maybe a hobby type thing?

Maybe Ed...(windstuffnow) has experimented

with engines like this.

( :>) Norm

finnsawyer · « **Reply #59 on:** May 08, 2005, 09:29:31 AM »

Good points. Even if the collapse does happen, it probably won't go back very far. The real danger might be the development of a "feudal" system where one area produces coal or oil, another produces semiconductors, another batteries, another some kind of transportation device, and so on. The real inefficiencies will come about because of the separate political entities and their propensity to levy tariffs and start wars. You just can't predict the future, but we have a good idea of human nature.

News:

Author Topic: True from-scratch storage. (Read 8735 times)