Author Topic: Source of cheap nickel?  (Read 6854 times)

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Texas Al

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Source of cheap nickel?
« on: May 17, 2005, 12:43:38 AM »
I'm interested in experimenting with Edison cells (a.k.a. ironclads, a.k.a. NiFe batteries). I'm looking at materials with which to build the nickel side of the battery.


One possibility is to just buy pure nickel and either expose it to a concentrated base  and/or to run current through it the 'wrong' way so that it gets oxidized to NiO2 (similar to how they burn-in the anode on a lead-acid battery-- those things don't start out being made from PbO2 either). Can anybody think of a reason this wouldn't work the way I expect it to?


Anyway, if this does work, to do this cheaply I would need to find out what sorts of objects contain pure nickel so I can start looking for broken ones on the cheap. Does anybody know where/inside what scrap nickel is to be found?


Alternatively, nickel-plated things are all over the place. I suppose I could smash up a bunch of nickel-plated doorknobs and sink-faucets and oxidize those to get NiO2-coated steel (or whatever it is they're made of). Now, the advantage seems to be that I'd have a thin layer of reactive nickel already deposited onto a conducting and mechanically sturdy substrate... but would the steel or brass or whatever interfere with the redox reaction in some way?


The other possibility (if for some reason making my own NiO2 isn't feasible) is to look for ready-made NiO2. The only off-the-shelf product I know about that contains NiO2 is black pottery glaze. The drawback to that is that the cheapest price I could find on it anyplace is about $30 USD per pound for black glaze. That starts to add up if you want to build big batteries. Does anybody know of any cheap source of NiO2?


Thanks! I'll let everyone know how the batteries turn out and what I end up using to make them.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2005, 12:43:38 AM by (unknown) »

RP

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Re: Source of cheap nickel?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2005, 07:14:05 PM »
The only thing that comes to mind might be some kind of catalyst screen or mesh used in chemical work.  I'm guessing you'll want sheet or foil since you need surface area to expose to the electrolyte.


You might try a commercial scrap/recycling place in a large city or a high end machine shop (aerospace or something maybe).

« Last Edit: May 16, 2005, 07:14:05 PM by RP »

monte350c

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Re: Source of cheap nickel?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2005, 07:32:15 PM »
This is a bit wordy but a good account of some details Edison used in the development of this battery:


http://www.jhalpin.com/metuchen/tae/ehlai23.htm


Let us know if you get something working!


I read somewhere that this type of battery is still in production somewhere in Europe? Anybody know source or pricing?


Ted.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2005, 07:32:15 PM by monte350c »

farmerfrank

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Re: Source of cheap nickel?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2005, 07:41:49 PM »
Yes I think you'd have to try a chemical plant. Ni02 is used as a catalyst in ethylene oxide production but even the spent catalyst was guarded by security. Nickel is sold by the ounce remember. As far as pure nickel goes you may be able to get some from an exotic weld shop as nickel rod is used to weld cast iron. Good luck.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2005, 07:41:49 PM by farmerfrank »

stop4stuff

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Re: Source of cheap nickel?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2005, 12:22:39 AM »
a quick google for nickel suppliers gave this page as one of many answers...

the page lists international suppliers

http://metals.about.com/od/nickel/
« Last Edit: May 17, 2005, 12:22:39 AM by stop4stuff »

Texas Al

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Re: Source of cheap nickel?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2005, 02:31:20 AM »
Thanks for the Edison link-- fascinating and inspirational, reading it right now.


Well, looks like the price for Nickel on international metal exchanges is around $7-$8/lb... which is way lower than the $9/44g lumps of nickel someone is selling on eBay for some reason. As the above posters said, it turns out nickel is a welding supply-- I saw nickel rods for sale at Home Depot in the welding section, and they again were pricey.


I guess I'll first try in-place Ni->NiO2 conversion of nickel plated objects. I wish I paid more attention in high school chemistry. Then I would know whether it matters (for the purposes of the battery) that the nickel is usually plated on steel or brass (with iron as the other electrode and NaOH or KOH as the electrolyte).


If that doesn't work, I suppose I'll need to order nickel foil or wire direct from a manufacturer. None of them ever quote their prices on their websites which makes me nervous... does anybody know how to avoid getting really gauged by these people? I have a hunch that the moment they find out I'm ordering just a small amount, they're going to quote a price that's going to make all the other sources of nickel seem cheap by comparison.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2005, 02:31:20 AM by Texas Al »

thunderhead

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Re: Source of cheap nickel?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2005, 04:35:20 AM »
Although nickel costs about 14 times what lead costs per weight, it only costs about 4 times what lead costs per mole, since a mole of lead weighs 207g and a mole of nickel only weighs 59g.


Nickel may be plated very easily, normally from a solution of nickel sulphamide and a nickel anode.  Lots of suppliers sell both nickel sulphamide (or as it is called in Texas, nickel sulfamide) and nickel as bars or rods.


If you can't get nickel wire wool (and I think you might be able to, since nickel is used as a catalyst for several reactions, including making margarine) you could assemble your electrode using iron wire wool, fluff the wire wool out, and nickel plate it.  Once you know how much Ni(OH)2 you can convert on a wire before the resistance gets too much, you'll know what the optimum depth for the nickel plating is.


Let us know how you get on. :-)

« Last Edit: May 17, 2005, 04:35:20 AM by thunderhead »

Texas Al

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Re: Source of cheap nickel?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2005, 11:32:06 AM »
> Once you know how much Ni(OH)2 you can convert on a wire

> before the resistance gets too much, you'll know what the

> optimum depth for the nickel plating is.


Does it matter what the wire is made of? The cathode is made of iron and has to be isolated from direct contact the nickel anode in order to avoid a short. But if the nickel is plated onto steel to begin with, won't it react in the same way with the iron that's in the steel?


Or is it that as long as the substrate the nickel is plated on gets protected by the nickel from exposure to the electrolyte, it won't matter what the substrate is (as long as it conducts)?

« Last Edit: May 17, 2005, 11:32:06 AM by Texas Al »

nanotech

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Re: Source of cheap nickel?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2005, 06:56:20 PM »
The skegs on outboard motors are made of nickel, I think.


A skeg is the little removeable "fin" at the very bottom.  They are used to prevent corrosion.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2005, 06:56:20 PM by nanotech »

Texas Al

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Re: Source of cheap nickel?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2005, 12:05:48 AM »
Ah, thanks! That's helpful.


I wonder if there's some kind of chemical test for nickel... because then I can just go through the many metal objects lying around the house and maybe find a few more nickel sources.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2005, 12:05:48 AM by Texas Al »

thunderhead

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Re: Source of cheap nickel?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2005, 02:03:59 AM »


Or is it that as long as the substrate the nickel is plated on gets protected by the nickel from exposure to the electrolyte, it won't matter what the substrate is (as long as it conducts)?


Yes.  The chemical reaction goes on where the electrode is in contact with the electrolyte, both for electroplating and the hydroxide formation process.  So the underlying substrate can be made of anything, provided there is enough nickel on it to protect it from being exposed to the electrolyte.  Since the long life of the Edison cell (as I understand it) is down to the nickel hydroxide being replenished from the underlying nickel during the recharging process, any surface plating will slowly be etched away as the battery goes through thousands of cycles.


As I understand it, the problem is how to get the nickel hydroxide, which is not a good conductor, into electrical contact with the terminal on the battery.  This is what got Edison making flakes of nickel, and what is at the heart of the modern "pocket plate" design.  If the nickel hydroxide layer is thin enough, this should not be a problem, but then we need a very large surface area if the battery is not to become prohibitively heavy.


Here are modern examples of ways to overcome this problem (in NiMH, but the nickel electrode is the same):-


http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4985318.html

http://www.electroenergyinc.com/products/technicalpapers/ScaleUp.pdf

http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2001/TM-2001-211068.pdf


These approaches are probably beyond the home constructor.  Hence the wire wool, as it is probably the best compromise between surface area, conductivity, and kitchen sink technology.


If you're using nickel wire wool (still a possibility, if you're making lots of batteries and can order the stuff from the factory - it's called a "nickel felt electrode" - see P2 of the NASA report) then you don't have to worry about the surface plating breaking through, but can instead choose the thinnest grade of wire that will avoid the wires being broken by that same etching as cycles go by.  But you still need to know how much Ni can be converted to Ni(OH)2 before you get too high an internal resistance.


If you're using plating, you'll need to experiment first to find out how much hydroxide gives the internal resistance you want; and then to find out how much more plating than this you need to get a reasonable cycle life.


To do that I'd use nickel wire, and try creating various depths of Ni(OH)2 and working out the internal resistance by discharge.  Knowing the nickel wire radius gives the electrode area, and from that and the total capacity (in amp-seconds - amp-hours divided by 3600) divided by Faraday's Number gives you the number of moles per square metre.  That should enable you to calculate how it will scale up.


Having calculated the amount of nickel you can convert to hydroxide per square metre, and the area of your electrode, you can work out how much nickel to plate to ensure that your plating doesn't break through when you form the hydroxide.  But first you need the results of the wire experiments.


Edison did a lot of experiments before he had his cell working to his satisfaction.  He also never got the environmentally friendly electric cars that were his dream.  But there has been another ninety years of research into nickel hydroxide electrodes in alkaline solutions since then.  Maybe Edison's dream can finally come true.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2005, 02:03:59 AM by thunderhead »

bob golding

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Re: Source of cheap nickel?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2005, 12:06:17 PM »
hi al,

another source of  nickel is the belts used in carbide heat tratment furnaces. if you are really lucky you might  convince the scrapyard they are stainless steel. good luck with the project,been one i have had on my list for a long while. nice thing about this board is  that as soon as someone starts getting there hands dirty there is always someone who knows something about it. keep us informed of progress.


bob golding

« Last Edit: May 19, 2005, 12:06:17 PM by bob golding »
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