Author Topic: DC Generator for Model Wind Turbine - Current Output  (Read 3771 times)

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hardy101

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DC Generator for Model Wind Turbine - Current Output
« on: January 29, 2008, 05:25:33 AM »
I'm a teacher planning a wind energy unit for my classroom.  I recently attended Michael Arquin's amazing Kidwind workshop in Fargo ND.  He uses and sells hobby motors that put out 3-4V max at moderate RPMs on a model turbine using a box fan as a wind source.  


I have tested some surplus DC hobby motors and found one that puts out 8V at even lower RPMs.  But the current is low enough that I can't even burn out a red LED hooked directly to the motor's terminals.  In other words, I have volts to spare, but little current.  Only about 80-90 mA.  Everyone talks about finding a low RPM hobby motor in order to generate adequate voltage with moderate wind speed.  I thought I hit the jackpot, but I don't think this motor will have enough power to do anything besides light up LEDs.  (I'm hoping to run miniature fuel cells, small motors, etc.)  What is this generator lacking that prevents it from generating enough current?  Is there a way to identify a good all around DC generator/motor for this purpose just by looking at its specs?


Thanks for your help!


Matt Hardy

« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 05:25:33 AM by (unknown) »

SparWeb

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Re: DC Generator for Model Wind Turbine
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2008, 11:03:30 PM »
Hi,


It won't be an enormous improvement, buy you will probably have more luck if you look very specifically for what are called "stepper motors".  What you describe as "small DC hobby motors" makes me think of the tiny things found in toys, so no wonder you can't get much out of them.


"Starting from first principles", (this is my revenge: I've had plenty of professors announce this phrase to me) motors typicall consist of a rotating component and stationary component.  Small motors usually have a rotor with many windings of wire on them and the current flows through brushes.  The housing has a pair of magnets, maybe one pole on one side, one pole on the other, or maybe four poles in some cases.


Producing the voltage is a matter of capturing the magnetic flux with loops of wire - the more loops of wire you have or the stronger your magnetic field, the more voltage that can be produced.


The current, however, is on the other side of Ohm's law.  If you have more windings of wire on the rotor, then the wire used is very thin, and there's a longer run of it.  You get more voltage from doing so, but the resistance of the winding prevents much current from flowing.  Catch 22.


Can you fix this?  Not really.  Not with "DC hobby motors", anyway.


This is why you will have more luck with stepper motors.  The design of a stepper reverses the order of magnets and wire.  It is often what we here are doing, when converting induction motors (yet another type) for use as generators.  You can find stepper motors with thicker wire because there's more room for it on the outside, and small permanent magnets work efficiently in the core.


That said, even if you can coax a few watts out of one, you are doing well.  They also have a tendency to "cog", because the attraction of the magnets in the rotor holds them in place before they can be turned to the next "tooth".


Try reading a bit of this for more suggestions:

http://www.c-realevents.demon.co.uk/steppers/stepmotor.htm


Computer recycling is common nowadays.  Printers and photocopiers by the thousands are thrown on the heap with them.  Finding motors out of them shouldn't be hard.  Little inkjet printers may not be ideal, and I've noticed that HP laser printers have a mix of tiny steppers and circuit-board-mounted motors that probably won't be useful to you.  Xerox and Toshiba commercial photocopiers... now that's the jackpot!


Strangely, the companies that conduct the recycling may not want to give up their prizes.  Not that I'm suggesting you snag a few that were dumped at their back door.  No no...


Nobody EVER does that!

« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 11:03:30 PM by SparWeb »
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Opera House

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Re: DC Generator for Model Wind Turbine - Current
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2008, 03:06:29 AM »
You have already exceeded my expectations.  There is just not that much energy which can be captured from your box fan.  That should be the first lesson. Changing motors won't make a difference.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 03:06:29 AM by Opera House »

Flux

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Re: DC Generator for Model Wind Turbine - Current
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2008, 04:18:39 AM »
The output of a generator is determined by the magnetic flux, the winding resistance and the speed of operation. Basically the bigger the magnets the more copper used and the speed at which you run it are the factors.


Small motors have small low cost magnets, very little room for winding and to cut cost they run at high speed. They are toys and cost is a first requirement.


How much better you want to go depends on the other factors. A tiny box fan can never produce significant power in normal wind speeds and if you attach a decent efficient generator you will stall it and hold the blade speed right down.


At best you must match the power source ( blades) to the generator. Toys remain toys, fine for demonstration but don't kid yourself you will ever get real power.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 04:18:39 AM by Flux »

tecker

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Re: DC Generator for Model Wind Turbine - Current
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2008, 05:13:53 AM »
 120 mm 24 volt computer fan . Just intercept the lugs from the stator with awg 21or 22  stranded and bring it out . A zubwoofer hub  bolted to the fan rotor in down wind configuration.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 05:13:53 AM by tecker »

ghurd

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Re: DC Generator for Model Wind Turbine
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2008, 08:11:05 AM »
Box fans do not supply 'clean wind'.  Whatever it is, it will work a lot better outside.


Here is a bit more about a stepper project...

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/4/25/184337/514


Here is a tiny bit about a computer or muffin fan...

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/1/15/19920/9192


"What is this generator lacking that prevents it from generating enough current?"

Low resistance coils, and enough size.


"Is there a way to identify a good all around DC generator/motor for this purpose just by looking at its specs?"

Not that I can figure out.


Best bet will be using the micro power to charge a battery, then use the battery for the motor.

It is easier to go for 6V than 12V.  Build a 6V battery out of 4 AA nicd or nimh.

G-

« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 08:11:05 AM by ghurd »
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tecker

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Re: DC Generator for Model Wind Turbine - Current
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2008, 01:28:25 PM »
If your thinking small your practical loads are laptop  cellphone ipod etc so 12 and 6 is easy with 24 volt computer fan . One thing that's cool about these fans is a back emf avilable off the comutator diodes in the 40 to 100 volt range  when running .
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 01:28:25 PM by tecker »

hardy101

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Re: DC Generator for Model Wind Turbine
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2008, 07:35:04 PM »
First and foremost - THANK YOU.  This was my first post on the board, and your quick responses have me very enthusiastic about this community of technology-savvy engineers.  I will try out the stepper/computer fan ideas.  As well as the indirect battery charging idea.  Thanks for the scientific explanations and the practical tips.  Back to the workshop!


Matt

« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 07:35:04 PM by hardy101 »