Author Topic: Power from Trees  (Read 7573 times)

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craig110

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Power from Trees
« on: March 14, 2006, 10:10:07 PM »
One of the projects I'm toying with involves harnessing power from swaying trees.  I did some "back of the envelope" calculations and concluded that many of our local trees sway in decent winds with around 4000 watts of power in each.  (80 foot pine tree at an estimated weight of around 3000 pounds swaying 1 foot per second in the middle.)  That kind of power I don't want to ignore, especially since we have dozens of these trees...  I post this to open a discussion on this topic.


One key aspect is that the trees do not sway in synch.  We have a mix of pine trees and oaks with differing diameters and heights of both of those types of trees.  Therefore, the trees are not all impacted by a wind gust in the same way.  Watching the trees "out back," it isn't uncommon to see them not only swaying by different amounts, but also swaying in differing directions.  Therefore, the approach I've been taking is to make use of the changing gap between the trees.  The diagram below shows a wire between the trees that pulls on, and thus spins, a generator shaft when the distance between the trees is increasing.  When the gap between the trees is decreasing, a pawl lets the gear freely run backwards and the tension weight takes up the slack.



(The diagram shows the wire being attached to a chain near the generator shaft.  This allows for a smaller diameter shaft turning radius than what would be needed to not stress a heavy-duty wire.)


In general, I find this approach attractive for three reasons.  First, trees are good for the environment and I don't favor cutting them down to make a clearing for a windmill if a tall-enough tower to reach over the trees (120 foot?) isn't practical or would be against zoning rules.  Second, this design lets the generator be on the ground where it is a lot easier to tinker with and, third, you can slave together multiple trees to just one or two generators instead of having to build a genny per tower.


(Efficiently blending together the power from multiple trees isn't easy since the trees have differing speeds and energy.  I have an approach, but since that part might be patentable I'm not going to get into that aspect yet.)


I'm about ready to begin a test installation once I figure out a good way of getting to the attachment and first pully locations 50 feet or so up in the tree. 8-[  Has anyone tried something like this?  If so, any pointers?  If nobody has tried this, are you interested in hearing how it works?


Craig




As ADMIN pointed out this is marginal for being on topic and it seems to have wandered into the realm of wacky ideas. So I am making it read only to keep things topical here.


Editor.


« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 10:10:07 PM by (unknown) »

hvirtane

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2006, 03:28:58 PM »
The idea itself is not completely new.

I've seen a text describing the same idea,

but I don't know, if anybody has actually

built anything like it.


- Hannu

« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 03:28:58 PM by hvirtane »

picmacmillan

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2006, 03:49:09 PM »
to my knowledge craig, i dont believe there is any way to harness any usefull power in this manner...every time we use a gear or a pulley or anything else, we always ending up using more energy than can be produced...i could be wrong and except my humble apology if i do not understand, but as an engineer myself, i fully understand the concept of having everything in tension as described in your diagram, but as you have stated there is a piece of the puzzle you are saving( and rightfully so), if you intend to take this a step further...from a linear standpoint i cant really see how you intend to create any usefull power in tension when you will need to use other forces to get to compression??..not sure if youre following me...just my humble opinion, but search on..ideas like yours is what this board is about..continually trying to advance good luck craig...pciskter
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 03:49:09 PM by picmacmillan »

Darren73

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2006, 04:21:02 PM »
Hi Craig,

like the idea, you might look at using a one way clutch, (the ones I've seen look like a small needle roller bearing until you strip them down), I've seen them used on some of the magnetic resistance bikes so that when you stop pedeling the flywheel keeps turning but doesn't drag the pedels round, also would have lower losses than a pawl, the flywheel could also allow for a smoother output profile ie keeping spinning while the trees relax


regards

Darren

« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 04:21:02 PM by Darren73 »

craig110

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2006, 04:22:02 PM »
Sorry, Pciskter, I didn't follow your question precisely but I believe you are suggesting that the tension weight will prevent any energy from being extractable.  Let me try a different explanation, though.  The weight is just to keep tension on the wire so that if the trees move 3 inches apart, the three inches isn't just taken up in slack between the trees but results in pulling the chain that drives the generator shaft.  Pulling the chain does require the trees to pull the weight up, of course, which is a waste of energy.  However, between trees that are reasonably close to each other, such as 10-15 feet, the amount of tension weight needed should be low compared to the pulling strength of the trees.


(The part I'm keeping quiet involves adding together multiple trees, so there aren't any hidden areas when it comes to talking about a simple one-tree diagram.)


Craig

« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 04:22:02 PM by craig110 »

craig110

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2006, 04:23:08 PM »
Thanks, Darren, I'll look into them.


Craig

« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 04:23:08 PM by craig110 »

whatsnext

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2006, 06:25:48 PM »
OK, I have a question. What keep the trees from swaying in tandem now that you've connected them with a device that extracts power when they don't? I just don't think there is as much power there as you think. If a tree really has to dissipate 4000 watts continously in a wind storm I'm wondering what form it takes. Power in has to equal power out so I'm just wondering where it all goes, and why forests don't burst into flames every time the wind blows.

Just wondering, John..
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 06:25:48 PM by whatsnext »

Titantornado

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2006, 07:03:26 PM »
Hey!  How about using that wind genny tower you no longer need as your riser up to the pulley.  It won't sway, and you can get the full motion of the tree.  Also, take the line from the tower pulley, to the tree, through a block, and back to terminate at the tower and you double your line travel to the genny.  Motion energy in the trees, I'd estimate, must be high.  A little gearing up at the genny probably would have little robbing effect from the tree's motion.  Heck, you could even add some camo "sail" material between branches to increase motion!  Sounds like a neat idea, though a bit higher windspeeds will be required compared to turbines.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 07:03:26 PM by Titantornado »

georgeodjungle

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2006, 07:37:08 PM »
ya. cool idea.

you could have one one each tree.

lots of power.

love to hear how it works out for ya.

p.s.

unlike popular believes trees aren't that good for the enviroment.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 07:37:08 PM by georgeodjungle »

wpowokal

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2006, 07:49:58 PM »
I suspect the reason this idea is not in mass production, is for the wind strength required to produce meaninfull motion, you could have a simple wind turbine making power.


allan

« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 07:49:58 PM by wpowokal »
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craig110

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2006, 07:52:44 PM »
Hmmm, it would be interesting to take infrared photos of the trees before and during periods of gusts.  Since the swaying is from the flexing of the wood, my guess is that it does get warmer.  Given the high surface area to volume ratio, though, it would likely dissipate the heat back into the gusts rather quickly.


Keeping the trees from swaying in lockstep shouldn't be hard.  As long as the force needed to turn the generator shaft is less than what the trees impart, the trees will be able to pull the wire and sway. If I get 1/4 of the tree's energy, I'll be as happy as a clam.


Craig

« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 07:52:44 PM by craig110 »

craig110

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2006, 07:58:04 PM »
Oh, I agree.  If my property was big enough for a windmill and if I didn't live right by a small airport, I'd probably go that route instead.


Craig

« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 07:58:04 PM by craig110 »

jomoco

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2006, 08:06:26 PM »
Hey there Craig,


You wouldn't happen to be a lumberjack would you?


Your idea itself is not entirely novel, though your approach may be.

I suggest you google USPTO.gov and pull up patent number 6825573

It may provide you with some valuable insights into how to collect, store and generate substantial amounts of power from large trees swaying in the wind.


And while I wish you good luck in building a successful prototype for your own use,I hope you have no intention of trying to market a commercial prototype because number one, it's very hard and expensive to do, and number two the patent on the website is mine!


I applaud your efforts and ingenuity in attempting to harness the tremendous power of nature for use as clean renewable energy, and stand willing to help you in your efforts, as long as its for private not commercial use.


Good luck and keep us up to date on your progress!


jomoco

« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 08:06:26 PM by jomoco »

whatsnext

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2006, 08:51:33 PM »
Are you sure that one is yours?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 08:51:33 PM by whatsnext »

craig110

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2006, 09:31:09 PM »
I second the "you sure that one is yours?" question.  The abstract for the patent you pointed me to is:


"A flywheel, a cooling fan and a recoil starter are mounted on a crank shaft of an engine, thereby forming an engine unit. A power generating body is mounted on the end of the engine unit with the aid of an adapter intervening therebetween. The adapter and a rotor shaft are interconnected by means of a through bolt. A control system of the engine generator may be changed to an AVR type or an inverter type control system by removing the through bolt and replacing the power generating body with another. Accordingly, it is possible to provide an engine generator which allows the control system to be replaced with another type control system by easy replacing work."


Which doesn't sound like what I was talking about.  I had done a patent search a few weeks ago and ran across a patent that dealt with using swaying trees to wind a spring-based motor that, when full, would unlock and run a generator for a little while.  Is that the one you are talking about?


Craig

« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 09:31:09 PM by craig110 »

jomoco

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2006, 09:37:15 PM »
Sorry about that Craig,


Would you believe Patent Number 6825574


oops! too many patent numbers are cluttering my mind!


jomoco

« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 09:37:15 PM by jomoco »

craig110

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2006, 09:44:28 PM »
Oh, ok, so it was the other patent I had read.  Our approaches (especially the part that I didn't describe about blending together the power from multiple trees) are quite different, so I don't forsee infringement issues.


By the way, have you been successful in selling a product or selling / licensing the patent?  I haven't seen any products along your patent's lines yet.


Craig

« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 09:44:28 PM by craig110 »

jomoco

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2006, 10:06:55 PM »
Yes Craig that's the one!


If you can pull up the referenced patents that are listed under mine, you'll find one from some guy in germany whose patent is extremely similar to your concept, and will most likely preclude your ability to file a patent with your current design. I'm not sure how well versed you are with patent law, but believe me it can be quite bewildering as well as expensive.


If you can build a successful prototype with your current design, and actually get truly useful amounts of electricity from it, then it might be worth further investment at the patent office, but I doubt it, as it cost me many thousands of dollars to get them to realise that the german fellows system was distinctly different from mine.


Any way, check it out and make sure before you spend your money.


Sorry for the numbers goof up


jomoco

« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 10:06:55 PM by jomoco »

jomoco

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2006, 10:26:27 PM »
I haven't licensed it yet Craig, but I have built a successful prototype that put out 6kilowatts for two minutes and slowly fell from there in the next minute.


Just as I found a way to achieve a steady power output, I got sidetracked into a new project called a Pendulating Gravity Sail that is currently sucking up most of my time and money.


A word of advice, be careful about what you post here if you don't want big brother or big industry to know all about it. I went to a meeting recently with a very big name in the power generation field here in California, and they had every article and post that I have ever made on the web. I didn't particularly care, but it was somewhat creepy.


Good Luck!


jomoco

« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 10:26:27 PM by jomoco »

JF

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2006, 04:54:04 AM »
Dear Friends


The discussions concerning - "patents" - is indeed a sad one - and one of the very serious problems which should not be an issue on a discussion board - open to all - and with the objective of providing friendly and highly professional support and assistance on a cooperative and friendly reciprocial basis to others.


And this is perhaps one of the differences of opinion between - f.ex. Microhard etc and open-source etc - and also the differences between "CopyRight" and "CopyLeft" and/or "CopyWrong".


Concerning "Power from Trees" - I believe that David Stabb has the first and last word on these issues - full illustrations etc of his different ideas and designs from the early 1970's are freely available - and can be retrived by a dilligent search of the relevant litterature - and as also published in the USA.


With greetings and best wishes to all - JF

« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 04:54:04 AM by JF »

TomW

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Patents
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2006, 06:44:52 AM »
JF;


Yes, agreed on the sad state of patents. I feel it is an evil in this world.


It assumes that 2 folks can't possibly come up with the same idea independently. Obviously that is not true.


Patents in no way restrict you from using any idea for personal use, however.


Ok thats my rant for today. Tomorrow we talk about vaporware MPPT for home brewed wind power!


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 06:44:52 AM by TomW »

wooferhound

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2006, 07:12:57 AM »
Here is another discussion on that very subject . . .

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/2/17/17446/4352

« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 07:12:57 AM by wooferhound »

craig110

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2006, 07:20:07 AM »
No problem on the number goof.  If I was perfect, maybe then I'd complain.  ;-)


I'm somewhat familiar with the IP laws and yes, I'll check out the referenced patents.  My hunch is that the part that I've described here would not be patentable due to the non-obviousness requirement.  The part that I suspect will be patentable is the part I purposely didn't describe: a method of efficiently blending together the power from multiple sources that are as unpredictable as swaying trees.


Would you mind telling me a bit more about your specific setup?  How much power did you get, what kind of trees did you connect to, and how far did they sway both pre- and post-implementation?


Craig

« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 07:20:07 AM by craig110 »

craig110

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2006, 07:41:34 AM »
Thanks for the pointer to David Stabb.  I've ordered a copy of the Survival Scrapbook that has his article.


As to whether patents are good or evil, they are both.  Yes, they can add competitive pressures but this tends to bring things to public knowledge (through the patent application) faster and it offers a temporary reward for the inherent cost of inventing instead of just profiting by copying someone else's work.  All tradeoffs have both pros and cons.


Craig

« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 07:41:34 AM by craig110 »

JF

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2006, 09:00:05 AM »
Dear Friends


A second comment - many thanks to Mr Wooferhound for having drawn attention to the previous discussion and the great extent of the most valued archive on the board.


I enclose some sources for David Stabb.



  1. :  Survival Scrapbooks # 3 - Energy by Stefan A. Szczelkun - has been mentioned  - Unicorn Bookshop Brighton UK and Seattle USA - 1973 - Lib Cong - 73 - 82211
  2. -pages of illustrations.
  3. :  Radical Technology - Peter Harper et al. - Undercurrents UK and Random House USA - 1976 - ISBN - 0-394-73093-3 - illustration on page 79 - "Stabb-1" follows below.





3:  The Autonomous House - Brenda & Robert Vale - Thames & Hudson UK - 1975

An interesting comment from this book follows below





With greetings and best wishes to all - JF

« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 09:00:05 AM by JF »

craig110

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2006, 09:01:00 AM »
Thanks for the extra info, jomoco.  A 6Kw generation rate for two minutes is pretty nice, but that would be when the spring got "unsprung" and was spinning the generator which could be once every few minutes or could be once a day.  How often did the spring trip the generator?  Have you measured (or even estimated) the total output over an hour?


And yes, thank you for the reminder that anything said here is public knowledge which is why I draw the boundary so firmly between what I'll discuss or not.  I view the slaving together of multiple trees to be a goal / problem that is rather obvious to anyone who would play in this area.  It is the potential solutions that are sensitive.


Craig


p.s.  Sad to say, I can relate very well to getting sidetracked on new projects... :-(

« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 09:01:00 AM by craig110 »

kell

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2006, 11:45:37 AM »
You guys.  PLeAsE.

Use carriage return if the first post is a mile wide.

Type a few dozen characters and hit return.

Otherwise EveRy pOst in the whole thread is a mile wide.

No'm sayin?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 11:45:37 AM by kell »

ghurd

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2006, 12:42:06 PM »
I won't even tell the 'Big Boys' my concepts anymore. Over the phone or whatever.

Even if it's not patentable.

G-
« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 12:42:06 PM by ghurd »
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The Crazy Noob

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2006, 12:46:40 PM »
wouldn't it be better to use a piston generator (there has been a thread on them a few weeks ago) like in a shake-up-flashlight.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 12:46:40 PM by The Crazy Noob »

craig110

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2006, 01:12:03 PM »
I pondered that, but the problem is dealing with a piston that could move inches or feet depending upon the amount of wind.  It seems that if one makes a long cylinder to handle the maximum anticipated travel, then most of the copper in that cylinder is wasted most of the time.  If, on the other hand, the copper area is made small to handle the average motion cases, then the larger gusts that create a lot of powerful motion is wasted.  Besides, I'd like to stay away from having to build another generator (of whatever type) per tree.


Craig

« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 01:12:03 PM by craig110 »

zap

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2006, 01:54:17 PM »
kell you might want to give the browser Firefox 1.5 a try... you might just fall in love.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 01:54:17 PM by zap »

ghurd

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2006, 01:59:23 PM »
The slow even cycling of a tree in the wind would mean a lot, and I mean a LOT of turns to get even 12V output.  Maybe hundreds of thousands, even millions?

G-

« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 01:59:23 PM by ghurd »
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whatsnext

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Re: Power from Trees
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2006, 02:33:50 PM »
G, I'm pretty sure we have another inventer confusing force with power. 4000 watts/tree seems wildly optimistic.

John...
« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 02:33:50 PM by whatsnext »