Built a new AC hydro generator!

[Volvo farmer]

thanks but I was in macro! some times I need to hit it several times to free the iris so the light saturation can be adjusted lol, it does great in normal photos, but as you can or rather can't see it has troubles being actually close, if I messed with it long enough it would have worked but for what I wanted to show it did the job albeit blurry.

Try pushing the shutter button half way down, on most of my cameras it forces the thing to focus in macro before you actually shoot the picture.

[XeonPony]

I usually do that, I got the Camera for free so I'm not going to complain, it's a 4 mega pixel and superior to any thing ells I had even in its some what gimped functionality!

Any way's added another 19 feet to the 18 feet I had and built a more robust dam and it was out putting 115v unloaded, with the 25w fluorescent it drops to about 101.9V  So I'm getting there Need to take it apart (The impeller housing) and clean the blades again as it appears I got a clogged one.

FYI there are no jets, just the valuating and impeller.

Oh and pics, enjoy

Edit:
Ran spell check.
Added some text.

[hydrosun]

I'm wondering if you have a pressure gauge by the  turbine. That could tell you the difference between static and running pressure. It will tell you if you pipe is big enough, or some blockage is occuring. Looking at your intake the pipe seems to be near the surface of the water. In my experience that can cause it to suck in air and lose pressure. Usually you want the pipe to be several times it diameter below the water surface.
Chris

[XeonPony]

I'm wondering if you have a pressure gauge by the turbine. That could tell you the difference between static and running pressure. It will tell you if you pipe is big enough, or some blockage is occurring. Looking at your intake the pipe seems to be near the surface of the water. In my experience that can cause it to suck in air and lose pressure. Usually you want the pipe to be several times it diameter below the water surface.
Chris

Soon I'll be adding a secondary knife valve and a pressure gauge right on the main intake of it for that very reason, as atm, the only gauge is through a 120' of 3/4' coming off a T.
I think I'll try and get them installed today would love to know what the exact pressure is.
 I can say I that the turbine it self acts as the restrictor as with out it I drain my setling pound in seconds and with it the stream will keep it well filled.

You are dead on it is to close to the surface as I miss calculated the over all height of the dam, my simple fix will be to add a 45 degree fitting on it aimed down wards and add a vortex arrestor above it for good messure currently I managed to stop any more vortexes from forming but they will start again as the water drops. Eventualy I'll be adding on more 4 inch pipe and try for a better dam/setling pond site and hope fully not manage to make the same mistake!

[hydrosun]

The pressure gauge will tell you if you should go to  a larger penstock pipe if the pressure drop is excessive.  When the pipe is wide open the gpm flows fast enough to lose almost all the pressure. With the restriction of the pump the flow is less so the water flows slower and the pressure drop is less. You could measure the outflow volume and calculate the drop through the length of pipe you have. Just easier to put on the pressure gauge just before the pump.  If the tee is close to that point and there isn't any flow in the 3/4 pipe the pressure gauge at the same height should be the same even if it is 120 feet away.
Chris

[XeonPony]

Well ran some tests and like I thought my supply line is more then adequate, so I'm just going to keep running it up only in 4" now, I need more pressure then I do flow.

The gauge is at a higher height then the turbine is. I used to design systems for liquid cooling computers so I'm quite well versed in fluid dynamics as far as pipe friction losses and head pressure and the like. I know what I need now is to continue with my plan to run 100 or so more feet in 4" stock,  That and get a non crippled motor for the generator!

The master plan is to eventually have 200' of 4" 100' of 3" and 100 or 200 feet of 2" as the final leg up to the turbine at that point I should have more then enough to run this set up until I can get a pelton wheel going.

[ghurd]

Stupid question.
Did you look at the cost of 3" and 4"?
Last place I looked, 3" was more than 4".
G-

[XeonPony]

3 inch is a tad less then 4" but not by much, but I still need the size drop to develop the velocity that I want at the pump head that and eas of routing it.

[hydrosun]

I hate to keep hammering on this but the idea is to keep the pipe large enough so the water doesn't have to move very fast. The faster the water has to move because the pipe is smaller, the more pressure is lost. That's lost power.  The best setup is reducing the size smoothly at the last moment, just like a nozzle in reaction turbines like peltons. That's where you want the velocity with minimum loss of pressure.   Of course if there is other reasons to reduce the pipe size like needing more flexible pipe, but that's a compromise.  But don't use smaller pipe on purpose to increase the velocity. A pressure gauge will show you how much pressure is being lost with your setup.  It may show that the pressure loss is not enough to worry about.
Chris

[XeonPony]

I know, but for routing and the ability to blend it in with the area that was the best way I could figure out, personaly I'd like to go 4" the whole way, but cost cost cost! and the very last, routing. I may skip the 3" area if I can figure out how to rout it around a group of trees.

[XeonPony]

Well this week end after much blood, nicks, and, swearing got a new base built for the turbine, and my water treatment and storage system mostly built.

The barrels will have a light proof shed built around them and the system will be flushed with 6% bleach be for being put in to full service, the UV unit will be modified to be 12V and be rigged to come on as the barrels are filled then shut down till they are empty again. The pre filter stage will be moved into the housing that I'm building, it will be fully insulated when compleated with polystyrene foam.

I'll be starting a new thread in the water section soon with more detailed info and the pics will be then on out updated only in that thread.

After adding in the new knife valve I get a static reading of 20psi at the pre filter stage.

Edit:
The air vent for the barrels will be filtered to .5 Microns to ensure no contaminants get into the system and the air may be treated with an ozone injection system (I am still debating the air treatment systems atm)

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

3 inch is a tad less then 4" but not by much, but I still need the size drop to develop the velocity that I want at the pump head that and eas of routing it.

Look.

You don't develop velocity by restricting the pipe.  The velocity you get is directly proportional to the dynamic pressure just behind the opening, REGARDLESS of the size of the opening.  The trick is to keep that pressure as high as possible at the point where the water leaves the pipe.  (Yes the water must move faster in the narrower pipe than in the wider pipe feeding it.  But that happens because the narrowing of the pipe produces a back pressure that slows the water in the wider pipe, to get the acceleration as it transitions to the narrow one.  You'd have gotten higher flow rate out the final opening if you'd run the fat pipe the full distance.)

The max you'll get is the weight per cubic inch of water times the number of inches of head, but you derate that by the pressure drop from friction with the pipe.  The narrower the pipe the more drop per unit distance at a given flow speed (due to smaller average distance from the wall to any given slug of water) and even moreso the more drop per unit distance at any given flow in galons per minute.

To maximize the flow from an opening of a given size, make the pipe as fat as possible ALL THE WAY FROM THE SOURCE TO THE OPENING.  Then bring it down to the opening size just as it approaches the opening.

If the pipe were totally frictionless , the opening pointed upward, and there was no wind resistance, the jet of water would emerge at a speed that would take it up to the height of the surface of the water at the source, regardless of the size of the opening.  Another way to say it:  If the pipe were frictionless the water would emerge from the opening (of any size) at the speed it would achieve in a no-air-friction fall from the surface height of the water at the source.

But pipe ISN'T frictionless, and narrower pipe drops pressure more per unit length than wider pipe.

So if you can afford four inch rather than three inch pipe (and you have more than about a quarter-inch opening at the turbine end) you should go with four inch.  The difference between three and four inch pipe, when it comes to friction and pressure drop, is very large.

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

I know, but for routing and the ability to blend it in with the area that was the best way I could figure out, personaly I'd like to go 4" the whole way, but cost cost cost! and the very last, routing. I may skip the 3" area if I can figure out how to rout it around a group of trees.

If you just have a short section where you need it t be 3" you could do a Y connection upstream and downstream of that area and do two 3" runs through it, hooked in parallel.  A 4" pipe is just a tad short of twice the cross section of a 3" (and fluid friction makes it even better than that) so doing two 3" sections in parallel should get your pressure drop through the problem area down to roughly that you'd have gotten if you'd done one 4" run.

[XeonPony]

I know, but for routing and the ability to blend it in with the area that was the best way I could figure out, personaly I'd like to go 4" the whole way, but cost cost cost! and the very last, routing. I may skip the 3" area if I can figure out how to rout it around a group of trees.

If you just have a short section where you need it t be 3" you could do a Y connection upstream and downstream of that area and do two 3" runs through it, hooked in parallel.  A 4" pipe is just a tad short of twice the cross section of a 3" (and fluid friction makes it even better than that) so doing two 3" sections in parallel should get your pressure drop through the problem area down to roughly that you'd have gotten if you'd done one 4" run.

It is indeed a thought! Will have to look into that spot again and see.

[XeonPony]

Added another 50 feet of pipe and built a 400gallon dam (another 2 to 3 feet above intake) and am now geting 140V 34Hz @ no load off the high speed winding of a 240v motor, dropped the ballast capacitores down to 175Uf apx.

At 108 watts the voltage droppes to 114V at 30 Hz

Pics to follow

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Added another 50 feet of pipe and built a 400gallon dam (another 2 to 3 feet above intake) and am now geting 140V 34Hz @ no load off the high speed winding of a 240v motor, dropped the ballast capacitores down to 175Uf apx.

At 108 watts the voltage droppes to 114V at 30 Hz

Pics to follow

Soundin' good.

114V is nice and round for using transformers if you want to convert it to some other voltage, too, and 30 Hz makes it doubly convenient:  Just use a transformer rated for twice the voltage (both primary and secondary) at 60 Hz and you won't saturate it.  B-)

[XeonPony]

as prommised! pics

[TomW]

Not to divert your tread but what is up with the pictures showing as attachments lately? I have to download them to view them?

Is it just me?

Seems the server should be serving them as photos if we click them?

New the last couple days.

This picture i included in "url" tags. An item I have on Feebay:



I will use the additional options to put one in too. How we wired my dump load controller:



Tom

EDIT>>>>
OK, that worked correctly for me must be something to do with how users are doing it?

Sorry for the diversion from the topic.

[ghurd]

Not to divert your tread but what is up with the pictures showing as attachments lately? I have to download them to view them?

Is it just me?

Seems the server should be serving them as photos if we click them?

New the last couple days.

Tom

EDIT>>>>
OK, that worked correctly for me must be something to do with how users are doing it?

Sorry for the diversion from the topic.

Here, it makes me scan them for viruses, download them, choose what program to view them with, wait for the program to start up, then I can see the pic.  PITA because it does it one pic at a time.

There was a post a week or 2 ago where sometimes the pic was in the story, and sometimes it was not.  (maybe an e-bike?)
Did not seem to be any rhyme or reason to it over several days, so I figured it was a Vista issue.
Then Norm couldn't see his, but they showed up in the story for me.

Also Sorry for the diversion from the topic.
G-

[kurt]

personally i fix them whenever i run into them its faster than downloading them anyway for someone with moderator powers.

[XeonPony]

UPDATE:

I just acquired a 5Hp pump that uses a run cap system! Currently putting in new Bering's and lubing it up, pics to follow.

[XeonPony]

Well My camera died hence why the pics never followed!

Recently added 260 feet of pipe that got me up to 40psi static 16 to 20 dynamic depending on load.

Currently I have a 120V 70w heater, 2*25w compact fluorescents,  240V 500w base board all hooked up and am producing 130 to 135V average.

The Turbine has 85 to 95gpm @ 16 to 20 psi going through it at the above ratings.

When I get a new cam will be taking picks of the newer set up.

Currently working on acquiring a true Francis turbine head and will be putting it on a 200pound fly wheel & a 10Kw 1800RPM  Alternator with a field regulation system and a servo loop to control the RPM via throttling the water flow.

[WoodWaterWheel]

Go to http://www.waterwheelplace.com/low_rpm_alternators.html and use the calculator in the middle of the page.       Since your hottub pump isn't super efficient use .40 for the efficiency factor.
Spencer

[hydrosun]

I didn't notice the last posting last fall until now. If your static head is 40 psi and the dynamic head is 16 to 20 psi you could get more power out of the system by limiting the flow of water. You get the maximum power through a pipe when you limit the head loss to a maximum of 40%  So the maximum loss in your case would be 16 psi and running head would be 24 psi. Your setup is working but when you make a change to another setup you would want to limit the gpm through the turbine to gain more power. So the  throat of the francis turbine would need to be smaller than the pump you are using now. Unless you increase the size of the pipe feeding your setup.
Chris

[XeonPony]

The end of the pipe run will be made all 4" eventually then be narrowed to 2" right at the pump, so far I have bench marked it to 356W @ 110V and it runs rock stable and comfortably warm to the touch. I still need way more head be for it runs at its proper ratings, this is a temp site I'm at.

Min head static: 60PSI;  Min flow rate: 110GPM  for full power which is 230V @ 2Kw (Yes that is factoring in the de-rating as a generator)

BTY: I am now at 50psi static and around 20 to 25psi dynamic depending on load, I have a 2" full port gate valve to regulate the water flow.
I did have a 2" partial port ball valve (1" port) but it cost me power not gained it, the pumps rely on volume for the voltage and pressure for the current, which both sort of go hand in hand.

[XeonPony]

Well got the new synchronous system started, so here are the picks, the new site has much higher heads so the availible power should be in the 3Kw range at best.

[XeonPony]

Made a base plate to mount the alternater to and got the shims made for the pillow block berings. Will post a schematic of the electronic govenor in time along with some updated pictures.

[micheldiscoide]

Hello
 Congratulations on your achievement, take time to visit my site
 
---removed---

on Construction of a low speed generator
 cordially
 Micheldiscoide


DamonHD: Please, no links (or in profiles, etc) until you have built a reputation here, which has traditionally been 50 posts.  By all means *describe* what you have done and attach a (small) photo or two...

[XeonPony]

With help of a friend in the robotics field we where able to design a very simple electric govenor using a 555, 74ls00, 4093.

The 555 is a multibrator that takes the input puls then fires out a pulse set to 60Hz SO as the input puls gets out of synch with the mutibrator it cuases the 74ls14 to out put hi on one line or the other, that gets fed into a NAD schmit trigger set up as a pulse streatcher to amplify the error, that's then fed into an HBridge to drive the servo valve.

this is the start of the govenor, I want to add in redundancy and some feed back capabilities. The design goal is: Simple no digital or pll loops, keep it all analog and all based chips that can be easily salvaged from old scrapped electronics, High reliability.

[mike_belben]

so what was the final outcome?

[XeonPony]

been trying to work on the govenor as all analog for the new one but started to switch over to a micro controller, the old pump modded one is still running well.

Still need to make the final base for the new one as well so that's the only hang up. Once that is don I'll be posting pictures.