Author Topic: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin  (Read 6182 times)

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(unknown)

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120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« on: August 11, 2005, 09:52:36 PM »
hello, everyone.  what a great resource!  My head is swimming about electrical stuff, and I've searched and read through the archives, but I don't find my answer.


I am a newbie to this all, but a pretty smart cookie, and find myself in a bit of a time crunch.  I have the opportunity to buy into a beautiful off-grid cabin (a life long dream) on a communal trust property with a year-round river and beautifully functioning micro-hydro generating plant (pelton wheel), that gives plenty of juice.  


The pelton wheels keep a 24v battery rack charged, and the juice is converted to 120vac and run to the nearby cabin (actually the system produces more than enough power...if anything, too much!)


Anyway, they ran a regular 120v buried electric line up the hill (about 1200 feet through rock)from the converter to my prospective cabin, but ...and here's the problem....the electricity arrives at 90v....due to what they call "line loss."   Poo.


The only thing I need electric power at the cabin for is my personal computer equipment and peripherials, and, if the gods will, my personal electronics (TV, home theatre)...the rest of the cabin's basic power needs are met alternatively, and I don't use high watt personal devices.


Is there a simple and elegant way to boost the arriving 90v to 120v to run my electronics?


I've been reading up on transformers (recommended by an electrical engineer), reburying  heavy line, automatic volatage regulators w/UPS, etc. etc....and about converting/inverting to and from 24/120/12....my head is swimming!  seems like there ought to be a little black box I can plug the 90v incoming into, and VOILA! out comes clean 120v...or am I dreaming?


any help/advice is appreciated. rewards are negotiable ;-)


my email is jtwining [at] peoplepc.com


joan  

« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 09:52:36 PM by (unknown) »

drdongle

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2005, 04:21:25 PM »
You didn't give much info, so I can only make general suggestions. It sounds like the generator, batteries and inverter are all located together at the stream and the 120 VAC is run over the 1200 ft cable. Larger wire would work, but that much copper is not cheep. If you used a transformer on the generator side and kicked the 120 VAC to say 480 V and then dropped it back down to 120 at the cabin this would accomplish what you want but I can't suggest a specific transformer, as we don't know how many amps you need/use. Transformers are also not cheep.

I think that the simplest and probably the cheapest way would to get a generator with a higher output( preferably 200-400 VAC) then you could send it over the existing cable and then convert it to 24 V at the cabin and move the batteries and inverter to the cabin.

Hope this helps
« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 04:21:25 PM by (unknown) »

hiker

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2005, 04:24:25 PM »
 just run another lenght of thicker wire from your power source to the cabin...

you could use both runs of wire hooked in parell for even less line loss..

right know your your current line is to light............

with thicker wire you should"nt have any line loss..
« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 04:24:25 PM by (unknown) »
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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2005, 05:12:22 PM »
Excellent suggestion. This has my vote.


The problem with 90v at the end:

No load the voltage should be 120v

Loaded seems to be 90v.


If you use an auto transformer to step up the voltage to 120v, changing the load will change the voltage. Auto transformers are not a regulator. You would have to keep changing the setting depending on the load.


With 30 volts dropped this equates to 25% power loss. (does not seem to be a problem to you)


Running a second wire is costly plus a lot of work to but it below ground.

The second wire reduces the voltage loss to half. So 105. Not good enough.

Replacing the wire with one in the 2% loss range will be very costly.


Boosting the voltage to 240, will have the same results as 2x wire. Voltage will still be 105. The voltage received is going to change based on the load. (3kw 120 to 220 transformers on Ebay run $60, need two) Boosting to 480 would be better, but I do not know of a low cost 480v transformer.


Hydro generators are not usually big in KW. It's the 24 hours a day that make them big.

By boosting the generators output voltage you reduce the losses since the current is lower,  then step it down to charge the battery which runs the inverter at the house! Great.


If messing with the generator bothers you, Using a 24 to 220 then 220 to 24 would be another option. With the battery and inverter at the house. The load dump can be at the house and powered directly by the generator, skip going through the inverter. The generator is most likely 3 phase. So need 3 transformers or 2 in the Scott T configuration

Have fun.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 05:12:22 PM by (unknown) »

wooferhound

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2005, 06:06:08 PM »
I'm playing with my favorite Voltage Loss Calculator

http://www.electrician.com/vd_calculator.html

and it looks like you possabaly have a run of #8 wire going 1200 feet to your cabin.

You can play with this calculator and decide for yourself what the acceptable voltage loss would be for any size of wire. It would be real cool if you could find an inverter that puts out 150-160vac so the losses put you at around 120 vac. I have no idea if this type of inverter exists.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 06:06:08 PM by (unknown) »

TomW

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2005, 06:07:44 PM »
Heres an off the wall idea that might be cheap and effective compared to bigger wire, etc.


Put together a couple batteries and an inverter at your point of use. Charge batteries either thru a proper transformer or whatever then use that power to run the inverter as needed. Since it is hydro you can pull a trickle charge at low current 24/7 to match your needs.


Not all thought out but just an idea.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 06:07:44 PM by (unknown) »

Experimental

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2005, 06:27:42 PM »
         My bet, would be #10 direct buried wire, and my next bet, would be a splice in that wire, somewhere between the batt shack, and the cabin --- i say that, because of the leingth of the run !!

        Pretty hard to find that cable in one leingth, and if it resimbles "romex", I,ll bet there is several splices in it !!

        The gage and type, should be written on the wire -- let us know what is on the wire -- we can help you more !!   Bill H........
« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 06:27:42 PM by (unknown) »

TomW

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2005, 06:34:54 PM »
Bill;


Very good points, also.


T

« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 06:34:54 PM by (unknown) »

bob g

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2005, 08:13:12 PM »
my vote is for an auto transformer, or buck transformer at the cabin as the easiest solution to your problem if your loads are relatively consistant.


or perhaps a variac, if all you are running is a computer and a couple of compact fl. lights. coupled with a voltmeter, you could dial in just what you want.


not the perfect solution, not the most elegant, or the all encompassing correct method, but a cheap method.


and as previously stated i would suspect a bad splice also. seen that many times over the years in well installations that require splicing romex over long distances.


if it is buried and not markers or provision were made to service the splices, you are on your own.


if the splices are servicable, and proven to be good:

stepping up to 440/480 would solve the problem, but you would be dealing with truely lethal voltages, so caution is in order. probably best having a qualified electician help with this one if you are not comfortable with it.


bob g

« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 08:13:12 PM by (unknown) »
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inode buddha

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2005, 09:48:48 PM »
Hi newbie. I think you might be looking for what is called an "isolation transformer". As the name implies, this kind of transformer isolates whatever happens on one end of the line from the other end. You can usually set whatever output volts you want on them. Way back when  I did hi-fi repair, the shop ran on them because we needed very accurate power. They're not really cheap though. You might be able to score a surplus unit. If I recall, we used the "TrippLite" brand.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 09:48:48 PM by (unknown) »

benjamindees

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2005, 10:44:07 PM »
The little black box you want is a transformer, a step-up transformer specifically.  They are simple to build, a couple of wires wrapped around an iron core.  You may even be able to purchase one that will work if you need it quickly.  Just get one that will step the voltage from whatever it is to whatever you want it to be.


A better idea, though, is to do what the power companies do.  Put a transformer on each end.  On the generating side, you step the voltage up (say to 240 V), and on the usage end, you step it back down to 120.


Line losses will be less.  As long as the cable is rated for the higher voltage (it probably is), there's no need to run new cable.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 10:44:07 PM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2005, 01:02:00 AM »
If it is line loss, it should arrive at 120v with no load and fall as you load it.


If you have 90v with no load, either it is going out at 90v at the far end or more likely it is from a modified square wave inverter and your meter is reading it wrong due to the bad waveform.


If it is just waveform from the inverter you may be ok as long as it doesn't drop too much with load.


Check it with no load and if it is still low, see if you can check at the supply end with your meter and it should be the same.


If you get 120 on no load and it drops on load to 90 then what everyone else has said will apply and the simplest way would be a variac if you can get one.


Flux

« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 01:02:00 AM by (unknown) »

Vince

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2005, 01:04:05 AM »


I think I would disconnect the inverter and send the 24v DC up the 1200 foot run, and see what voltage you get at the cabin. You might be able to utilize a 12v DC > 120v AC inverter on that end.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 01:04:05 AM by (unknown) »

Experimental

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2005, 01:11:14 AM »
        Thanks Tom --All these suggestions have merrit, BUT first, you need to know what gage the wire is -- next, you need to know if there are any splices in it --- if there is, and they have corroded (being buried) You have high resistance connections, causing your power to be used up in heat !!

        Throwing transformers, and other equipment on that line, will only make high resistance connections worse !!

        I just go back to the same thing -- before we can advise you intelligently, we all need to know what that wire gage is, and what type...

        You would never believe how many times I have seen this same problem, with buried connections -- even when the wire gage was correct for the run..

       We all, want to help, but you need to give more info --- All electrical circuits have one common element ---SMOKE !!!

      I wish you all a good weekend, Bill H......
« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 01:11:14 AM by (unknown) »

pyrocasto

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2005, 02:22:50 AM »
Impossable man. If he's got a 30volt drop at 120 volts, then 24 volt's not gonna work.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 02:22:50 AM by (unknown) »

GaryGary

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2005, 09:07:13 AM »
Sorry if this a duplicate post -- was not sure if I got it to go the first time.


Hi,


You don't state what the load is when the voltage drops to 90V, or what the wire gauge is.  Both of these would help a lot.


You may be OK with your small load.


Assuming YOUR load (computer + peripherals) is 200 watts, or 1.7 amps at 120VAC (this is what my computer + small printer draws).


Then here are are voltages you would get at the cabin for various wire gauges:


Wire       Length     Current    Resistance   Volatage    Volatage @

Gauge       (ft)       (amps)      (ohms)      Drop(VAC)   Cabin(VAC)

14          2400      1.7        6.05            17.5         102.5

12          2400      1.7        3.02            11            109

10          2400      1.7        2.40             7            113

8           2400      1.7        1.5              4.4          116


So, if the wire gauge is at least number 12, and you keep the load down to 200 watts, you should be OK -- i.e. you would be getting around 109 volts at the cabin.


This assumes 1) you start with 120VAC at the creek, 2)2400 ft of wire (up and back), 3) not to wild a power factor.


As was suggested above, you need to check to make sure that with no load that you are really getting 120VAC at the cabin.  If you arn't, then there is a problem somewhere in the generator, inverter or wire run.


If the wire gauge is not marked on the wire, you can measure the diameter to get it:


14 guage  0.064 inch  (just over 1/16th inch)

12        0.081

10        0.102

8         0.128       (just over 1/8 inch)


Gary

« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 09:07:13 AM by (unknown) »

Vince

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2005, 10:22:38 AM »


Ah, the decline in voltage from 120v AC to 90v AC is a 25% drop, not a "30 volt drop". An equivalent 25% drop in voltage from 24v DC would be 18v DC, possibly more, which opens the potential for a 12v inverter.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 10:22:38 AM by (unknown) »

terry5732

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2005, 10:59:05 AM »
Check both  wires for short to ground individually. If none , try the set up power companies use with Earth ground as one conductor. You can then use the TWO wires for hot with double the conductor. May get you less loss if your grounds are good. There is anectdotal claims of excess energy using ground systems.

Transformers are all over and can be made fairly easy. There are quite a few websites that could give you formulas for what you would need to wrap.

Still it would be good I think to move inverter, batteries and rectifiers to the cabin.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 10:59:05 AM by (unknown) »

Nando

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2005, 11:33:58 AM »
Everybody is giving suggestions and solutions to a problem that has not been properly informed.


Start by telling a clear picture of your equipment IN DETAIL the hydro ( water volume and head) then the generator and the RPM under no load and under full load, if known -- Voltage generated at the generator and how is controlled or regulated.

Then the DC/AC converter and its specifications and capabilities.

The wiring gauge and length. 1200 feet ( 366 meters) by definition NEEDS a special transmission arrangement -- either a wire size and/or higher voltage with regulation.


The Load and the any equipment used for measurements.


This way one can give you a logical suggestion to a proper solution of your problem -- All were ready to give "Phantom" solutions to an "unknown ill defined problem"


What other loads does the hydro or the DC/AC converter may have -- also how much power are you needing and how the other loads behave.


DETAILS, DETAILS for proper solutions


Regards


Nando

« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 11:33:58 AM by (unknown) »

DanG

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2005, 12:26:55 PM »
The assumption so far is it's always been this way. Someone must of gotten utility out of that setup, I'd network w/ locals to learn who helped or watched it be installed & where cable came from, and what the folks used the power for, etc.


I've seen 100 foot 120VAC 12awg circuts buried in ground-contact cable work fine all winter but as the snow melts and ground thaws the voltage drops to near what you are experiencing from insulation damage. Makes for lovely twinkling orange-brown lighting, eh?


I would check resistance between the conductors w/ both ends open, use a meggar or DC hi-pot style insulation tester - example meggar @1Kv untill stable or hi-pot @ 2x rated cable voltage to ground, nuetral, phases, etc. - and if you've confirmed a low resistance (should read in mega-ohms) you've got rock cut(s), splice damage or lightning damage that needs to be rang out further.


There are high-tech testers that will time a pulses travel time and give you a distance down the cable where the damage is but the service call to get an electrician and his tools on site might be spendy. Also they can clip on a radio frequency to the line and use a locator to map where the trench meanders from point "A" to "B". If you can find out that originally 250' or 600' or 1000' cable spools where purchased that could help w/ digging out the splices if a more 'low tech' method is used.


If the line is damaged, probably the most cost-effective method would be abandon the existing one and specify a better installation scheme to replace it. 1200 feet is 120 pieces of PVC conduit, even at $2-4 a piece sure is cheaper then trenching machine rental and new cable..

« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 12:26:55 PM by (unknown) »

pyrocasto

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2005, 04:23:43 PM »
It doesnt work that way though. Here's a nice example:


  1. feet run, using 4 gauge copper wire. 240 watts over the line.
  2. VAC @ 2amp: 117.1 volts out.      2.4% Drop.
  3. VDC @ 10amps: 9.6 volts out.       60% Drop.


So they will not have the same percentage drop since the drop is dependent on the amperage. Amperage lowers with higher voltage.


Have a nice day, ;-)

Chris

« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 04:23:43 PM by (unknown) »

Vince

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2005, 04:34:50 PM »


That was MY point in my original post, that the drop would likely be higher with the DC voltage, likely closer to 12v. Hence the potential of the 12v inverter.


Hey, it can't hurt to measure the DC voltage. If it's even close, it would be an inexpensive solution.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 04:34:50 PM by (unknown) »

veewee77

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2005, 10:48:48 PM »
Seems to me that the best way would be to use a transformer at the alternator to boost to high voltage 240+ (higher the better, provided your lines are rated for it) for the long haul, and then move the batteries, inverters and all to the cabin, and install another transformer to drop back down to charge the 24V battery.  The line losses will be much less that way, and since you don't have to worry about the small losses (you said it produced too much power anyway) then that will be good.


And, charging the batteries would be easy, too, since you can use a charge controller and if the input was 40 volts unloaded and even 26 loaded, the charge controller would take care of the batteries.  Then you would have the 120VAC required for the things you want to run.


JMO - YMMV


Doug

« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 10:48:48 PM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2005, 01:47:38 AM »
You may have about the best idea TomW.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2005, 01:47:38 AM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2005, 03:17:24 AM »
As stated not enough info.

Transformers etc.. work.


Heres a cheap quick fix that should work if you have no problems other than line losses, no bad splices etc..


The gennie running from a water power source should provide a constant power 24hrs I assume. Provided of course it not just when a dam is open upstream and subject to change at times. So if this is a constant,


Put 2 batteries at the power source and charge those, this is to provide amps to the inverter when more is needed for a short time than the gennie produces itself. Use as many as needed. Leave any dump loads or regulators there to prevent those from over charging. Now connect a cheap inverter to make 120Vac to power the line to the cabin.


Move the bigger better inverter and all other batteries to the cabin. At the cabin plug in a Smart Charger to charge those batteries from your AC line. Run the best inverter on these batteries to power the cabin.


Now, since the batteries at the cabin are Smart Charged you do not need a dumpload or anything for those. The batteries at the cabin will supply the power for heavy inverter loads when needed and also any DC loads you may want to add like lighting. The cabin inverter will be suppling 120Vac to AC loads. No more worry about 90Vac to computers etc..

Using a smart charger you will be charging 24hrs a day.


Now say you kick on a 1200watt microwave for 60 minutes at the cabin. That's drawing about 100amps 12VDC (plus) from your battery bank at the cabin. Everything works fine, plenty of power. The line to the cabin though is not trying to deliver that power, it is only running a charger. So if charging at 25 amps 12Vdc the line from the gennie  is delivering maybe 2.5 amp 120V AC, it would take 4 hours (plus) to replace the 100amps used, but you got 24hrs to catch up anyway. Course if your only getting 90Vac then you would be drawing more amps at that rate.


Anyway for a quick fix cheap you get the idea. If your daily use at the cabin is say 5kw hrs you need 416.666amps of 12V battery power to meet that need. BUT you have 24hrs to fully charge the batteries and that's an average of 17.36 amps per hour.

You will have loses with the batteies and inverter etc.. I did not count, so let's say 20amps. To do this this way, you shouldn't need much for batteries at the gennie itself. Just enough to power that inverter durring the highest loads the smart charger draws, and the genie cacthes them back up durring lower loads. Maybe the gennie has more than enough power to cover the heavest loads and the battery is just a buffer?? I don't know how to figure that, too many variables unknown.


Now I just bought a Shumacher 2/12/25 amp Smart charger at Wal-mart for a little over $60. My Vector 2/10/20/40amp Smart charger cost me around $80-$100 over a year ago. Both work from a cheap inverter just fine. The Victor I ran at 20 amps from a 400watt inverter fine a whole lot, could not run 40amps though off the small inverter.

 I have a old cheap 300watt inverter, The Shumacher runs fine off that at 2amps, but the inverter cuts out if I try 12amps. They both run at their max power fine if I run off my Aims 5KW inverter :)

 Both have a battery desulphate mode which is good to have also.

Maybe a cheap 12V 1000watt inverter for under $100. Both would be usable for other things and nice to have around when you fix this right. So alittle work moving things around, Smart charger and inverter purchase maybe you could get by with $150-$200.


Since you have a 24V inverter now, it makes things a little more complecated as far as moving it to the cabing and charging there. Can still be done, or buy a 12V large one for the cabing and leave the 24V at the gennie.


Another thing uncertain is what does this part actually mean??


" I have the opportunity to buy into a beautiful off-grid cabin (a life long dream) on a communal trust property "


Does that mean other people are involved and you don't own it all by yourself, which might also mean you can't do just anything you want to it? If so, or something like that, you could leave everything as is, set up batteries and inverter in a pickup truck, charge and use those as I mentioned above from the existing line.

I do something sort of like that with a remote rock house I rent at times like now.

I charge at home or off the truck while driving, then use them out of the truck at that house now for now. Last time I had a battery bank there at the house and charged those with a smart charger and the 400watt inverter from the ones in the truck. This is why I know the chargers work off inverters :)

 Sometimes when other people are involved we have to think of other ways. Since I don't own the house I am limited, no puting up towers etc..

 Though I am working on a tower system for my truck itself, can be lowered to be drivin, but will mostly just be parked there all the time.

 My kid wants the grid turned on there, but I am trying to get off grid at home, why turn on another??

« Last Edit: August 13, 2005, 03:17:24 AM by (unknown) »

tecker

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Re: 120v line loss to 90v at cabin
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2005, 06:51:41 AM »


  I'd have to say a battery bank would be in order here .Keep it topped of with a trickle charge until you can get an RE device to run things up there

« Last Edit: August 13, 2005, 06:51:41 AM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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No Problem
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2005, 08:48:35 AM »
I don't think there is any problem at all.


I would bet the inverter (24VDC to 120VAC) is modified sine wave, and the meter is reading it as pure sine wave.


Take the meter down the hill and test the inverter directly.

I bet it will read the same 90V.


There is probably no problem with line loss, just how the meter reads the MSW voltage.


G-

« Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 08:48:35 AM by (unknown) »
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