Author Topic: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply  (Read 3908 times)

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Argie

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A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« on: March 21, 2006, 08:37:40 AM »
Somebody alerted me to the existence of this article when I mentioned the idea of using an old PC power supply together with my solar controller to make a battery charger, although I think I need a bit more than 13.5 volts.


15 to 17 volts should do nicely, I think.


And why is it that everytime I have some brilliant idea somebody else already thought of it before?  :(


http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_30705/article.html

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 08:37:40 AM by (unknown) »

oztules

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2006, 03:20:20 AM »
They make excellent battery chargers. I have found that without rewinding the tranny, generally you can get up to 29v out of them.  Usually I don't run then continuously over about 17v at higher currents.


I have converted about 30 or so of them for different purposes, and you are even able to make then both current and voltage controllable from 0-29v. I also modified the current op-amp so a short circuit would still produce a constant 15A  and continue to drive the load ie mimick a low impedance power supply This allows you to drive high current startup loads (loaded motors) without the current trip stopping the power supply.


This forced shut down is the biggest single reason why most peoply don't use these supplies for all sorts of uses.


So when set up like this, anything you could use a battery to do, you can do with these. (up to 15-18A)


You can use them in series to get perfectly stable power supplies  of various voltages for testing pwm circuits that will not blow the switching trannies (fets) if there is a fault. (set current out to less than the fets under test.)


so go for it, and they are virtually free nowdays.


The atx ones are useable also, but will require a little bit more cunning than the at style.


Here is another article (unfortunately I found these aftyer I had done my first one, this would have been a great asset then )


 http://www.qsl.net/aa3sj/Pages/PC-Supply.html


And why is it that everytime I have some brilliant idea somebody else already thought of it before?  :(..............you too??


.............oztules

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 03:20:20 AM by (unknown) »
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dinges

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2006, 03:48:04 AM »
I've converted a few too, to 13.85V.


Overvoltage trip is one thing that needs to be taken into account and corrected for.


I wouldn't go much further than 14V, since the Elco's in them are usually only rated for 16V (12V-output). That doesn't give much headroom, unless you replace them with 25V-rated ones (with a low ESR). 29V and/or adjustable output voltage? Wow. Haven't got an idea how to do that.


IMO, converting them is not trivial, but doable, if you have electronics knowledge. To correct one of the resistor networks to my new configuration, it was handy to know Kirchhoff's rules.


They're pretty dangerous and critical stuff to mess with, but if you accidentally blow one while converting, there are plenty other candidates for conversion around.


Also, 12V/55W car headlights are a great load to test these PSUs; they can easily deliver 10A, enough to drive 2 headlights. Put on some shades though...


Peter.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 03:48:04 AM by (unknown) »
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oztules

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2006, 04:07:07 AM »
Peter

"Overvoltage trip is one thing that needs to be taken into account and corrected for" This function is usually done with a small to92 scr. This trips into conduction and shorts out the deadtime pin from memory. Study the circuit  (map it out) and up-rate the trip voltage for it.


Yes caps need replacing to higher voltage.


The voltage can be trimpot arrangement with the divider that controls the op amp that is used for the volt sense.


Various ways seem to have been devised to control the current. Some use a toroid on the centertap of the switching tranny primary with a few turns, which gets processed into one of the two op amps in the 494. Interfere with this and use trimpot for this divider as well, and you are on the way to a lab powr supply. Total control of voltage and current. Easily to tenth /volt stable.


Most supplies I have worked on, tie one of the op-amps fully on, and don't use it. This one I (usually have to cut the tracks to seperate ) release to use as a current sense. 2 inch piece of wire is usually enough to create a shunt (series with dc output)trimpot /voltage divider to same op amp and presto - full current control


As you rightly point out, if you fail, its dime a dozen territory.


"WEAR GLASSES" is the most important thing here. Tranny destruction can be terribly violent in the extreme if you botch up the feedback loops. In my early attempts a few tranny bits hit the roof and walls....isolated 240v is nice also


........oztules

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 04:07:07 AM by (unknown) »
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dinges

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2006, 05:01:42 AM »
I forgot:


When you want to use them as a battery charger, you'd better put a diode in the +12 (or now: +13.8V) line.


One of my converted PSUs only works properly when I first plug it in, turn it on and only THEN connect the battery to be charged; otherwise, the partly discharged battery feeds back into the PSU and messes up the control signals, causing the PSU to not start up properly.


This problem could be easily solved by adding a (big) diode (>10A), but you'd need to increase output voltage by about another volt (not .7V; most diodes, when fully conducting, drop about 1V, not the often-assumed .6-.7V!)In that case though, the diode will dissipate about 10W at 10A load.


Peter.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 05:01:42 AM by (unknown) »
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Opera House

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2006, 08:25:58 AM »
In many of the older supplies, the output is regulated by a LM431 adjustable zener.  This is in series with the LED sction of the opto isolator providing feedback to the dangerous voltage side.  By changing the resistors on this, you can set it to a higher voltage.  The high current 5V is center tapped rectification.  By using a 4 diode bridge and not the center tap the voltage can be easily doubled. Just use high speed diodes.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 08:25:58 AM by (unknown) »

willib

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2006, 11:19:59 AM »
Peter have you got a schematic of a powersupply that you modified?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 11:19:59 AM by (unknown) »
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dinges

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2006, 11:24:17 AM »
Oh Willib... If only...


That would have made life so much easier. There are some schematics around on the web, but I think you'd be lucky if your PSU would be included. But generally, they look all pretty much the same, only differing in details.


In both cases I had to resort to my reverse engineering skills. And in both cases this worked (which pretty much surprized me).


But if anyone else has any good schematics of these things, I'd be interested in hearing/seeing them too!


Peter.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 11:24:17 AM by (unknown) »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

Argie

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2006, 08:53:26 PM »
I'm prepared to sit here very patiently looking at this page until somebody tells me what I want to hear; that there is absolutely no need to even open the PC power supply and all I need to do is connect the 5 volt 20 amp output in series with the 12 volt 9 amp output to get 17 volts 9 amps.  :)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 08:53:26 PM by (unknown) »

Argie

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2006, 09:01:56 PM »
>>>One of my converted PSUs only works properly when I first plug it in, turn it on and only THEN connect the battery to be charged; otherwise, the partly discharged battery feeds back into the PSU and messes up the control signals, causing the PSU to not start up properly.<<<


Peter:


That was a very important piece of advice.


>>>This problem could be easily solved by adding a (big) diode (>10A), but you'd need to increase output voltage by about another volt (not .7V; most diodes, when fully conducting, drop about 1V, not the often-assumed .6-.7V!)In that case though, the diode will dissipate about 10W at 10A load.<<<


Why not a properly heat-sinked 20-40 amp Schottky diode to cut that voltage waste and power dissipation in half?


RScomponents now has some dirt cheap ones.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 09:01:56 PM by (unknown) »

commanda

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2006, 12:04:17 AM »
First, you'll have to seperate the negatives. They're commoned inside the supply. This will usually mean carving the pcb. Unless the minus 12 volt rail can supply 9 amps, then using the output between plus 5 & minus 12 will give 17 volts.


Second, that 17 volts is voltage regulated; effectively zero output impedance. Hook it to your 12 volt battery; I (current) = E/R  = (17 - 12) / 0  = infinite current.

If you insert a series resistor; R = E/I  = (17 - 12) / 9 (amps) = 0.5 ohms and P (power) = I * I * R = 40 watts; then you'd have a crude battery charger. (NOTE; I haven't actually done this, nor am I likely to.)


Amanda

« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 12:04:17 AM by (unknown) »

Argie

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2006, 01:56:31 AM »
>>>>First, you'll have to separate the negatives. They're commoned inside the supply. This will usually mean carving the pcb.<<<


And, more importantly, the two negatives are supposed to be connected to chassis, right?


There is always something that kills the best, laziest ideas.  :)

« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 01:56:31 AM by (unknown) »

Argie

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2006, 02:02:29 AM »
>>>Second, that 17 volts is voltage regulated; effectively zero output impedance. Hook it to your 12 volt battery; I (current) = E/R  = (17 - 12) / 0  = infinite current.

If you insert a series resistor; R = E/I  = (17 - 12) / 9 (amps) = 0.5 ohms and P (power) = I * I * R = 40 watts; then you'd have a crude battery charger.<<<


That's a bit too crude and I think I'll stick to the original plan of connecting that 17 volt output in parallel with the solar panels so that the solar controller takes care of everything.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 02:02:29 AM by (unknown) »

oztules

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2006, 04:12:44 AM »
 Hi Amanda,


An insight from someone foolish enough to dabble with these things.....

"First, you'll have to seperate the negatives. They're commoned inside the supply. This will usually mean carving the pcb. Unless the minus 12 volt rail can supply 9 amps, then using the output between plus 5 & minus 12 will give 17 volts."


Unfortunately I have found that it is not even that simple. They wind the trannies with the secondary as tapped windings,


ie :If you were to unwind one:


You will find that the outer layer is the second half of the primary, then comes half of the 12v-5v layer, then the 5v -0v layer then 0-5v and then 5-12v (12-5-0-5-12  taps) and finally the first half of the primary. the secondary is sandwiched between the split primary to tighten the magnetic coupling between the windings, and so achieve maximum power transfer with minimum losses.


As you can guess, the heavier current 5v-0-5v  windings are usually 4 in hand, then from the 12v-5v, 5-12v tap only two in hand, but essentially a single tapped secondary.


This will cramp your style if you are trying to isolate the negs.


Trouble no 2 comes with the rectification for the -12v and the -5v lines They are usually fr155 or equiv (fast 1.5a diodes) and this will severly limit plans for high current usage of these rails.


So I guess that will make it even less likely that you will try that configuration.


..........oztules

« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 04:12:44 AM by (unknown) »
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oztules

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2006, 04:30:44 AM »
Hi Argie


You will do better to get two supplies and series wire the +12v  and the + 5 volt from them both through a current limiting resistor and then into your batts or regulator.


You have correctly noticed that the negatives of the supplies are earthed, so the two chassis must not touch, or they will trigger the dead time cutout on one or both.


This can be avoided by not letting them touch or isolating the dc outputs from the chassis. (some rubber "o" rings under the board screws on the secondary side will do this)  The atx supplies bring a whole lot of other considerations, so stick with the at supplies.


There is an explanation on http://www.austech.info/showthread.php?t=27194 under the heading of High current 20 volt regulator. This will explain how to convert it to variable voltage/variable current power supply.


If you can do this, you can set the output to 13.8v at effectively 0 impedance as Amanda mentioned but current limited (0-20A)  Then makes an excellent battery charger.


..........oztules

« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 04:30:44 AM by (unknown) »
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Argie

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2006, 04:56:23 PM »
>>>You will do better to get two supplies and series wire the +12v  and the + 5 volt from them both <<<


Oztules:


This is not funny.


Only last night I was talking with a friend about this same idea and told him about the possibility of being able to use two power supplies with their outputs in series, and then the idea progressed from there into using three PC power supplies so those extra 10 amps in the 5 volt output don't go to waste.


One extra power supply would give twice the current at the same voltage by connecting two of them with their 12 volt 10 amp outputs connected in parallel and with the third power supply 5 volt 20 amp output in series to get a total output of 17 volt 20 amp.


I have a box full of PC power supplies somewhere in one of the sheds and they are so small and light compared to anything with a transformer that I think this is very doable.


>>>You have correctly noticed that the negatives of the supplies are earthed, so the two chassis must not touch, or they will trigger the dead time cutout on one or both.


This can be avoided by not letting them touch or isolating the dc outputs from the chassis.<<<


That's the easy part, but wouldn't their inputs (115-230 volts)interface in some way with their now floating outputs earths which are connected to the chassis?


>>>The atx supplies bring a whole lot of other considerations, so stick with the at supplies.<<<


Why wouldn't *any* PC power supply work when connected in this way?

« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 04:56:23 PM by (unknown) »

commanda

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2006, 05:10:47 PM »
Knew I forgot something. Haven't played with these things for several years (that's my excuse & I'm sticking to it). You are correct, of course.


Amanda

« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 05:10:47 PM by (unknown) »

oztules

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2006, 07:22:16 PM »
Three questions, so three answers.

 1. "One extra power supply would give twice the current at the same voltage by connecting two of them with their 12 volt 10 amp outputs connected in parallel and with the third power supply 5 volt 20 amp output in series to get a total output of 17 volt 20 amp"

Answer ...yes no problems with this, just isolate the earthing inside on the secondary of the board only. You should see the "lands"(copper/tinned areas) that interface with the chassis on the output side. Leave the input side earthed, this is part of the noise reduction filter...not necessary, but nice.


 2."That's the easy part, but wouldn't their inputs (115-230 volts)interface in some way with their now floating outputs earths which are connected to the chassis?"


Answer These supplies are what's known as offline supplies. There is no connection in any way of the secondaries - to the Mains input side. When you lift the secondary away from the earth, the floating outputs are completely isolated from the mains in all useful ways. (sometimes they have a very small capacitance cross connecting, but only a few picofarads)


The primary sides (110v in your case) are going to be connected in parallel, and so it does not matter that the primaries are earthed. ( forget for the moment that the neutral is earthed at the switchboard ).


You have correctly pointed out a weakness in my previous reply. When I first did this, I opened them up and parallel wired them for single powerpoint operation. I didn't connect the earths up, as they were to be together in a single chassis, and the chassis would be earthed. In my case I remember only that I put cardboard under them, and it all  worked. This memory wrongly led me to say that seperating them would solve the problem....it did for me, but I hadn't considered all cases..... so if you disconned the secondaries from chassis ("O" rings under the board or similar, you will have no troubles.


 3." >>>The atx supplies bring a whole lot of other considerations, so stick with the at supplies.<<<


Why wouldn't any PC power supply work when connected in this way?'


Answer. Yes. Same rules apply with the un-earthing of secondaries. You would have to ground the grey wire I think, in order to wake up the supply and light up the main PWM.(I'm going with Amanda's excuse here.. It's been a few years since I played with them... i think it's the grey one)


The atx is a generation ahead of the simplicity of the at supply. They are more likely to stop you from loading up one voltage rail, without loading up other voltage rails, and may see this as an error. They are more complex with the extra PWM converter providing the sleep power functions, and as I said, have a much higher intergration of safety circutry which may catch you by surprise.


That said, they may well work the same, but don't be surprised if they stop you using certain combinations. They tend to balance the four or five voltages through various voltage dividers, get the sum, and provide that to the error op amps in the tl494, they also send samples to scr shutdown triggers. Depends how they balance these dividers, as to how drawing current from only one of them will affect the error traps. The rotten things are all different, so some will be great, some may be finnicky, all will work to some extent.


Have a look at that link i left, with four resistors, and one capacitor, you may get one supply to do your 17v at 15A or more...cooling dependant. It is interesting, that the diode in this instance are the 12 volt rails diode. Usually rated at 8A, but under pwm, easily handle 20A I guess its the duty cycle, but I don't really know.


Have fun with this..........oztules

« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 07:22:16 PM by (unknown) »
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Opera House

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2006, 07:47:53 PM »
The mains may be isolated, but the mains grounds are not.  Therefore, plugging two power supplies into a three wire outlet grounds both power supply cases together.  And I think the case is connected to the power supply common negative.  


These power supplies are a good source for a TL494 switching regulator chip and the transformers 5V secondary is a great inductor for a buck or boost regulator.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 07:47:53 PM by (unknown) »

oztules

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2006, 08:38:46 PM »
 "And I think the case is connected to the power supply common negative. "


Yes they are. The screws that hold the board to the case ground via a solder land under the board. Dont replace the screws and put a piece of plastic or similar ........


or use an "o" ring" 1/8th inch inner to lift it above chassis. and replace the screws. The secondaries are now floating.


 This is the only secondary ground i have ever found.


.........oztules

« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 08:38:46 PM by (unknown) »
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commanda

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Re: A Dirt-Cheap, High Current Power Supply
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2006, 03:08:09 PM »
Found this last night.


http://www.qrp4u.de/docs/en/smps_new/index.htm


Salvage parts from existing power supply & build a new one. Fet switches & synchronous rectification. May interest some.


Amanda

« Last Edit: March 23, 2006, 03:08:09 PM by (unknown) »