Author Topic: Getting my hydro project going  (Read 30990 times)

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Jedon

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Getting my hydro project going
« on: July 07, 2010, 02:13:21 PM »
Project: 100 ft of head, 600ft penstock, 800ft of wire to the inverters. Batteries are 48V. Hoping for 200W in summer ( 20gpm ), 1000W at full flow ( 100+gpm)

I made some more progress, I cut a path down to the spring and damned it up a bit and put in a 3" pipe. I'm getting 24GPM out of the pipe which still leaves enough water for the creek. Now I need a bunch more pipe and a pelton wheel / generator or alternator.
This looks interesting:
http://cgi.ebay.com/TRUE-PELTON-HYDRO-GENERATOR-1200w-PMA-KIT-ALL-NEW-/180528898067?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a085c6013#ht_500wt_928
or
http://cgi.ebay.com/PELTON-TRUBINE-GENERATOR-2400w-PMAs-ALL-NEW-/310231277155?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483b399e63#ht_500wt_928

Any comments about those setups? About half the price of a Harris setup.
I'm torn between dropping in a pre-made unit and scrounging one together.

661-0

I fixed your photo for you please read the "photo posting(revised addition)" sticky down in site news.
Kurt
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 08:30:22 PM by kurt »

nick1234

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2010, 08:19:11 PM »
wish you luck
but i would change that pipe   it  is good for 15 lbs pressure 1st kick in the system  and the pipe ruptures
the most if you have to use it  25 ft drop short run
and for short runs you have the pipe backwards it will block at joints
sorry to rain on your parade   fix it now or pay for it later   


XXLRay

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2010, 08:40:28 AM »
Are you sure a pelton turbine is suitable for you? It is designed for high drops and low water volume. Usually banki/ossberger turbines are applied for home purposes.

Jedon

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2010, 05:22:25 PM »
Nick, You are correct that is just a temporary pipe I had sitting around.
XXLRay, I need to run 600 ft of penstock so I'll have 100ft of head at 24gpm should give me 200W or so with a pelton.
I thought banki's were better for large flow, medium head?

hydrosun

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2010, 07:20:14 PM »
I've run my hydro for the last 16 years with a 4 inch thin wall sewer pipe you seem to be using. As long as it is buried to protect it from sun light degradation it lasts a long time. My system is 115 feet head. In the larger pipe it hasn't caught anything by having the bell ends backwards in some places. I now install for other people the thicker gasketed  sewer pipe.
I looked at the system on ebay.  The pelton buckets are too far apart to capture all the energy. The water won't be perpendicular to the buckets as much as with closer buckets. Using a 6 inch diameter wheel means the rpm is slower than with the 4 inch in harris systems.If the alternator has fixed magnets it can't adjust to your water conditions.  If you build your own you can buy a Harris pelton for less than that system and screw it on a 70 amp Motorcraft alternator from the junk yard  mounted on a bucket. You would be able to use a rheostat between the 1/2 voltage output and the field windings to vary the strength to match the power available in the water. That is the exact system I ran for 10 years before I upgraded to a Harris PM for higher efficiency.  If you need the power or want to be able to run on less water when the stream flow is lower it makes sense to pay the higher cost for the Harris adjustable permanent magnet turbine. I've installed more than a dozen and everyone is amazed at how reliable and efficient they are.  I have two and they are the best investment I've ever made.
Chris

XXLRay

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2010, 09:14:19 AM »
XXLRay, I need to run 600 ft of penstock so I'll have 100ft of head at 24gpm should give me 200W or so with a pelton.
I thought banki's were better for large flow, medium head?
First I have to admit that I do not have any practical experience with hydro turbines. I am more in wind turbines.

As far as I know Pelton turbines are the Ferrari of water turbines: Superb in high end conditions but their efficiency drops dramatically when they have to operate outside their specifications.
Banki turbines are as you mentioned for low drop and low volume where the documentation I know always refers to the scale of hydro electric power plants. In this scale your conditions might count as low drop and low volume. The numbers I know are drops of 1000-2000m (3280-6560ft) for Pelton turbines. I can not judge whether these scale with the size of the turbine.
Francis turbines seem to be the jack of all trades as they cover a wide range of conditions.

jlt

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2010, 11:31:57 AM »
800ft of wire to the inverters i a lot why not put  them close to the creek and run 129ac to house

Jedon

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2010, 06:52:39 PM »
800ft of wire to the inverters i a lot why not put  them close to the creek and run 129ac to house

Well that's where my shed is with all the power equipment; batteries, generators, inverters etc and where it feeds up to the house.  I was considering running unregulated AC from the turbine, then rectifying and putting into t a charge controller, perhaps using a step down transformer first if needed.

XXLRay, pelton wheels are pretty versatile, check this bad boy out in my town:
http://www.noehill.com/nevada_county_california/cal1012.asp

XXLRay

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2010, 04:19:30 AM »
XXLRay, pelton wheels are pretty versatile, check this bad boy out in my town:
http://www.noehill.com/nevada_county_california/cal1012.asp
I won't hinder anyone to use a pelton turbine and just wanted to present alternatives that might be more efficient, easier to install and cheaper in this particular case.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2010, 04:47:44 PM »
XXLRay, I need to run 600 ft of penstock so I'll have 100ft of head at 24gpm should give me 200W or so with a pelton.
I thought banki's were better for large flow, medium head?
First I have to admit that I do not have any practical experience with hydro turbines. I am more in wind turbines.

As far as I know Pelton turbines are the Ferrari of water turbines: Superb in high end conditions but their efficiency drops dramatically when they have to operate outside their specifications.
Banki turbines are as you mentioned for low drop and low volume where the documentation I know always refers to the scale of hydro electric power plants. In this scale your conditions might count as low drop and low volume. The numbers I know are drops of 1000-2000m (3280-6560ft) for Pelton turbines. I can not judge whether these scale with the size of the turbine.
Francis turbines seem to be the jack of all trades as they cover a wide range of conditions.

The wikipedia page on water turbines has an application chart.  (I presume it's for commercial sites where manufacturing cost and engineering of the turbine isn't a big issue and they can go after small efficiency differences.)  The flows are in cubic meters per second so most of our stuff is up against the left edge.

That chart's recommendation for peltons or turgos doesn't start until the head is AT LEAST 50 meters - over half again what you have.  But 100 feet and 20 to 100 GPM is bang in the middle of the crossflow (banki-mitchell) sweet spot (and a tad high for a kaplan, which is the only other one that comes close).

Given that crossflows are also SO much easier to construct than any of the alternatives I'd go with one.

ghurd

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2010, 05:27:58 PM »
Not just easier, but cheaper!

It would not be too expensive or difficult to whip up a prototype?

Seriously jealous,
G-
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Jedon

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2010, 01:09:01 PM »
Thank you all for the ideas and input!
Does anyone make and sell crossflow turbines like they do with all the pelton wheel kits?
I don't have time to make a wheel like http://www.fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,128468.html

ricie

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2010, 05:59:52 PM »
This is some good info I can make solar panel and wind turbine and 3 phase coils but i dont know how to make a hyrdo turbine

Jedon

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2010, 06:55:22 PM »
I got the penstock mostly in, turns out I only needed 400ft of 3" PVC. Now I need to micro level it, secure it, and protect it from falling trees.
Next up is finding a good price on a Harris Hydro setup and working on the intake.

hydrosun

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2010, 12:24:59 AM »
The one photo of the pipe spanning the log and rocks looks like a potential problem to me. I can't tell how far the gap between the rocks and log is. The weight of the water when the pipe is full may cause the pipe to sag and try to pull the joint apart. If there is any way to go around this point or use elbows to hug the ground so the pipe is better supported would be a good idea. It would also be less vulnerable to trees falling. I like to bury pvc pipe as much as possible to protect it from trees and sunlight and cold, all things that can destroy your hard work.
You may want to check out hydroscreens.com for a trouble free intake.
Chris

birdhouse

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2010, 01:52:45 AM »
i agree with chris here (hydrosun).

i have no experience with hydro power, but do know that pvc pipe degrades rapidly from UV.  i'll bet even a rattle can finish would help a ton, but burying it would do even better (as chris does).

you have an amazing potential re set-up at your finger tips.  jealous for sure! 

adam

Jedon

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2010, 12:32:35 PM »
Thanks, I do plan on rattle canning the pipe, both for UV ( although it is under a forest canopy and doesn't really get sun ) and for aesthetics.
Part of micro leveling the pipe will be making some supports etc to make sure the pipe is not under stress, the water can flow with little friction as possible etc.
I would like to bury the pipe but that looks like about a week of back breaking labor with a pick ax on a cliff so maybe someday but not now.
Thanks for the link for the intake!
I'll post more pics here as I go.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2010, 05:16:28 PM »
Part of micro leveling the pipe will be making some supports etc to make sure the pipe is not under stress, the water can flow with little friction as possible etc.

Huh?

This is water we're talking about.  You don't have to level the pipe unless it's an open trough or multiple elevation serpentines are arranged so they can trap tall air bubbles in the line.

Slow curves or even big dips (like hundreds of feet) won't add noticeably more friction than you'd expect from their increase to the total length of the pipe.  Even moderately tight curves are not a big deal if they're smooth (i.e. like the inside of an elbow fitting).

What kills you is roughness, which gets you out of laminar flow (with its significant but moderate friction) into turbulence (which turns energy into sound and then heat), a fitting that makes the water take a turn by ramming into a surface and losing its momentum, rather than being smoothly redirected by a curve, or an abrupt change in diameter (rather than a conical passage) where the flow is rapid (which can also get you into turbulent flow).

Jedon

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2010, 11:28:33 AM »
Thanks, good to know! I'll focus on keeping bubbles out and getting it supported.
I looked at wire at Home Depot, $0.74/ft for 4g copper stranded wire and I need 600ft positive and negative so 1200ft total, ouch! I need to find a salvage place or something in Sacramento, Marysville, Yuba City, Oroville or Reno.

hydrosun

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2010, 12:15:52 PM »
The wire at Home depot is probably indoor wire meant to be in conduit. If not in conduit you want USE type wire or UF grey direct bury wire.  Have you considered higher voltage to keep the wire size down?  I've put in several hydro systems running at about 100 volts DC and dropping the voltage at the battery using a solar mppt like the MX-60. It also allows the hydro to run at it's best voltage to produce the most power. The trick is to make sure the voltage doesn't get too high to blow up the converter. I use solar panels in parallel to do that. Check this site for info on that. The new mppt from Midnite solar may not need an external voltage clamp and allows higher input voltages.
chris

ghurd

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2010, 03:15:49 PM »
Aluminum wire!
USE.  Triplex (3 strands).
Go a step larger with AL, but even AL #1 is cheaper than that, and does not require conduit.
Seems like the last time I bought it, triplex USE-2 AL #1 was $1.09/ft?
G-
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hydrosun

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2010, 12:15:38 PM »
I don't like using aluminum wire in situations where it may be shallowly buried from a hydro and through the forest. Any nick in the positive wire and it turns to white powder. Then a devil of a  time trying to find the break.
Chris

TomW

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2010, 12:51:19 PM »
I don't like using aluminum wire in situations where it may be shallowly buried from a hydro and through the forest. Any nick in the positive wire and it turns to white powder. Then a devil of a  time trying to find the break.
Chris

Very good point on Aluminum easily turning to aluminum oxide in that kind of use.

Tom

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2010, 11:15:51 PM »
Thanks, good to know! I'll focus on keeping bubbles out and getting it supported.

You could let it lie on the ground.  That's really good support.

Have you thought of renting a trencher for a day to put it a couple feet down?  (Just be careful not to cut a new stream.  B-)  )

Jedon

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2010, 04:06:04 PM »
I'm going to put the wire in PVC pipe, I have about 150ft of 1.5" PVC already and will get the rest so it's protected.
The wire at HD is indeed indoor THHN wire and not meant to be direct buried.
The terrain would not allow a trencher, heck I don't think I could even do some of it with a pick ax, the sides of the creek are STEEP in places.
I did try to keep the penstock pipe on the ground but sometimes it just didn't work out that way so I'll support that, also some places where it is on a steep area I'll support it so it doesn't bend too much.
I have considered upping the voltage, can the Harris Hydro unit do that? It does have an adjustable PM generator. I was thinking of using either a Xantrex C-60 or a Tristar TS-60 for a charge controller.


powercompany

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2010, 06:28:58 PM »
Getting my hydro project going frist i want get out the deep end , i been reading lot here to day , god i think i am over loaded . well in Ireland where are power about go up again , avg cost 4 bedroom house hold bill is 300 euro ( domestie price is 0.39 euros Kwh )
but whole sale price is only 15 cent industry price

we now having to pay for are Carbon Credits this bring up are price again , and times not good , for year my father told that river out there would make money , this was back in the 80s ... "god was he right" .. but all the paper work and so on that he got done has been missed layed so where , there been few big clean out sine then

Could some do 1 . 2 .3 .4 list from start please

and the maths tables ... o no not skool again

thank you

PC

TomW

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2010, 06:37:47 PM »
Getting my hydro project going frist i want get out the deep end , i been reading lot here to day , god i think i am over loaded . well in Ireland where are power about go up again , avg cost 4 bedroom house hold bill is 300 euro ( domestie price is 0.39 euros Kwh )
but whole sale price is only 15 cent industry price

we now having to pay for are Carbon Credits this bring up are price again , and times not good , for year my father told that river out there would make money , this was back in the 80s ... "god was he right" .. but all the paper work and so on that he got done has been missed layed so where , there been few big clean out sine then

Could some do 1 . 2 .3 .4 list from start please

and the maths tables ... o no not skool again

thank you

PC

PC;

You really should start another thread to ask your basic questions rather than sidetrack this thread  with basics, electricity costs and carbon credits..

It will work better for you and for future readers.

Tom

HiddenMountain

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2010, 09:21:50 PM »
I don't like using aluminum wire in situations where it may be shallowly buried from a hydro and through the forest. Any nick in the positive wire and it turns to white powder. Then a devil of a  time trying to find the break.
Chris

My system has 2 - 4 gauge aluminum wires buried in 1 1/2" poly pipe. The run from my powerhouse to the main house, and my battery bank, is 120'. There is no measurable power loss from one end to the other. The price was right, free from a barn that was being torn down......

As for the wire turning to powder, hmmmm, that's disturbing news. Hopefully, it won't be a problem since it's underground. I was thinking ahead enough to run a separate fish line through the pipe for future use, hope I don't need it for new cables!

And the pipe. I think it's best to keep the angle of descent as constant as possible. I used to have my pipe hanging from rope tied to tree branches in places! It's all buried now. That was a backbreaker to trench through a rain forest where cedar roots are 18 inches thick and a little rock turns into a huge boulder! I wore out a shovel and a good bar and chain on that job!

Good luck with your project, I'm looking forward to seeing the lights go on!

Jon
Energy Systems & Design Stream Engine, 30A @ 24V, 750W 
Magnasine MS4024P AE
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Power, by God!

I hope they never find a cure for Eleutheromania

hydrosun

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2010, 11:07:33 PM »
Aluminum wire that is protected is fine. It is when it is directly buried without conduit in damp soil and it gets a cut that electrolysis will dissolve the wire.

Harris hydro voltage is determined by the head and windings in the stator.  I had one system that needed 200 vdc with 50 feet head. None of the standard stators would do so I had a special order to wind a stator by hand.   
Chris
 

Jedon

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2010, 03:41:24 PM »
I ordered a Harris Hydro 4 nozzle 96V setup that should arrive in a week or so.
My plan is to run 10g THHN in 1.5" PVC 650', online calculators show line loss at under 10% at 500W
I have 19.6 psi, I was hoping for more like 40 so I hope the flow is more than I guessed so I get more power, expecting 100-500W now.

hydrosun

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2010, 11:10:09 PM »
the Harris hydro output is limited by the rpm. Don figures about 500 watts per 1000 rpm. 15 psi gives about 1000 rpm, at 19 psi you should will max out above 500 watts if you have over  100 gpm.
Chris

Jedon

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2010, 11:58:25 AM »
I've measured 120 gpm but wouldn't want to take all of it so 100 gpm limit is fine, thanks for the info! I got two Trimetric TS-60's , one for my 780W of PV and the other for the hydro, since my panels are 65V perhaps those should be hooked directly to the batteries and then use one TS-60 for diversion load and the other for the Harris unit?

hydrosun

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Re: Getting my hydro project going
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2010, 12:03:45 AM »
I can't remember  your system battery  voltage. If 48 volts you could hook the hydro and solar directly to the batteries and use one TS-60 with a big enough load to control both.  Or you could use a Outback FM-80 to hook both to the battery and use it to get the most power out of each.
Chris