Author Topic: Dam ICE!  (Read 19889 times)

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ghurd

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2011, 09:23:31 AM »
I can imagine there still being ice in the pipe.

When it is that cold, the water is very cold.

Water can coexist, at the exact freezing point, as either/both liquid and solid.

If the water is very close to the exact freezing point, then it take a very long time for the ice to absorb enough 'heat' from the ice cold water to change state back to liquid.

My advice would be to move the pipe, hydro, batteries, etc... about 500 miles South.   ;)
-19 is WAY too cold for me!
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HiddenMountain

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2011, 06:14:32 PM »
I can imagine there still being ice in the pipe.

When it is that cold, the water is very cold.

Water can coexist, at the exact freezing point, as either/both liquid and solid.

If the water is very close to the exact freezing point, then it take a very long time for the ice to absorb enough 'heat' from the ice cold water to change state back to liquid.

My advice would be to move the pipe, hydro, batteries, etc... about 500 miles South.   ;)
-19 is WAY too cold for me!
G-

 ;D ;D ;D ;D chicken.....

Soooo, upon closer inspection, I believe I have discovered my problem.... a cracked pipe.... somewhere....  :-\

I went up and down the length of the penstock and there is definitely air getting in somewhere and that can only mean one thing, a crack in the pipe. The entire thing is buried under 2 feet of snow right now though, so I'll have to wait until it manifests itself in the form of a wet spot  before I start surgery.

I thought about what XXLRay asked and brought me camera with me this time.  :) So, for your viewing pleasure.....

The site of the ice dam, as you can see, I've already dealt with it. It was right where the alder tree is.

My intake. The coanda screen is doing it's job now.
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HiddenMountain

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2011, 06:19:46 PM »
Energy Systems & Design Stream Engine. It might not be running at full throttle, but it's way better than candles!

The gauge should be reading 35+ psi.


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HiddenMountain

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2011, 06:26:28 PM »
The Snow Cave! Nice and toasty inside.

This summer's little project. 1000' of 3" poly pipe to be cut in two 500' lengths and run parallel, each one feeding one nozzle on the Stream Engine.


My wife just reminded me that we've come a long way from the old system, where I was constantly working on it. Now we complain that we have to go outside, take the sled and chip a little ice... I guess I've gone soft in my old age!
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12AX7

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2011, 08:36:46 PM »
Nice Ice Cave!

Looks pretty remote,  what do you use to heat it?

HiddenMountain

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2011, 09:06:57 PM »
Nice Ice Cave!

Looks pretty remote,  what do you use to heat it?

Thanks  :)

We have two wood stoves, his and hers. Of course I get to feed both of them but she makes me some pretty good food and stuff, so it's a good trade... ;D

http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,144436.0.html
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2011, 10:09:35 PM »
This summer's little project. 1000' of 3" poly pipe to be cut in two 500' lengths and run parallel, each one feeding one nozzle on the Stream Engine.

Just for my curiosity:  Why two runs of 3" rather than one run of something larger?

HiddenMountain

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2011, 10:26:28 PM »
This summer's little project. 1000' of 3" poly pipe to be cut in two 500' lengths and run parallel, each one feeding one nozzle on the Stream Engine.

Just for my curiosity:  Why two runs of 3" rather than one run of something larger?

I admit that it is a bit strange but I call it, "Such a deal, you wouldn't believe!"

My ex-neighbor bought it for his hydro project and offered it to me for a fraction of it's cost when he moved, so I couldn't refuse it. After pricing the stuff out, not to mention the cost of moving it all around, I (read, THE WIFE!) figured it was cheaper in the long run, plus, this way we can still keep the original 3" water line for the house and garden. 9" of capacity for under $1.60 per foot? Such a deal!

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ghurd

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2011, 10:32:19 PM »
"The Snow Cave"
Very neat home!
which obviously needs moved 500 miles south.  
Or 750 miles south.

I already said I don't know about hydro, but...
"I went up and down the length of the penstock and there is definitely air getting in somewhere and that can only mean one thing, a crack in the pipe. The entire thing is buried under 2 feet of snow right now though, so I'll have to wait until it manifests itself in the form of a wet spot  before I start surgery."
Makes no sense to me.
If there is air getting in, will water leak out?  (asuming it is not a giant hole, or very long crack)

Not sure of the overall implications of 3" pipe.
The combined flow rate in two parallel 3" pipes will be little more than half that of a single 4" pipe.
A 6" pipe will carry more than twice as much as a 4" pipe.
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HiddenMountain

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2011, 10:47:46 PM »
"The Snow Cave"
Very neat home!
which obviously needs moved 500 miles south.  
Or 750 miles south.

I already said I don't know about hydro, but...
"I went up and down the length of the penstock and there is definitely air getting in somewhere and that can only mean one thing, a crack in the pipe. The entire thing is buried under 2 feet of snow right now though, so I'll have to wait until it manifests itself in the form of a wet spot  before I start surgery."
Makes no sense to me.
If there is air getting in, will water leak out?  (asuming it is not a giant hole, or very long crack)

Not sure of the overall implications of 3" pipe.
The combined flow rate in two parallel 3" pipes will be little more than half that of a single 4" pipe.
A 6" pipe will carry more than twice as much as a 4" pipe.
G-


Re: leaky pipe... I'm sure it has a long crack somewhere as has been my experience with PVC pipe and ice. The question is where? Reason says that it will be close to the intake where the pressure hasn't built up and where air could get sucked in by the vacuum created. Just a guess???

As for the pipe, please see my last post....^

And, one more thing, 500 or 750 miles south would put me in the US. Now don't get  me wrong, my wife is from down there and I have met some of the nicest people ever who were Americans, but the trend seems to be to bail out of there at the moment.  :o

Now if we were to go, say, 2500 miles south, then we'd be in Costa Rica....hmmm, that I could handle!

The problem is, no matter where you go on this planet, you're still on Earth!  ;)
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rossw

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2011, 11:59:22 PM »
Not sure of the overall implications of 3" pipe.
The combined flow rate in two parallel 3" pipes will be little more than half that of a single 4" pipe.
A 6" pipe will carry more than twice as much as a 4" pipe.

What am I missing here?  A 3" (ID) pipe has a cross-sectional area of just over 7 square inches. Two will be 14.14 sq in.
A 4" (ID) pipe has a cross-sectional area of 12.57 square inches.

(The circumfrence of 3" pipe is 9.42", or 18.8 for two, vs 12.6 for a 4" pipe - so there's a little more dynamic loss - but is it really that much?)

6" pipe has CSA of 28.27", so I'd agree it's more than twice a 4"

ghurd

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2011, 01:01:14 AM »
What am I missing here?  A 3" (ID) pipe has a cross-sectional area of just over 7 square inches. Two will be 14.14 sq in.
A 4" (ID) pipe has a cross-sectional area of 12.57 square inches.

Good catch Ross.  Thanks!
You are not missing anything.  I figured it wrong, twice.

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rossw

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2011, 02:18:18 AM »
Good catch Ross.  Thanks!
You are not missing anything.  I figured it wrong, twice.

Ahhh, ok. I thought it may have been one of those things where the friction losses ate up all the extra CSA, and then some - but it just didn't feel right!

Harold in CR

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2011, 01:46:27 PM »

 Nothing wrong with Costa Rica. You could give me a hand setting up MY Hydro project.  So far, your's looks good. Need more photos when that white stuff blows away.  ;D ;D

HiddenMountain

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2011, 02:18:58 PM »
Not sure of the overall implications of 3" pipe.
The combined flow rate in two parallel 3" pipes will be little more than half that of a single 4" pipe.
A 6" pipe will carry more than twice as much as a 4" pipe.

What am I missing here?  A 3" (ID) pipe has a cross-sectional area of just over 7 square inches. Two will be 14.14 sq in.
A 4" (ID) pipe has a cross-sectional area of 12.57 square inches.

(The circumfrence of 3" pipe is 9.42", or 18.8 for two, vs 12.6 for a 4" pipe - so there's a little more dynamic loss - but is it really that much?)

6" pipe has CSA of 28.27", so I'd agree it's more than twice a 4"

rossw & ghurd, thanks for the math lesson!

Believe me, if we had the money, we'd be using bigger pipe! I think this will be a good compromise.


 Nothing wrong with Costa Rica. You could give me a hand setting up MY Hydro project.  So far, your's looks good. Need more photos when that white stuff blows away.  ;D ;D

Is that an invitation Harold? I'd best not let my wife see this post or we'll be on your doorstep in the morning!

I'd love to come down there and give you a hand but life has me quite tied down up here. My work has me on call all of the time so planning a holiday has become impossible.... :-\
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Harold in CR

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2011, 06:59:28 PM »

 Any time you could get away, just give me a few days notice, and come on down. We are now entering the "Dry" season, so, Rains are sporadic, until Mid-end of April. Rest of the year is Rainy season. Bring yer lightweight raincoat.

 I promise not to work you too hard.  ::) :D :D :D :D :D :D

hydrosun

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2011, 10:08:22 PM »
Just a thought. The coanda screens can sometimes trap air with the water that goes down the pipe. I had one system that did that when the stream flow over the screen got deeper. We put a larger vent pipe 20 feet away from the intake so the air had a chance to separate from the water and float to the top of the pipe and out the vent. With the weird way you had to put the intake screen upside down to get full flow I'd suspect something like that happening to your system. None of the systems I put in have to contend with the cold and ice like your site.
But I've seen gravity flow water systems suck in air and never been able to find out where. One had a syphon out of a well and down the hill to a pump to a pressure tank. Occasionally the pump would start cavitating from air pockets. The syphon was never lost and no air was found at the well head. It had to be coming into some joint not glued well enough but no water was ever found from a leak. It is still causing headaches to the owner.
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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2011, 04:42:17 PM »
Thank you for the pics. It gives me really an impression of the site.

HiddenMountain

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2011, 01:44:28 PM »
......meanwhile, 4000 miles later........

Ok, I lied.

Ok, not really lied but when I checked the nozzles on the turbine, the one in the back is kind of hard to get to and so I just undid the nuts and pulled it a little ways out. I guess I should have been more thorough though because after checking the whole set up and drawing a blank, I went back to the turbine and pulled the nozzles again. This time I pulled the back one right out and, lo and behold, a nice big chunk was broken off! It was on the bottom so I just didn't see it with my quickie inspection.

Thankfully, ES&D includes 2 extra nozzles so I replaced it and now it's working like it should. Full pressure and putting out a steady 30+ amps.

So thanks for the replies and input.  :) Hopefully that's the last of the deep freezes for the winter and next year we'll have the new pipe in and be making even more power!
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gsw999

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2011, 01:50:35 PM »
The snow cave is awesome , dont get much snow here in the UK but plenty of wind.

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2011, 02:49:10 PM »
The snow cave is awesome , dont get much snow here in the UK but plenty of wind.

Thanks gsw999  :)

From what news I've seen lately, it looks like you blokes have had plenty of snow this year.

If we could figure out how to convert snow into electricity, we'd be rich!
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DamonHD

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2011, 02:55:40 PM »
We had here in London a few inches for a few days at most (though coworkers just off to the south-west in Kent were completely unable to get in for days).

Your place does look amazing.  If I were to move to the Styx, that would be what my place would look like.  Maybe more solar PV, but your hydro of course makes me jealous!

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HiddenMountain

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2011, 03:14:02 PM »
Thanks Damon,

We actually do have some solar, but it's under the snow! And we live on the North side of a mountain where the sun is hidden from us for 2 1/2 months! A fact my wife, who is from the sunnier states, reminds me of regularly.... ::) :P :D

And jealousy is a sin, so you're in big trouble now.... ;D
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MattM

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2011, 04:21:36 PM »
Not really snow powered, but I vaguely remember reading about COLD power.  Some guys in Alaska learned how to fill up their welding tanks with half water and compressed air.  When they set them outside the water expands as it freezes and they get a net increase in pressure.  Well, not real cost effective but I bet you could do something similar with hydraulics where you don't have to waste energy initially compressing air.   

HiddenMountain

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2011, 12:50:48 PM »
MattM,

I just talked to Algore, he said to forget the idea, there's no future in it ;D ;D ;D
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XeonPony

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2011, 07:50:49 PM »
Home made dynamite is really handy for cases like that! if not so venturous TATP or a Permaganate vaseline mix does a good job of ice busting!

I pray you're not seriously suggesting TATP.
that stuff has killed more teenagers than any other home made explosive

Thats why you don't use things that you don't understand! No such thing as a dangerous thing, only dangerous people! Like any thing ells in life when used correctly it is a valuable tool. made my life a ton easier when dealing with larg rocks!
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joestue

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2011, 12:54:38 AM »
Home made dynamite is really handy for cases like that! if not so venturous TATP or a Permaganate vaseline mix does a good job of ice busting!

I pray you're not seriously suggesting TATP.
that stuff has killed more teenagers than any other home made explosive

Thats why you don't use things that you don't understand! No such thing as a dangerous thing, only dangerous people! Like any thing ells in life when used correctly it is a valuable tool. made my life a ton easier when dealing with larg rocks!

it appears someone just lost all credibility.
please read this thread: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=8038
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2011, 03:23:40 PM »
it appears someone just lost all credibility.
please read this thread: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=8038

Thanks, joestue.  Any of us that weren't already on a watch list now are after following that link.  B-)

But I do wish you had labeled it "not safe for work - even at lunch hour".  B-b

ghurd

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2011, 03:47:01 PM »
But I do wish you had labeled it "not safe for work - even at lunch hour".  B-b

The only good thing about Vista is its refusal to open that link.
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Basil

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2011, 06:10:27 PM »
Windows 7 gave all kinds of H/LL NO you can't open this.
What is on that stie??????

HiddenMountain

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2011, 06:15:00 PM »
it appears someone just lost all credibility.
please read this thread: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=8038

Thanks, joestue.  Any of us that weren't already on a watch list now are after following that link.  B-)

But I do wish you had labeled it "not safe for work - even at lunch hour".  B-b

But I do wish you had labeled it "not safe for work - even at lunch hour".  B-b

The only good thing about Vista is its refusal to open that link.

Windows 7 gave all kinds of H/LL NO you can't open this.
What is on that stie??????

Alright then, I got the Firefox cop telling me that the link is scary dangerous.... so now we need to know, WHAT'S IN THE LINK ??? ??? ???
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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2011, 06:17:39 PM »
Agreed, my avast anti virus says DANGEROUS SITE!

I wanted to see it too, but not at the expense of compromising my system.  ::)


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TomW

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Re: Dam ICE!
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2011, 06:50:55 PM »
I read it.

Just a forum thread on explosives that was over my head.

I run Linux and Firefox so just peeked in and no troubles yet.

Was not worth the click to me because it didn't make sense .

All I saw was BLAH BLAH unstable friction ignition...  May as well have been in Chinese.

Just from here.

Tom