WVO drip in a Coal Stove?

[ghurd]

Burning straight WVO sounds a bit complicated.
Making Bio-D is far too much for me.

Fishing in the bush last summer, poured out half a bean can (~6oz) of used cooking oil on a nearly dead wet paper and wet cardboard fire.
I was impressed.
The wet paper and cardboard burned a very long time, the small unburned wood coals started, and it turned into quite a camp fire considering there really was not much there to burn.  It appeared even stray drips of oil that fell in wood ash dust near the fire would eventually burn, like the ash was being a wick.

My friend has a top feed hopper coal stove.
Wondering if a very slow WVO drip onto burning coal is a decent idea.  Naturally outside of the hopper, but very near it.

Anybody have any thoughts at all?

G-

PS- FYI- I do not grasp the different burner concepts.  MEN and Old F's burners are very different.
Old F's,
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,130639.0.html
MEN,
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/z/woh2.jpg

[TomW]

G-;

Did this with a wood burner and motor oil in my misspent youth. Had a can of oil hung on a nail above & behind the stove. Hunk of copper tube dripped oil onto the fire from a needle valve screwed into the can. I filtered the oil thru an old T-shirt before putting it in the can. Seemed to work best when dripped slowly onto a bed of coals. Sure extended the burn time on a charge of wood.  No reason it wouldn't work with veggie oil?


Be sure the oil stays warm but not hot as hot puts off smoke / fumes.

Took some fooling around to dial it in on the flow but worked very well with a steady drip onto the coals. You can distinctly smell the burning oil if you are not careful opening the door to add wood. The smell of french fries would probably be less obnoxious.

Use a brass needle valve and don't pull oil off the very bottom of the can as that is where water and chunks  settle.

I just tapped the can about an inch up the side after my first one plugged all the time when I tapped into the bottom cover of the can.

Good luck with it and it ain't rocket science just slowly drip oil onto a bed of coals and it will burn I guarantee it.

Don't let the oil get too hot but it needs to be warm to flow from the can.

My stove had a hole in the top the right size from some doodad to make it pretty which I took off immediately as being too pretty in a man house.

Tom

[jenkinswt]

ghurd I actually have experimented with this very thing this year. I have a wood furnace, probably pretty similar to a coal one. At first I wanted to burn just oil. I think it was a motherearth design but can't remember. I could look it up. It basically had a 4" intake from the top of the stove and funneled out over top of round plates with holes in it, then a drip pan that you filled with something, I still have the bag, I can look at it and tell you. Well this worked awesome at first  but the plates started to plug up and couldn't get enough air flow to the fire. I would clean it and it would work good again but talk about messy. Even when it was working good it wasn't what I would call a clean burn. I happened to already have a 10 gallon hydraulic tank and I just put a 1/4" shutoff valve on, ran a copper line from that and around the stove pipe to help preheat the oil and it dripped in from the top. Nothing real fancy.

I was going to change it to a simpler design that just has a 6" round pipe 6" tall with a flat bottom and a bunch of bolts in the bottom. I put a 2" pipe floor flange on the top of the stove to cover up the bigger 4" hole and was going to hook up a draft blower to it to get a hotter cleaner burn. Well winter was among me and I had another project going on so I didn't have the money. I just capped it off and started burning wood again. Now I am not using the ash pan because I put a plate in the bottom of the stove for when the air intake was coming from the top, so I have to empty the ashes with a shovel, not real handy. Whats been weird is by doing this I have found a way to burn the wood hotter, and direct more of the heat into the house instead of out the pipe. I screw the cap on the top of the stove open the front door and load it up. When its getting a decent flame I shut the front door and open the cap. It sucks air from there instead and seems to blow right down on the top of the coals and puts all the heat towards the front door instead of the chimney pipe.

The other day I wanted to try the oil again and I had some coals in the stove. I hooked the line back up to it and started a drip to it and used it that way for about an hour but I don't think I was getting near the heat as the wood. If there is a draft fan though its obvious that there is a ton of heat that can be produced with the oil. Just blowing on the flame you will really see it come to life and the flames will get whiter instead of a dark orange which shows its burning dirty.

[ghurd]

I figured it wouldn't be hard to filter it after a long time settling, through panty hose, jeans, then maybe 2 series oil filters.

Forced air is not an option.  The whole house runs from a couple hundred watts of solar.  No power for some of the 15A 110VAC blower designs.

There is a guy who sells plans for an improved Mother Earth News version.
He states people ask about WVO, and says he tried it for a short test and it worked.  To me that sounds like it had problems, like the plates plugging up?

Pepa's works, but I never saw the burner assembly dumbed down enough for me to understand it.

G-

[Bruce S]

I figured it wouldn't be hard to filter it after a long time settling, through panty hose, jeans, then maybe 2 series oil filters.

There is a guy who sells plans for an improved Mother Earth News version.
He states people ask about WVO, and says he tried it for a short test and it worked.  To me that sounds like it had problems, like the plates plugging up?

Pepa's works, but I never saw the burner assembly dumbed down enough for me to understand it.

G-

G-
settling, jeans & hose is about all you'll need, distance for oil can to be is pretty much dead on what TomW said.
With fire going if the side of the oil can is just warm, then it's close enough to keep even the room temprature stuff liquid.
Pepa's setup going to his fireplace was a copper tubing crimped down to a very small hole (5/16' drill size maybe smaller looked more like 0.050)
He used a brass fitting (like the off/on "T" fitting for ice maker) to dial in the regulation.
I have a close up of it somewhere the 1000s of pics we took. I'll see if I can find it pronto.
IMO the plans are not worth buying, I've seen the updated version and it still has the problem of drip regulation.
Go with this coal burner setup first

[jenkinswt]

If your going to drop it on hot coal I am not sure if there would be any advantage of filtering it? When I first started collecting wvo from my wifes work I tried blue jeans but I was going to try to get it really clean and I used the double knee portion out of my old jeans. It wouldn't flow through it very good at all. I should have tried the normal jeans but it just seemed messy since I was doing it inside the house. At my wifes work they use a funnel shaped stainless steel basket with cone filters. She got me a box and the metal funnel and I think it was 20.00 maybe it was 30 but I don't think it was even that high. The box came with 50 filters. I have filtered probably 1000 gallons, I could have filtered more but always threw them away when I was done. I ended up just buying a rain barrel and put the funnel filter over it and I would get the oil in a 5 gallon bucket then dump it right in the funnel filter and it would pour right in the barrel without all the chunks. I used a sump pump with a whole house filter and then a goldenrod diesel filter that has a water seperator. Worked pretty good but I want to get a different pump, possibly a hand crank pump. I have a barrel pump that I only used once that I might try adapting to it.
I
If it was a stand alone stove without a blower I think I would basically rig up a large drip pan with a couple of plates above it with holes in it. I would make the plates easy to take out and remove as well as the pan for cleaning. The one I built I copied their design completely and it was all bolted together and used a stainless frying pan for the bottom. That bottom pan was way too weak and quickly warped when it got hot. If the plates were red hot when the oil lands on them it would really aid in burning. Mine worked really well with the plates and the 4" intake with a funneled enclosure until the plates started plugging up and the bottom pan started warping. I doubt there is a clean way to burn these without a blower though. I did notice it burned cleaner with the wvo than the motor oil but not as much heat. I think on a 4" intake pipe even a fan like what is on the back of a computer would really help it burn hotter and wouldn't use much electricity. I don't know if there is a fan this small that wouldn't get too hot though, an all metal one of some sort.

[Bruce S]

G-
Here are a couple pics of Pepa's setups.
1st pic is his control for fine tuning oil dripage.

Next is the complete system for cooking water out of oil, using the worst of stuff not suitable for reclaiming, along with automatic stirrer.

Next is a closer view of his burner.


He used the same type of control for fine tuning the oil dripage on both in-house and de-watering system.

Hope this helps make it clearer than mud 
Bruce S

[ghurd]

Yes, clear as mud.

I need more about the burner.
All it looks like to me is a fire in something black.   
G-

[Bruce S]

Yes, clear as mud.

I need more about the burner.http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php?action=post;quote=981308;topic=144884.0;num_replies=7;sesc=61d3659fb5041d5c30db02c3ed65658f
All it looks like to me is a fire in something black.   
G-

Good all the pics loaded nicely.
The burner (I wish I could get him to answer my emails), is an old cut down tin can with a grill handle for pulling it out to add paper and oil to start the fire. was a little bitty thing.
He'd put just enough waste paper in it to soak up some nasty oil, close the flue, you can see in the 2nd pic on right side. Light the fire it would smoke a bit.
Once the fire had burnt the paper he'd open the flue and turn on the oil dripper which you can just see the copper line on the right side.
Once it was heated up you could hear the flue roaring air. He did say the tin cans would burn through cause they could get so hot, was going to try an old cast iron pot.

I remember this pretty clearly as we talked about his entire setup for most of the day. His oil was almost as clean as when new.
I can build one up from memory , but not the legs his son & grandson built and welded up for this setup.
Any better?

[ghurd]

So where the oil is burning, it is just a pot?
No double plates full of holes?
No upside down bowl in the bottom?
G-

[Bruce S]

So where the oil is burning, it is just a pot?
No double plates full of holes?
No upside down bowl in the bottom?
G-

Correct. Just a pot. None of the other stuff.
Pepa, said he didn't see the need so long as the oil and paper that was used to start the whole thing made the pot hot enough to start burning the oil as he opened the drip control then vaporize the nasty oil as it got hotter.

In the 2nd pic, the barrel that the Aluminum pot is sitting on, was cut so the heat from the burning oil would funnel up it, the flue was just slid down on top of an opening.
The flue draft was way up near the very top. The barrel has the 1/4 angle iron welded on it to make the seat so-to-speak, bottom of it was open for fire and air updraft.
 
The barrel would get real hot quickly if he didn't keep an eye on it.
When the fire was going you could look at the pan bottom and it drips would just barley make it before they were burning. This one had a bigger opening for the garbage oil he used, and flow was controlled by those red shut off valves.

 

[Bruce S]

G-;
The copper tube that is on the backside does not just go over the fire . He had it bent around towards the left hugging the barrel, this kept the oil hot and fluid unti it dripped , also helped pre-warm the copper coming out of the stove, and back towards the holding tank that was an old 15gal grease tank that still had the lid ( thankfully  ).

Bruce S


Here's a not so good pic of him and his barn heater. It was an old fuel-oil burner he had, he did pretty much the same as outside. BUT this thing would get blazing red hot.
In this one he had the original iron bottom still there. He lit it the same way, paper and small puddle of oil. Closed flue 90 % and smoky for a little while then started the drip and open flue until warmth was going then used red valve to control the oil flow.

 
 

[ghurd]

Thanks.  Now it is all starting to make sense.

I still can't quite figure out why MEW and those improvement-plans-for-sale need the plates with all the holes and material under it,
or why people bother making WVO into Bio-D to burn it.
G-

[Bruce S]

Thanks.  Now it is all starting to make sense.

I still can't quite figure out why MEW and those improvement-plans-for-sale need the plates with all the holes and material under it,
or why people bother making WVO into Bio-D to burn it.
G-

I've done both and I can give my opinions.
The M>E>N> one was the first to try and go with something that would work indoors, like having the whole thing in a work shop and they wanted it to be environmentally clean as well. So they built theirs to meet this range.
The NEW improved ones are to fix the problem of the tin can wearing out, plus the fact that M>E>N> used Asbestos  for soaking up the oil instead of paper.
Is supposed to be much better and isn't harmed by heat, NOW kinda hard to won though  .

The plans I've seen are much better than original, still has problems with control. Hotter but still fluid control is still hands on.

The WVO to Bio-D to burn, from what I've messed with is due to injector size.
There's a Aussie here in St. L that owns the same style and year of MB except his is 4cyl and 4speed.
We talked a long time of one versus the other.
He uses WVO that's been filtered to 10microns only. He also has reworked how his MB gets the oil to the motor.
He did quite a rework too. He has a 10micron fuel filter with built in Racor heater  12V electric fuel pump in front of normal pump then another two fuel filters after normal fuel pump that are 10micron and 5micron another heater on the 5micron filter. He also installed "11" sized injectors versus the "05" that come stock like mine.
I also have a turbo set currently at 8psi boost of winter.
His system has been this way for about 3 years, when he was transferred to St.L) and has paid nothing in fuel since then.

Me, the only thing I do is up the boost in spring to 9psi boost.

I average 27mpg he averages 16mpg, but we both know he'll get better than me if he finishes attaching the turbo I gave him  . They really do make a difference.

So, it's probably no more than what the people are comfortable with doing.
Mine has 176,000+ and its finally showing signs of needing a head gasket change. The MB people know I use my own Bio-D so they're anxious to see what it looks like.

FOR oil burners: I know when we lived in MI we had an oil burner and it had it's jets got clogged, & I like to have gone nuts cleaning it and getting it back assembled while the snow was screaming at the door.

 SO for those I'd say it's what they're comfortable with as well. Bio-D is pour and go. WVO it could mean new jets?

Kinda long I know, but hopefully it'll help.

Cheers

[mike_belben]

this is the best wvo stove thread ive ever seen
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8541078231/m/4541084781/p/1

[wdyasq]

I remember an 'improved' MEN oil burner that had a stainless conical burning pan. As the speed of the drip slowed, so did the area of oil and that feature kept it more viable over a larger range of conditions(claimed by the builder).

In my miss-spent mid-aged years we had a very good waste engine oil burner. I guess it is OK to divulge the secrets as A, most of the old folks are probably dead; B, those living are not too interested in computers and C, I doubt they care.

The 'heater' was an old oil drum filled with old cast iron parts and gears. We started it with a bit of diesel and an old shop rag. As the iron in the stove heated, the old engine oil drip into the flame area and into the hot iron/old gears. Air and oil flow was adjusted to assure one side of a persons body became overheated while the 'off-side' remained too cold to be comfortable. You wanted enough red glow to melt windbreakers but not ruin a wool or leather jacket quickly.

The kiln we fired with diesel had a "V" plate tilted slightly to drain toward the air inlet.  You fired it with a paper towel and diesel the started a drip at the high end of the plate and vaporized as the inrush of air hit the fuel. In this design, the combustion air was very pre-heated and it burned fairly clean, IIRC. BUT, we quit using diesel when got to $0.15 a gallon or so.

Ron

[oztules]

"we quit using diesel when got to $0.15 a gallon or so."

Last of the big spenders.....

Nice to see you here again Ron.



...........oztules

[DualFuel]

Dear Ghurd,
I have made B100 for nine years now. I make it for $.60 per gallon. I make 40 or 80 gallon batches. I heat 15 rooms (not counting three basements or closets) with a Perfection Oil Heater. It uses 5 gallons of biodiesel in a 24hr period. It uses no electricity, and can use pump diesel with out any adjustment. It uses a vaporizing pan and a double float regulator.
 The draw back is the combustion chamber must be cleaned of clinker every 5 days. I use a large hacksaw blade with my hand in two walmart bags (think disposable mittens).
The advantage is obvious. Even free fire wood cannot compete with the economy of pumping your heating fuel versus hand carrying it.
Even if you are in denial about learning to make your own BD, it should be considered. I would not consider using a drip system again. Bruce S expressed my frustration with waking in the middle of the night to find that the drip system has failed or worse the smoke alarm is blaring because it ran away again. The Perfection heater is a professionally built unit designed to last indefinitely. One note, B100 does not seem to work so well in a Jungers heater.
 Sadly, B100 is the only road fuel I have these days, so its back to burning firewood for me. Driving is too precious.
DF

[ghurd]

Hi DF,

In 2 parts-

1)
Sadly, there are a few reasons why that won't pan out for this case.

30 days x 5 gallons x $0.60 = $90.
Coal is cheaper, or so close it will not make any difference.  (I don't know what coal costs now, but [with the cost effective 'coal' infrastructure there] it was a lot cheaer than that last I knew)
{Plus he could sell Bio-D to farmers for more than that!}

My friend is disabled.  Guessing maybe 2 gallons is more than he should try to lift.  One more serious 'kink' and he is permanently wheel chair bound.

And he has no car.  Possibly paying someone to drive around collecting WVO will cost more than it saves in coal.
If I could scrounge up WVO in my travels and give it to him, that would maybe be a game changing factor, but I can not get up there as often as before.

2)
Perfection is a common brand name around here.
You wouldn't happen to have some year, model number, PDF, link, to your unit?  It has been a while, but I do not recall finding anything like what you are talking about.

If it can be worked out, possibly it could do the fill-in times between no fire and 24/7 fire.
Pretty uncomfortable at his place for me when it's 50F in the house.

5 days is not bad!  Less work than coal!
G-

[DualFuel]

http://www.westauction.com/auction/item/id/330/num/13654
This looks very similar to our heater. Our model is H9500. Our model is much older, before the Schwank take over. I will get a picture after I pick up the camera from GmaD's camp (she was taking pictures of the pumping action today).

Oof! Yes, a wheel chair is a constraint. I am confused as to how one shovels coal  from a chair but...that's for you to know.

Your friend would have difficulty moving the barrels of alcohol around too.

I do run ZTF oil (pure soybean oil) mixed 50/50 with diesel in the Perfection. Its decadent, to burn road fuel in the heater, but sometimes (like you) I don't like to simply survive at 50F.
 
 I am carrying on about this because I have concerns with using straight vegtable oil.  It amounts to a simple understanding of how the two types of fuels get used. BD and pump fuel is refined in a separate plant, but in order to use SVO the plant has to be installed upstream of the application. Vehicles need special heated tanks, bigger injectors, etc.  The drip heaters... well... I just haven't had the instant and repeatable kind of success, that I have had with BD.

 The one place where SVO does shine is in my Gingery furnace. I drip it in once the charcoal has got the refractory hot. It really melts aluminum faster then drain oil. I guess I don't know what relevance that has.

[mike_belben]

i would never dream of brewing BIO for a stove when its so easy to run straight WVO.  i heated my house with the crap that was too shmeggy to economically clean/dewater for vehicle fuel this winter.  probably less than $20 in my setup, its all in the pans, turbulent airflow through firechamber, surface area of stove, and adequate preheating of fuel. 

the real fatty bottom of the tank WVO smells like a house full of pancakes all winter.  like heating with butter.

[Bruce S]

i would never dream of brewing BIO for a stove when its so easy to run straight WVO.  i heated my house with the crap that was too shmeggy to economically clean/dewater for vehicle fuel this winter.  probably less than $20 in my setup, its all in the pans, turbulent airflow through firechamber, surface area of stove, and adequate preheating of fuel.  

the real fatty bottom of the tank WVO smells like a house full of pancakes all winter.  like heating with butter.

Could you put up those plans here? or were they purchased? IF purchased then I could understand the reason not to, but which ones would be a good indication of how your system is built.
A good "PAINT" drawn idea of what you're setup would be good too.
Glad it works out for you, one less think going to the landfill and saving a few $$ is always good fun  
Cheers;
Bruce S

[zap]

mmmmm... pancakes AND butter... does it get any better?

I'd probably gain 40 lbs with a heating system like that

[Bruce S]

mmmmm... pancakes AND butter... does it get any better?

I'd probably gain 40 lbs with a heating system like that

Add some bacon ( Meat candy ) and I'm done too 

[mike_belben]

[mike_belben]

any old reservoir in close proximity to preheat, but safe enough not to ignite.  a good needle valve that can be easily pulled off to clean.  some copper tube and some time.  the banana breadpan with tin sheet worked best for me, every stove needs trial and error.  think stainless, think preheat, think thin guage metals and turbulent air. 

best thread youll find. 

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8541078231/m/4541084781

my experiments start around page 17 or so

best thing i ever did was start filtering stove grease through a boot sock.  cut my clogging down 500%

[Boss]

You wanted enough red glow to melt windbreakers but not ruin a wool or leather jacket quickly.

Boy that does sound like the way the old(er) guys talked

[KraigM]

I was on this forum the other week that was all about modifying wood burning furnaces to burn WVO. Some used the many different drip techniques like the funnel and other methods. But some built a sprayer that would spray a constant fine mist of the oil over the flame to create heat. I think the hardest part would be finding WVO to use.