Utility Pole cost

[fabricator]

I have a friend who had some on a Polaris quad, they are a big trade off, it takes more horse power to drive the tracks than to drive tires, and steering is much harder and harder on the steering gear, the tracks are harder on the entire drive line because the parts meant to drive tires are now driving a lot more moving parts and also the tracks that get much better traction than tires, after lots of drive line problems he got rid of the tracks, I know where there is a set for sale along side the road right now.

[ghurd]

[kitestrings]

Steve,

Zap has it right, as does fabricator.  The tracks are much improved now - slightly smaller and more articulated on the bottom (as in Zaps photo).  I believe the ones we get here are made in CA - "Caribou" I think is the brand name.  This and power assisted steering makes turning them much easier.  They are very expensive - about $3k for a set.

We use this one for (maple) sugaring.  It is an awesome machine.  They go almost anywhere, through lots of variable snow conditions over unbroken terrain.  And, you can carry alot.  They are tough as nails, and for us it takes the place of a tractor, cost less to operate and does less damage.  Lastly, you can have great fun if you have a place to ride.



Neil and I hauled all of our tools and rigging to a wind site with it - late fall/early winter - that we couldn't have gotten to otherwise.  Hi marks from me.

~kitestrings

[kitestrings]

My opologies for jacking this thread (or contributing to the same), though it doesn't appear the originator is, or has been, listening.  I'll be over                                                         h  e  r  e                              serving my timeout, and thinking about how I could behave better in the future.

~kitestrings

[SparWeb]

Kitestrings,

When the moderator himself posts Off-Topic pictures in the drift...  you can be forgiven.  This post hasn't been, shall I say, the most constructive, but your previous contributions saved it as much as possible.

BTW, you write like you're very experienced, but in your picture you don't look a day over 14.  How do you stay so young?   

[Steve Trumann]

Sorry Guys,

I didn't mean toe get off topic.  Just saw something that I would like to have. You know boy's and their toys.

Steve Trumann

[artv]

Back to the question?....I think wood poles will last a life time,

thats how I'm gonna build my tower............artv

[fabricator]

Back to the question?....I think wood poles will last a life time,

thats how I'm gonna build my tower............artv

Depends on the size of the mill and the size of the wind, and whether that pole has a knot you can't see, or a spot that's getting rotten inside, another thing is you're gonna need slip rings with a pole, you can't hang the cord inside a pole, slip rings are just one more thing to go wrong.

[ChrisOlson]

Back to the question?....I think wood poles will last a life time
thats how I'm gonna build my tower............artv

This is main street in my hometown.  Notice how that power pole is leaning to the west.  I looked at it one day and it's all rotten on the bottom.  Only the wires are holding it up.  They won't replace it until it goes down.

Notice the tower in the right of the photo with the array of scrap iron welded to the top of it.  That tower belongs to the telecom company, it doesn't meet the same setback requirements that everybody else has to meet, and it also leans to the west.  The foundation gave out in sustained 60 mph winds last fall.


--
Chris

[ghurd]

another thing is you're gonna need slip rings with a pole, you can't hang the cord inside a pole, slip rings are just one more thing to go wrong.

Before my "really really tall fence post tower" was shot down by a calculator,
my plan was to make a stub with brackets/gussets/flanges (not sure what to call it) so the turbine sat on the stub, the stub would be fastened to the side of the pole, and conduit down the side of the pole to keep the wire contained.

There has to be something steel up there for the yaw bearing anyway.  May as well off-set it so the wire drops down next to the pole, because it is easier than slip rings!
G-

[oztules]

Interesting thread........ including a  lot of non-essential negativity by a few folks.

This is a DIY site. It is always easy to find reasons not to do things, and always easy to find safety issues if you make up your own worst case scenarios.

I have free 12 meter steel poles from traveling irrigation systems no longer in operation......... large diameter (225mm), 4mm walls and galvanized, and complete with end flanges and I have old power poles 12m long.... also free. Both can/have been used, and are interchangeable..... they are just poles.

I would not consider digging either type into the ground to hold a mill without guy wires.  Thats asking for trouble. Tilt up towers are the go for me.

There are differences... one is heavier than the other. If you have machinery like me, that is of no relevance, as I could toss both types about the place without any issue, if not you need more poles to make gin poles with.

Beyond that both are much of a muchness, and for all intents and purposes are interchangeable. If you find you can get either type cheaply or free, then thats the one to use.... just use it sensibly..... this would not include free standing........ thats a whole lot different.

Mankind did lots of things before he became mesmerized by OH&S stuff. The ones that thought about the project had success, those that didn't, got carved out of the gene pool............ in short, it is as easy to screw up with a steel pole, as with a wooden pole. I don't see the issue. A rust ridden pole and poor design  is akin to a rotten wooden pole with poor design.... both will fail. Just use common sense.

I use a steel pipe for the last 8  feet or so on the wooden ones, bolted to the side of the pole. Only the last foot or so projects above the pole top.... for the yaw stub. This allows you to use wire down the pipe for your twist, rather than using slip rings....(good for the last few years at least) everything is solvable if you want it to be.... and yes you need a touch more angle on the mill head to keep the blades well away from the "back side" of the pole.

Judging from the comments thus far, you would think metal towers  never fail, and that wooden ones are death traps. I disagree. The builder and whats in his head  is the difference between success and failure.

This is a DIY site. People can run up the street whenever they feel the urge and buy new everything... no need to talk to the folks here...... but running up the street and buying everything new is not my idea of DIY.

Live on a remote island for a bit, and some folks may appreciate using what is available a whole lot more..........and it's a whole lot more satisfying when you MAKE IT WORK!

12 meters is high enough over here, some mills here are making far to much power at this height  ( 3.6Meter AWP with transformers), so height requirements will be determined by site, and availability of materials..... the latter will be the final determinant for me.... you cant make it if you don't have the makings .


DIY is positive objectivity. Negativity achieves nothing but more regulations on what not to do by the Nanny State.....



......................oztules


edit Ghurd posted whilst I was typing..... exactly that idea Ghurd ... it works well.

[ghurd]

edit Ghurd posted whilst I was typing..... exactly that idea Ghurd ... it works well.

My tall fence post 4x4" (10.16x10.16cm?) would work with guys, but if it needed guys a tilting tower would be a better choice for very little more money... and that was just for a 4~5'.
I did not want guys, but if they are required anyway then I do not want to use an extension ladder (do the math on that dumb idea!).
G-

[hayfarmer]

  I have a 28 foot telephone pole I use as a flag pole,buried 6 feet in ground and tamped well no concrete,  its on a very windy ridge line getting upslope winds from all directions.

  the flags are ripped to shreds about every year or two cause of the winds. right now I have them off needing replacement again. I can push on the pole and move it from the earth

  settling from the wind force pushing against the 2 flags, and cant imagine if it were a larger object like a wind turbine mounted on a wood pole with no guys and no concrete

  and a much higher height. the great thing about this board is its a great place to bounce ideas before attending the school of hard knocks[





   hayfarmer

[oztules]

Ghurd,
If using any pole I would use a tilt pole.......period..... I aint climbing anything soon.




..............oztules

[hydrosun]

Someone mentioned the wind generator on Guemes Island. I think he has three now on 100 foot douglas firs. His are heavily guy wired. My own system includes a toy wind generator (Air 403) at 110 feet without guy wires. It sways several feet in high winds.  It was put in 10 years ago to test the wind to see if it was worthwhile to invest in a larger real turbine. It wasn't but I still enjoy seeing the wind turn the blades and produce a little power on windy days.  To install it I bolted a 20 foot angle iron through the tree. Then heavy steel clamps go around the angle iron and around a 2 inch 20 foot pipe with a stub 1.5 foot pipe. We used a pulley at the top to pull the turbine and metal up. After the turbine is attached to the pipe I use a come along to push the pipe up through the clamps and then tighten the bolts on the clamps.  Loosening the clamps and with the come along I can lower the turbine 10 feet to where I can work on it while I'm tied into the tree. Yes, I have to climb a 30  foot rope ladder and then 70 feet of branches to get up there. Not sure how many more years I'll want to do that. I assume I'll have to take the toy down in the next 10 years to replace bearings and probably won't put it back up. Last fall I put 480 watts of solar panels facing southwest at 70 feet on that tree. They are in the sun for hours after the panels on my roof are in the shade. Gives us extra power in the evening when we cook dinner. They will put out way more power than the wind turbine. So I still will get power from the investment of wire that goes up the tree.
So bottom line, it's possible to do many things but that doesn't make it the best or easiest way.  But it can be fun to try different things.
Chris

[Wisdom Bear]

First I want to say, Thank You oztules.

I haven't been on because it seemed useless for me to bring up "anything". To many out there just want to shoot it down.
I haven't told you where I live, so you have NO idea of what kind of Building codes I may have to deal with.
NONE
I live in a county in Alabama that has NO Building codes what so ever. I can do pretty much anything I want to.

There has been much made here about how stupid I am for wanting to talk about Utility poles.
No one here took the time to ask, "What's your ideal"? "How will you get it to stand up to the wind force"? "How will you get the lines down the side of the pole"?
And many other questions that I might could have told you about.
It's been just attack.

Others have mentioned a metal sleeve at the top to mount the mill to.
I had already thought of that. Also about attaching a mounting to the side of it for wires to go down.
FREE STANDING! Even stupid me knew better.  It would need two levels of guide wires mounted into "guess what" metal pipe that surrounds the pole to give it strength.

DIY
Let me see here.
Free poles
Can install myself
Have lots of the parts I need now
7 + mph winds here almost ever day at 12' off the ground. "Yes I really don't know what they are at 40'"
NO CODES

The question for me is /was will it work?
I think the answer is already been made buy some that have used them. YES

Do I want to fight with you guys? NO
What I would like is to be able to ask a question here without being NAILED for how stupid it may sound to you when
you don't have a clue what my situation might be. Nor what any of the details are.

Sorry if that offends someone.
But there has been a number of plays on my name and what I may have read here or other places.
In other words, What I may know.
I don't know everything, never will.
Just trying to get by. With what I have to work with.
Kind of like most of you.

Again, Thank you to the ones here that have shown that it can be done. And that it is NOT totally STUPID.

I just might have to work harder than some with it.

[Tritium]

The quickest way to silence a naysayer is with pictures of a working installation. 

Thurmond

[zap]

The quickest way to silence a naysayer is with pictures of a working installation.

Amen!

[fabricator]

Not when the naysayer realizes the back breaking work involved in climbing a pole and lugging turbine parts up that pole and the laborious and very dangerous process of putting it together piece by piece far enough off the ground to kill you if you make one misstep.
When the alternative is to do all this on the ground and simply winch the whole thing up. this could be easily be done WITH a phone pole, but if the guy wants to take a giant step backwards, have fun and make sure your health insurance is paid up.

[artv]

Hi all,..The idea of using a single pole weather it be wood or steel dosen't appeal to me.I know that's the way most do it here it's, proven idea , but the thought of placing a couple hundred lbs. on top of a pole , then tilting up into the air.....the stress the pole see's can't be good for it.I think over time ,the pole will fail.  I am probably wrong though just my thoughts. I'd rather have a tower that I can climb stairs to get to the top, there have a platform where you could raise and lower the mast vertically.Thats what I'm building, when it's done I'll get some pics..........artv

[fabricator]

The way most here do it is a guyed monopole.

[Wisdom Bear]

Doesn't it seem like there may be more than just one way to do things after all.

There is a couple of pictures here in this forum that is of wood poles.
Seems like I wasn't the first to think of that.
And it also seems that it works for them.
hmmmmm.

[fabricator]

LOL, you didn't actually think you were the first to think of using a phone pole for a tower did you?

[beyonder]

LOL....no codes....I'm sorry to say but i can guarantee you are quite wrong.  No enforcement of codes maybe.  BUT building codes aren't the only ones to worry about, I would re-look into those no codes......a good example is here I can build a 200 square foot shed with NO permit.  BUT and there is always  huge ass but here, if for any reason the building inspector takes it upon himself to look at it and if it is not built to code ( although not enforced and no permit required )  he can legally make me tear it down.
 
I do not know all the regulations, however i can guarantee at some height for a pole you are regulated for safety lights or something, there is some CODE for it somewhere.  You should really look into that no code idea again.

Incidently i looked up Alabama :
 
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Codes of Alabama

Alabama, mainly through its counties and cities, has enacted a variety of codes and amendments. As of October 1, 2007 the Alabama Building Commission has adopted the 2006 International Building, Plumbing, Fuel Gas, and Mechanical Codes. The code applies to state-owned buildings, schools, hotels/motels and moving picture theaters. There is no statewide mandatory residential code, however many jurisdictions have adopted and enforce building codes. Check with the local jurisdiction for the code information.


 You may want to look again to make sure a tower for a windmill falls under the residential exemption.  In many area's here in canada they are not classified under residential even if it is ( but we have 4 different building codes here ( City....district....provincial and national ) and it's up to the inspector in which he follows here.   


  That being said, in your area IF you are possibly right and everything I said is meaningless, then you should consider getting a copy of the 2006 international building code, it has an entire section on alternative construction,etc.  I don't have the link, but I'm sure if you google it you can borrow a copy from the world wide library lol.
 
   What i don't understand is why your hell bent on using old telephone poles....why are you so against metal towers?  I get if they're free, use what you've got, but still they've been retired for a reason.  One possible reason could be the chemicals they were treated with, you could be polluting your ground.....if they became the case you may or may not come into problems with the environmental agency of your state.

 
 But since you are hell bent on using these poles.......when i looked into these a little while ago the biggest problem was deterioration, have you considered this?  I thought of possibly (at the time ) coating the pole with something to stop it from leaching chemicals ( fiberglass resin or something along those lines ) and then coating it in ferrocement to extend it's serviceable lifespan.  Another thing i had considered was a climbing cage like those going up the sides of buildings, for the eventual maintenance of the turbine.  I am curious as to your thoughts on those ideas?

 
 Clarence

[Wisdom Bear]

I guess that I missed something that you needed to know.
I never said that the state of Alabama does NOT have a building code, only that the county that I live in has no code (Or maybe better for you, NO code enforcement office).

Not for building, plumbing or electrical. There is NO Inspector for it so seems that I wouldn't have to worry about him /her liking it after I build it.

And yes there is a light on tower code from I believe the FAA, that says that towers over 200 ft tall have to be lighted and permitted.

Oh and LOL Fabricator, No I never really thought that I was the first. Why do you think I started this thread. Oh it was to see who could tell me something use full about Utility pole towers.

I really don't have time to keep making responces to people that just plan have another way of doing things and are so set against people that just don't need to follow in some one's foot prints. I may need to learn this from this side. I may find something that some one else missed that makes it a good thing. Who knows.

When I get my tower (poles) up. I will send a few pictures with more information about how it works for ME. No one here HAS to do it this way, just the way I want to do it.

Again, Thanks to the ones that had good input for me to use.

[beyonder]

 Funny story for you...I am NOT required to get a building permit to build a deck if it is less than 1 foot off the ground. So me not knowing much ( When I did this) did this using old pallets.  No permits...no inspections....Building official was at the neighbors house doing an inspection one day...seen my deck.....can you guess how long i had to take it out and rebuild it "In Accordance To Code".   When I say be absolutely sure I am speaking from a 'no code enforcement' experience.    And yes my man, you do have building inspectors...official's or whatever you call them, they're job just isn't to enforce a residential code. This does not mean it does NOT exist, and all it takes is 1 phone call for a nosy neighbor, passer by, etc.  Another thing....the CODES whether is be regional...county....city...state/provincial...national...or international are for your own damn SAFETY!


   Now that being said, I asked your thoughts on some things as you are planning to do this....but you insist everyone wants you to do it there way............lol.   I think you should start a thread that says "I'm using old discontinued poles that i am going to ignore why they were taken out of service, to put a wind turbine up on, please congratulate me & tell me how great I am" lol.   
   So here you go " Congratulations, you are so great....you have given an EXCELLENT example of what NOT to do here and how not to react when someone doesn't like your idea".
   I sincerely hope no one is there when you do this, as I am sure with everything you will ignore all those 'useless' safety measures....lol..   

   A close mind wont get you anywhere here man....

[birdhouse]

wow, that was intense...
i don't think wisdom bear's idea is fully flawed, i just don't understand the logic.  if he's gonna spend enough money on turnbuckles, cable, cable clips, shackles, concrete/duckbills ect. to do two separate guy heights along the tower, why stick with wood for the tower? 

4" pipe can be had at salvage for $50-80 per 20' chunk.  so an additional $100-160 to have the pole be steel when the rigging is gonna be a few hundred bucks anyways?  it just doesn't make sense to me.  i'm guessing he is not a welder, and more comfortable with through bolts ect, which could explain a lot. 

i guess if you got a pole for free, and lathered it up with the best oil based ext. primer you could find, it may last a while...  but after a few coats, that primer would cost as much as at least half the steel pipe.  (which i understand needs primer/paint too, but WAY less) 

or maybe he'll just let it sit 'til it rots, and replace as needed.  even that sounds like a lot of repeated work. 

i've worked at "death" heights, in a harness,  roped up many times yarding around heavy windows, stove pipes, exhaust fans, chimney caps, ect.  i never like it.  it really isn't fun.  i do it because i can charge a good wage for doing such things.  i would never want to do that sh*t on my own property if i had another choice.

again, i just don't understand the logic of risking ones life on a regular basis for less than $200

furthermore, if he did go steel, he wouldn't be limited to 40-50 foot...   

i understand the mentality of making it work with what is free/cheap, and i go that route often, but this is way beyond. 

wisdom-  these are just MY thoughts.  go ahead and do what YOU think is right!  because in the end, that is what will make YOU happy.

adam

[beyonder]

   The first flaw is the poles he is using.  They are used and have been retired from service by the local utility company. The question is why?  Here at least the power company retires there poles when the are deemed to no longer be save to use as a pole.
 
   The second flaw is he will not listen or discuss anything with anyone.  Some have said don't do it...and have given valid reasons, in a previous post i asked his thoughts on encasing the pole with ferrocement to extend the life of the pole and make it safer..  his 'thoughts' as he is planning to do this regardless. 

   The problem with painting, is most power poles are treated, neither of which are going to last on a pole like that. 
 
   If he lets it sit until it rots, it rots ( which will be sooner if not already ) since its a retired power pole, one good wind and he's lost his pole, his turbine and possibly his life, that is why i asked his thoughts on encasing the pole with ferrocement.  HE couldn't be bothered to answer or have a simple conversation about it. He closed his mind and stayed on the defensive.

[ginger48]

I'll admit I haven't read this entire thread and don't think I would ever consider a wood pole for a turbine, however I'd like to make a couple of comments. First, there are many rural areas that do NOT have any building code enforcement. If there isn't any growth in the area, the local government isn't going to maintain a staff of code enforcement officials. I happen to live in one of those areas. We have had negative growth for the last 50 years. Second, given the right conditions, wood poles can last a long time. The utility pole in our yard that has a heavy transformer mounted on it is dated 1932 and still in very good condition.

[XXLRay]

Here is the (automatically translated) link to a german phone pole wind turbine project: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kleinwindanlagen.de%2FForum%2Fcf3%2Ftopic.php%3Fp%3D14389%23real14389&act=url

[jacobs]

Utilities replace poles for a variety of reasons but seldom due to fatigue. I've personally seen a lot of waste in utilities just as I've seen in government. Utilities never have to tighten their belts. If they get short on funds, they just ask for a rate increase and it's usually granted. If they were on tight budgets like many people, there would be very few used utility poles available.

Wood poles, if creosoted properly, do have very long lives. I was employed by the construction company that installed the second wood pole high voltage transmission line that supplies power to the town of Vail, Colorado. The first wood pole line to Vail, though still in use, didn't have sufficient capacity for the area's growth. Since Vail and Associates didn't want the lines visible from the valley, the lines were constructed almost out of sight to the south high on the ridge using wood poles. No unsightly highly visible steel towers to damage the elite's scenery and BLM didn't want any new roads built to aid construction. We built this second line in 1974 and due to the rugged terrain, many of the holes had to be blasted and hand dug. The poles were brought in and set using a giant Sikorsky helicopter owned by Erickson Air-Crane. Considering the construction and replacement costs, IF wood poles weren't projected to last a very long time, Public Service Company of Colorado, which was the owner of the line, would have designed a steel tower line and located the line further to the south and totally out of sight but at a much greater expense. As I recall, the helicopter rental rate was several thousand dollars/hour. Just think what that would be in today's dollars plus the labor to replace the poles. Even a utility with deep pockets is not going to intentionally construct a maintenance headache.

You can see portions of both transmission lines running along the ridge to the north of Interstate 70 between Vail and Wolcott. At Wolcott, they cross I70 and terminate at the substation on the south side just above I70.

These newest poles are now 37 years old and are still in excellent condition. How many home built or commercial wind generators will still be operational when they're 37 years old? I don't think there's an issue with the lifespan of wood poles regardless of new or used. There may be issues with using wood poles but knots, rotting and subsequent failure isn't one of them.
.
Once I got used to heights, even at 65 years of age, I still really enjoy climbing a tall tower. That said, I'll admit everything I do in the air takes longer to accomplish than on the ground. It's a lot more funner up high except in the winter when the wind is howling at 60+ mph. The views are fantastic. I have a pair of old spikes. Once I replace the leather I'm going pole climbing. Iron workers and linemen wouldn't have jobs if they insisted on staying on the ground. Like I was told many years ago by a lineman, when the going gets tough, the tough gets going. Here's a REAL tower http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=41d_1284595041

Regarding building codes. Most, if not all buildings built before WWII were built without any building codes. How many old buildings have you seen or heard of with structural problems caused by faulty construction?  I was informed by a relative, 2 years ago, that Delta County in Colorado was considering adopting and enforcing a building code but to date, there's still NO building code outside incorporated areas. There are many other counties w/o codes. Some people have a hard time understanding life without the government holding their hands and enforcing the Uniform Building Code but for many in rural areas it truly does exist.

[beyonder]

 Shame we don't have your utility company here.... perhaps its the difference in our weather patterns being so much further north than you.  Majority of poles here your lucky to see 10 yrs out of before they're replacing ( that being said there is 1 near by that is 20ish yrs old and being supported by other shorter pole ).
 
 Building codes exist, your country has a national building code, whether you have anyone local to enforce it or not is another thing.  The fact is there is no reason to not follow a building code ( enforced or not ) they're there for your own SAFETY.

 Creosote, I'm surprised you can use it in the states still, it was banned here in Canada, and in many larger cities they've switched to concrete poles for longevity. Not to mention toxicity which negates the part of saving the environment by generating clean green power now doesn't it?
 
  Maybe its just a Canadian thing, this safety eh.... but to many people get hurt by taking pointless risks.

 
  Regardless tho, i think i would take a core sample from the pole before installing it, just to be sure it was good, regardless of external appearances.

[jacobs]

Here in the US we have several different building codes that can be adopted. The individual towns and counties decide if they want to adopt a code and if so which code they want to use and enforce. I agree it is prudent to do construction according to a code, but regardless of which code you follow, you probably won't be in compliance with all the others. Sparsely populated rural areas in the west and midwest seldom have any building codes, enforced or otherwise.

I've purchased many new creosote treated fence posts for my personal use around the farm, then drilled holes in some of them or shortened them. The creosote treatment in all cases only penetrated about 25%. It's not surprising they only last about 20 years. I have about 50 old creosote treated 8" x 8" x 6' guard rail posts that are at least 40 years old that was removed from Interstate 70 during a widening project that are still in excellent condition. Guard rail posts all have holes drilled in them to be able to bolt the guard rail to them. It's very easy to examine the depth of treatment in them and yes, the treatment is 100%. The key to longevity is in the initial treatment.

The worst problems over the years with creosote and the environment has been with the treatment plants. There have been numerous superfund cleanup sites at old plant sites. If we reuse something is already used and treated, we cannot do any additional damage to the overall environment.