Author Topic: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine  (Read 32334 times)

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methanolcat

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25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« on: May 04, 2011, 09:41:00 PM »
Where to begin,


             I have a lot to think about and do for this new turbine. Not sure on diameter just yet, somewhere between 25 and 30 foot. I'm looking to get into the 15 to 20 kw range.

1. build new tower capable of supporting such a beast. 4 inch square tube 1/4 thick 40 foot long for the legs, and either a 6 or 8 inch tube, schedule 80, mast around 20 feet long. This needs to last the rest of my life with no tower maintenance. It will tilt up just like the one I have and I doubt I will be climbing it much if at all.

2. build a low maintenance gearbox, very much like Chris Olson and fabricator did. 6:1 sprocket and chain. I have started on the gearbox and I think just the gearbox is gonna weigh in around 250 pounds. It has a 3 inch diameter blade input shaft.

3. build a jacobs type feathering hub (centrifugal controlled to keep blade speeds reasonable) maintenance required (grease probably 3 times a year, we will see) All steel for the hub has been acquired and rough sketch drawn up.

4. generator, build new or use current generator. Need to do some discussion on this before deciding.

5 make new blades, been thinking of making some of the GOE222 design but the ones I have now perform very well so I may just make the same blades and upscale them, not sure yet.


      I will post pic's and progression as I get going, need to take some pics now of current state of gearbox.

Wide open for suggestions and comments and will most likely need some help from some of the brainiac's and number crunchers here on the board from time to time.

      First thing I want to do some serious discussion on is the generator I have and what it can handle if geared up 6:1.  Here is what I have as far as output goes in unloaded volts, wire gauge is 16, and I think I will wire it up 3 delta and try to get it running 1800 rpm's or higher using the gearbox.



      I need to wire it that way and check resistance and post the numbers.

      I guess what I don't know is where is the limit, there has to be some limit somewhere where X amount of magnet can only produce X amount of power no matter what the rpm, so is there a limit and where is it and what makes it the limit, does anyone know?

      Also, does anyone know the safe rpm limit for a 25 to 30 foot diameter blade set as that will also play a role in generator rpm's. I have been tempting fate too long with the current 15 footer letting it run sometimes in excess of 600 rpm's.

Janne

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2011, 05:57:26 AM »
Hi Matt,

Congrats on your new project! No doubt, a machine this size will be a major project, but with your skills it should be reasonably achievable.

About the generator, the thing that you will need to pay attention is, that on higher speeds the current output of the generator will start be reactance limited, that will ultimately limit the maximum power you will be able to extract from the generator. If you can power up the generator in a bench, and measure output currents to a known resistor bank value on different speeds, you should be able to estimate the reactance factor on the generator. My guess is that it will not be a problem, as you can rely on pitch control and (I'd suggest at least) brakes on the main shaft to control the speed of the machine.

Have you though about steering to the wind, up- or downwind? In any case, with machine of this size I'd like to see some form of damping on the yaw, to reduce the gyroscopic forces.

On my late fathers' old design, the automatic shutdown speed for the 12m rotor was 2 r/s, and with the 8.8m diameter rotor it was increased to 2.5 r/s. I'd assume you could go a bit higher, if you make a strong hub design, but I'd limit the design speed to around 200rpm maximum, as that already means a near 80m/s tip speed, and it would still allow you to run the machine with peak efficiency up to windspeeds of around 10m/s.

Other than that, build it strong, add a reliable brake to the slow speed shaft, do some calculations to make sure the tower is up to the forces up to the storm wind speeds, and I'm sure it will be fine.

I hope to see some pictures of this project soon :)

 
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methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2011, 07:46:57 PM »
Janne,


         On this reactance limited issue, I tried to find out more by searching but everything I came up with looked greek to me and was hard to understand although I do have a minor understanding of it. Before finding out about it, I thought my only limit would have been the amount of current the windings could carry without burning up.

         I can wire the generator 2 delta and put the generator in a lathe at work and spin it it up at a few different speeds and monitor current into a fixed load as you suggested and post some numbers, volts, amps, fixed load resistance and rpm's. If you can help me out from there, it would help me figure out whether or not to use this generator or build a bigger one. I'm gonna need to know this before too long because I am working on the gearbox, of which the generator will mount to, so mounting decisions need to be made.

         I want to keep the peak voltage reasonable, no higher than 300v or so I would think, but high enough to keep the amps low as well. Looking at my voltage test chart, maybe I should wire for 2 star. That would put me making around 250v at 1200 rpm's and through the gearbox keeping the prop shaft at 200 rpm's. But the voltage will be lower with a load on it so its all a guess and a lot of experimenting right now. Maybe 6:1 isn't high enough, we are talking about a lot of power with such a big prop. I guess this is why not too many venture to far out from the smaller known designs.

        So another question, does the reactance change from one winding configuration to another for example, 1 star, 2 star, 2 delta, 3 delta and if so that may change decisions as well.

        According to Alton-moore wind calculator, in about 32 mph wind is where I would be at 200 rpm's (30 foot blades), maybe lower (blade design pending) and there is about 47,200 watts (63 horse power) available at the blade, give or take, thats quite a bit and I'm wondering if 6:1 gearbox is enough.

        I'm not sure what questions need answered first in order to proceed forward, maybe I should halt on the gearbox until I do some further investigating.

        Anyone have any useful information which could help to shed some light on some of these decisions?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 07:58:44 PM by methanolcat »

Janne

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2011, 10:36:34 AM »
About the reactance.. In reality, the windings' ability to carry current will be the deciding factor on how much power you can extract from the generator, in the long term. Reatance would in all probability be a bigger problem, if you intended to use shorting out the generator as means to stop the machine, as it might limit the short circuit current too low to slow it down. Mayby Flux, or oztules or someone else will chime in with their experience regarding iron cored machines? Anyways, with the simple speed test on a lathe the reactance factor would be easy to calculate.
I'd assume that the winding configuration would not change the (percentage) effects of reluctance on the generator. With more coils in series, you will have more reactance, but also the voltage will be higher and the current lower. Many "mights" and "maybys" in the thinking above, it's mainly my gut feeling speaking. So unless someone with more experience can comment on this, I'd recommend running the tests.

Can you go much higher than 6:1 with a single stage chain transmission? It would make sense to find a bigger motor frame to convert to a PMG, so you could stick with relative low gearing. I don't know if it's such a big problem with chain drives, but with gearboxes things start to get noisy above 1500RPM.
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oztules

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2011, 08:03:39 PM »

The synchronous impedance will be all the things, that bundled up together will work to stymie our attempts to get the output we want, from the thing we have got to use for the purpose.

If we use an axial flux, with big magnets, then essentially it is just a resistance game to find your upper limit.... ie how much power can the stator shed in the form of heat to stop it deteriorating.

The next problem we encounter is the inductive reactance, which is a linear function. It is simply the impedance that the inductive characteristics of the stator winding presents to current flow, and is dependent on the stator inductance and  frequency.  If we know the inductance, and the frequency we are interested in, we know the impedance it will present to the current flow.

The next one is not commonly discussed in windmill forums like these. Possibly because we deal mostly with axial flux designs, which by their construction push this problem to the bottom of the heap..... it's this pesky reactance we speak of when we talk of iron core machines.

With all endeavors in generating electricity from rotating machines, we need flux linkage........ this means we need to get our operating flux to penetrate the coils in order to generate an EMF..... simple enough. we wave a magnet past a wire and get EMF. Thats cool, but we also know that if current flows through a wire (the general idea here), it will exhibit a magnetic field of it's own making. It will be in opposition to the magnetizing force we used in the first place.

This sets up a problem. We need all the flux from the magnetizing field (magnets) to penetrate the coils for us to get the maximum benefit, but we have opposing fields trying to stop us. The net result is that we cause some of the incoming flux, to NOT link the coils, and find some other more amenable flux path, which does not benefit our generator..... ie we lose some of our flux to some other flux path.

This problem was caused by current flow in the stator coils, so the more current we cause to flow in the coils, the more interference with the magnetizing field we cause.... we can see where this leads, in the extreme, the current flowing in the stator presents enough megnetomotive force  (MMF) in opposition to the magnetizing MMF, that we get a stalemate at some point. We see this point when we short a mill, to stop it, only to find it runs away instead.... amp turns.. not watts. It runs away because we are no longer linking all the flux through all the turns. Use less flux, need less torque..... mill runs away...........

With axial flux, the magnets are very strong, and the air gap very big, and no core to focus the field, so it is much harder for the back MMF to influence the magnetizing field... so we see these alternators as resistance limited (how much heat can you get rid of). The inductive reactance is of little consequence as the inductance of the air coils is very small, and so the frequencies needed to cause significant impedance are not practical considerations, and the armature reactance is similarly muted.

With iron cored things, we get more problems from the inductive reactance and the armature reactance.

Because we are using iron, we can use less magnet, and use small airgaps. Smaller magnetizing force channeled better through iron core stators, allow for better performance with less magnet.

Nothing is for nothing, and so we find that the inductance of the stator coils will be bigger, so the effects of inductive reactance will be more pronounced, and can indeed control things at high enough frequencies.... and the armature reactance becomes a capitol problem.

With less magnetizing force, and tight air gap, and a core to focus the back MMF against the magnetizing MMF, we are set for a true showdown.


It comes down to Ampere Turns..  You can use more turns at less amps, or more amps at less turns. It will produce the same magnetizing MMF, and current limiting will set in.

This overrides the resistance limit of the stator in some cases, and salient pole machines with long fingers and ferrite magnets, can run short circuit all day without over heating. The AWP can too.

BUT
If your going to generate such high power, you must be going to put it somewhere. The battery bank would be huge. I'm guessing grid feed??

If so, perhaps just use a big three phase induction motor, and drive the grid direct. (see breezy site for ideas). Your already building the gear box, maybe this could solve the generator problem simply too.

We have a 35 foot induction generator here, and it works particularly well, and has done so for over 25 years. Direct connect to the grid. No pitch control so big direct brakes are necessary. We dont use a motorbrake (like breezy), but brake the prop directly. It does have tip flaps.... I love em.



..................oztules

Must go will edit later perhaps
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Janne

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2011, 01:20:21 PM »
oztules,

Thanks for the lenghty writeup. I'll have to study it in more detail, it's a bit much to chew on one readup :)
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methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2011, 08:56:14 PM »
thanks oztules,

      That is a lot to chew and fully understand but it does help to give a better grasp. I can't go grid connect with a 3 phase motor cause we don't have 3 phase out here, or I would consider it. Now to do that with a single phase motor, I don't know of any big enough, seems your bigger motors are all 3 phase, plus theres a limit on how much I can put back into the grid here, and to keep this from getting too long, in basic terms grid tie is a rip off, at least around here.

      I do have a huge battery bank on its way later this summer, possibly fall before I see it. I also plan to use some of the power for my water heater. I get the most wind in the fall and winter, actually when I need the most power in terms of heating the house. I heat with corn, always 200 bushel to make it through the winter, this last winter I took a chance and only bought 100 bushel and luckily since last winter was my first with a turbine flying we did just fine, it made up for the other 100 bushel.

     On the corn issue, when I bought the stove, corn was the cheapest form of heat at $2 a bushel, I could heat my house for $400 for one winter. 8 years later, corn is now $7 a bushel, thanks to the ethanol plant that moved in 4 miles from me. So I am trying to get away from corn as much as possible, the only other alternative here for me is electric heat.

     Not too sure where I'm going yet with the generator but I am going to continue on with the gear box as I can pretty much hook up any generator I decide to use. Heres a few pictures of where I am with the gear box. The last picture has a can of Pepsi in it to show the size of this thing and the bearings I am going to use.

2954-0

flange thickness is 3/8", rolled steel ring is 1/2".

2955-1

drilling holes on mill

2956-2

top and bottom plate are both 1/2" thick, tube is 4" I.D. 3/8" wall thickness

2957-3

last picture showing scale of gear box and front bearing and some 3/8" plate to make gussets from.

     Matt

SparWeb

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2011, 12:24:03 AM »
Methanolcat!
Where to begin?!

Definitely be concerned about reactance limiting in a motor conversion. 
If you haven't followed my projects, I'm on my 3rd motor conversion.  I've done a 7.5 HP, too, but it has yet to fly (like yours).
I'm currently using the 3HP Baldor conversion, and I can easily measure the reactance limiting the output.
Here's what it looks like on mine:

2980-0

That is NOT furling.  That is the inability of the current output to increase, despite ever increasing speed and increasing open-circuit voltage.  The current is flowing through the windings, so every tooth of the stator is now a tiny electromagnet pointed backward at every one of the magnets.  They come into balance at some point depending upon the current density per turn (or something like that).  This one is wired in "Jerry", meaning each phase is rectified separately, and in Star, the reactance is even worse and the thing is limited to 600 Watts output.

This is all smaller scale than your project, but I think the lessons are directly applicable.  I don't know if I'm the self-appointed expert on motor conversions but I'll try to answer what I can from the experience that I have.  I spun up my 7.5 conversion, and the 3hp, on a lathe to measure power in & out.

From those tests I estimate that a 15-16 foot prop will be plenty for my 7.5 hp conversion, when I get around to it.  As it is, I think it's a good match for direct-drive at 48 volts, at that blade size.  Not so good for my current 24V system, so yet another reason I can't use it right away.

I have a few thoughts about the gearbox and feathering prop, too.  Not so much critique as doubt that it will come in under 250 pounds (your genny weighs over 100 already) or that it will be low-maintenance.  You are extremely talented and resourceful, that is not what I'm questioning.  It's the thought of spinning the genny 6x faster, which uses up the bearings 6x sooner.  Admittedly the gearbox takes the rotor loads instead of the genny shaft, but you still aren't scott-free.
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SparWeb

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2011, 12:27:10 AM »
Uh that's not legible.  Try this:

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2011, 11:35:48 PM »
SparWeb,


    Your right, my generator by itself weighs around 100 pounds, actually closer to 80 pounds (mine has the thick sheet metal case instead of more common full iron cases). I'm not trying to save on weight, I want strong and I actually said    "I have started on the gearbox and I think JUST the gearbox is gonna weigh in around 250 pounds."    No big deal.

    I'm estimating the feathering hub to weigh about 75 lbs +, blades about 40 lbs each, generator 80 lbs, gearbox 250lbs and swivel mount 40-50 lbs. That all comes to about 570 lbs.  Not a problem, throw in a tail and were over 600 lbs.

    I'll find out all about what reactance limiting is when I run some tests, I'm gonna wire a 20 kw load on the generator and run some tests at work and see what we can get out of it. I'm gonna hook up a thermocouple in the winding to monitor temperature.  I'll do testing at several rpm's and that should help figure out a gear ratio to use, if I can even use this generator.

   What was you able to to get out of your 7.5 as far as power, or do you know?

   Your estimation of 15 to 16 foot prop is close, mine is 15 foot and I bet I could cut it down to 14 foot and not notice much if any difference, maybe faster but mine gets too fast now.

    Matt

methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2011, 12:03:45 AM »
 My goal might be unrealistic or set too high or I may just have to work harder to achieve it. I can already see this project taking longer than planned.

    Some things I found out today, never use a sprocket with less than 15 teeth, unless its a low speed application and there isn't room for a bigger sprocket.  I was going to use 60 tooth and a 10 tooth, so now its 60 tooth and 15 tooth which drops me to 4:1 ratio.

   Also the chain is gonna be running close to the limits on surface footage, so I'm thinking sprockets and chain are no good for this, I am now looking into gears, about 1.5 to 2 inches thick. If I can't find something readily available, in the right price range $100 or less, free is always good, I have some resourceful friends, then I will just have to bite the bullet and make some, time consuming operation, been there done that.

   I'm not too far along yet on the gearbox to make major changes if needed, its just tack welded together. I don't think power loss in the gears is gonna be much of an issue with this size machine given the available power in watts at the blade. I would rather lose some power and have a more robust machine in the end.

   I have all new bearings, the largest bearings will support the main shaft (200-250 rpm's) They are designed for use in a 25 hp motor (continuous duty) running 1725 rpm so I don't see any problems there. The smaller bearings on the output shaft are also motor bearings, continuous duty at 3450 rpm, and the generator (formerly motor) has its own bearings so really not much load on them as there is nothing other than twisting forces on its shaft. I think I might pull one seal from each bearing and add a small oil pump and lines to spray oil on every bearing, or use catch pots with spouts to direct oil into the bearings, catch pots would catch slung oil from the gears, that would be easy enough to do but may not work well at low speeds, so maybe an oil pump would be best.

     Theres a lot more digging for information than I had thought just to get started, just glad I'm not too far in yet.

          Matt

oztules

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2011, 09:40:33 AM »
Gee you have it all in front of you Matt, but if anyone can.... you can.

Will be following your exploits  with interest.

Sparweb
" and in Star, the reactance is even worse and the thing is limited to 600 Watts output."
It's ampere turns that give you  your  flux (back MMF in this case) ......... more turns less amps...... (star) or less turns and more amps (jerry).....

Thanks for the graph.  I wish I was organized as yourself, then I might get some graphs of my own to work out how things are doing........

I just have to face up to the fact that I'm hopeless.




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SparWeb

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2011, 09:52:23 PM »
You've caught me in the middle of "moving" so it's hard to reply in a timely way.  No not moving house, moving website!   I'd like to link you to the test results from running up my Toshiba and Baldor conversions, however I just changed the site hosing "sparweb" so all my files down on my computer, not up where you can see them.  It'll be back and running soon, so you can go "www.sparweb.ca" tomorrow, follow the link to the motor conversions and -voila- lots of graphs and numbers, enough to make even Oztules jealous.

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methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2011, 11:16:33 PM »
SparWeb,

      Take your time, I'm not going to have this project finished up any time soon anyhow.

      Your power out numbers seem strangely low to me, just from what I have seen out of mine.  I think we both have similar but very different conversions unless I am mistaking. I do see some difference, mine has 36 teeth in stator, yours is 48 (is that correct).  I also from what I can tell see that you are using the factory winding and are you using 4 poles?  I did mine like zubbly did and I see very similar output numbers compared to his which seem to be much higher than you are showing, but I also see that you are charging batteries and maybe that has something to do with it. You, zubbly and I all used 24 magnets on the rotor, mine is 12 pole which works out for 36 tooth stator. I didn't see open volts on yours but I would think with factory winding that it would be quite high.

     Don't take anything I said as bad, as I don't know all the answers myself, just curious as to why the big differences.

     I wish I had more time this weekend but don't unfortunately, maybe some evening this week or next weekend I can get my generator up to the shop with my load and get more information on what I can actually get out of it, we have some pretty powerful lathes there that I am sure I can not stall out or harm doing testing on. I just have to be careful not to burn out my generator in the process,  ;D

     Definitely going to gear up some generator, I have several leads on gears that will out last me 1.5 - 2 inches thick in the 6:1 range, bull gear and pinion from old (sorry to some folks) 30's, 40's, and 50's tractors, ebay has quite a few and 1 seller is an hour away from me, so maybe a short road trip with a tape measure and $75 will get me what I need.

     I found a small oil pump in all my junk that would fit right inside the gear case to feed oil to all the bearings and gears, a big plus.

     Nothing further as of now, Matt

SparWeb

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2011, 12:47:21 AM »
Okay, it's back on line now.   Hopefully all of it   :-[

http://www.sparweb.ca/3_Gen_MoCo/Toshi.html

I didn't write nearly as much detail about the 7.5HP conversion as I did about the Baldor conversion I did last year.  There are scant pictures about the Toshiba, sorry, but I have other notes that I can look through for more details.  The process is about the same for all of these conversions I've done so flipping from one to another should help.

There are a lot of things you did with your 7.5HP conversion that I didn't do.  Those differences are probably very important.  If you actually are planning to do a test, I'll be the first in line to read it (no pressure man).  All my tests have been done with battery charging loads, so if you use resistance we're comparing apples and oranges again.

These motors all have lots of wires coming out of them, which waters down my spirit for re-winding the wires.  My Baldor runs in Star and IRP - I have a simple switch at the bottom of the tower, so I can run it either "fast" or "slow".  It does what I need it to.
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oztules

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2011, 01:25:32 AM »
Nice write up.

 
One day you'll have to bite the bullet and rewire and skew the stator.... :o


I think I'll just mosey on now.......before you throw something at me.....12 pole perhaps....



..............oztules
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ghurd

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2011, 03:25:57 AM »

I think I'll just mosey on now.......before you throw something at me.....12 pole perhaps....


A 17 pole is thrown.
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Madscientist267

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2011, 11:24:35 PM »
All I gotta say is 'holy crap'...

...that and I can't wait to see this thing flying...

I can't say for sure, but it's the biggest machine mentioned in the DIY category that I've run across on here...  :o

Will be watching closely! Someday all of this stuff will be of very great value to me... This one is no exception by any stretch of the imagination. I love reading the stories about the gigantor systems you guys build in the mean time, even though they are so far out of reach for me (currently) that it's not even remotely funny.  Funds, tools, you name it... :-\

Nobody will argue that the principles for 100W or 100kW are exactly the same, but the issues to overcome are radically different!

Keep us posted, it won't go unread! ;)

Steve
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How much magic smoke it contains does !

BigBreaker

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2011, 10:01:54 AM »
If you are making your own gears, I'd recommend looking into surface hardening treatments for the gear teeth.  Hardening will greatly increase the life of the gear train.  Just remember to "seat" the gears unhardened first so the run smoothly.

methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2011, 05:17:24 PM »
BigBreaker,

    Thanks, but I know all about making gears, types of materials to use and the different ways to harden the teeth or the entire gear. The big thing is, is that it takes more time than I would rather spend to do it. I have at my disposal everything I need to do it on, done it before, paid to do it on the clock, takes a lot of time to set up and do the job, then as you say, heat treatment. There is a lot to it, and I don't mind doing it for a customer (on the job) cause whatever I do all pays the same, but it would require quite a bit of my own time to do it for myself. Will most likely find some gears that I can use but if not, then I do have the other option of making them.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 06:29:54 PM by methanolcat »

methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2011, 05:39:43 PM »
Madscientist267,

       This is one of the biggest projects that I have ever done, the biggest when it comes to wind turbines thats for sure.

       The only reason this project is in reach for me is that I have access to the tools I need to do the job, cause I sure don't have the funds to do it. I also have quite a bit of materials available without cost as well, I havn't spent anything yet, as far as steel goes, did buy bearings though. ebay is great for about any size bearings you could ever need (surplus / new old stock) and at very low prices in most cases. I also have a lot of friends that owe me favors that can help to get some pieces now and then. When something is broke or needs made, they all come my way and I never charge them. You can't imagine some of the things they bring me to repair or make new parts sometimes. Most of the time it is make new because what they have brought me has crumbled from poor material choices or bad engineering in the first place.

       I will take pics and well document everything in this project. I have done quite a bit of searching and there is not anything of this magnitude on the internet anywhere. I'm sure it exists in someone's back yard as a finished project but that doesn't help me out.

       Much thanks from everyone here that helps or gives advice in this project as I know it is going to be a tough one for me in some areas.

wooferhound

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2011, 10:49:41 AM »
I have done quite a bit of searching and there is not anything of this magnitude on the internet anywhere. I'm sure it exists in someone's back yard as a finished project but that doesn't help me out.

Here is a huge homebuilt turbine. But it doesn't have any information on the fabrication.
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,137988.0.html

Madscientist267

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2011, 05:00:24 AM »
Whew!

I hope yours isn't as clunky... crazy trannymission and all that... LMAO Although it surely is a sight to see! ;)

It's still looking like you'll have it at least beat in the diameter department. They're calling it 20 feet...

That thing looks like it would be a b1+<h to work on... can't quite put my finger on why... ???

Maybe it's just the nacelle, makes axials look like pinwheels er sumpin...  :o

And don't it seem awfully close to the ground to be so big?

 :-\ ??? :D

Steve
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How much magic smoke it contains does !

methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2011, 12:05:05 AM »
Madscientist267,

     Oh man, I was going to make it really clunky  ;D

     It does look close to the ground, but mine might too, mine is going to be about 55 feet or so to the center of the blade hub, with big blades it might appear to be short. I think the large, busy looking tower might have something to do with it.

Matt

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2011, 12:43:57 AM »
Hey all,

      I did get the generator down this week and had some time today to take it to the shop for some testing.

      Testing didn't go so well, I don't think. The lathe I used has a 7.5 hp motor at 1725 rpm's, the highest rpm I could test at without overheating the lathe relays was 654 rpm's but only for a short time. I know there are some losses in power through the lathe but I seemed to over work it pretty easily at low rpms. What does that tell me? My generator ir more powerful than the lathe motor by far? That doesn't seem right. The lathe motor runs at 1725 rpm's, maximum testing could be done at 654 rpm's, thats about 1/3 the lathe motor rpm's so there should have been plenty of power seeing how the lathe was geared down compared to its motor rpm's.

      I'm not sure what I have is gonna be useful or not, I wanted to test using more power, theres apparently a lot of power in the wind cause I can get more power from my wind turbine than I can the lathe.

     On the reactance issue, here is what I have if someone could shed some light on my max power output with this generator. I tested at several rpm's, recorded volts and amps into a 10.8 ohm load.

179 rpm 55 volts 4 amps
256 rpm 78 volts 6.5 amps
351 rpm 105 volts 9.2 amps
494 rpm 142 volts 12.67 amps
654 rpm 177 volts 15.65 amps

       The generator was connected 1 star, voltage was taken across 2 of the 3 ac output leads and amps was taken from 1 ac output lead with a clamp meter. The ac from all 3 leads was rectified and sent into a 10.8 ohm load.

       I wanted to test at higher rpm's but the lathe wasn't going to allow it. I wanted to see first hand at what point the reactance started limiting power so that was quite a disappointment.

      I could drop the load resistance but I don't think it would make any difference, power is power and if the lathe doesn't have it then its just not going to make much if any difference, I don't think. It would allow higher rpm testing but I think this reactance problem, from what I understand is a power (volts + amps) kind of factor.

      There is a second lathe I could use, much more powerful but its max rpm is 525 rpm's and I really think I need something with more power at higher rpm's and not just more power. The lathe I used was starting to grunt at the 654 rpm range so it most likely wasn't running the full 654 rpm's.

      I did take a short video which can be seen below (link), I havn't used a link on this new board so if it doesn't work, just copy and paste it. I would have taken more video but my camera card was almost full, I didn't know that at the time and had no where to put what I had on the card until I got home. I saved what I had on the card, then cleaned off the card so future videos  can and will be longer if needed.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRIFmG-MUG8&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

     Janne, oztules, SparWeb, anyone, can someone help me work out what max power might be with the numbers I have shown or do I need to do different testing?

           Matt


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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2011, 01:06:06 AM »
didn't post right the first time

tables aren't working for some reason.

30 seconds in excel and you'll see the data isn't right. your load is decreasing from 13.75 to 11.3 ohms.
volt/ rpm is pretty constant. if the resistance of the windings is 2 ohms then its pretty safe to say you're going to burn up the motor before anything else.

can your dmm measure hz? use that to get your rpm reading, not the lathe.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 01:33:07 AM by joestue »
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methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2011, 09:21:14 AM »
       Would the resistance be off because the load is a heating element? I think it would but I would think it would change the other way, higher resistance the hotter it got.

      The winding resistance is 3 ohms, I put a thermocouple into the stator windings and the temps seemed to be ok, this conversion has a huge fan in it and I think that helps plus the stator casing is helping to remove the heat. How do I calculate the power being wasted in the stator as heat? Would I lose less power in the stator if I connected it 2 star, 3 star, 1,2, or 3 delta and changed the load resistance?

       I do have hz on the meter and when I get time I can set it all back up and do some more tests.

               Matt

joestue

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2011, 06:08:05 PM »
for the moment you can assume there's going to be no difference in wye/delta for a resistive load, unless the harmonic content is really that bad.

i've never seen heating elements change more than a few percent from 20-500C, unless i make them out of steel wire and then the resistance drops a lot.
its pretty unusual to see the resistance drop as the temp goes up.
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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2011, 07:03:58 PM »
This may help. Your generator is not more powerful than your lathe, it's just inefficient.

Your lathe has a 7.5 HP motor. 1 HP = 746 watts. Total 7.5HP x 746 = 5595 watts. Lets say 95% motor efficiency & 85% transmission efficiency, the net output at the chuck would be: 5595 x 0.95 x 0.85 = 4518 watts.

Your generator at 177 volts 15.65 amps is making 2770 watts at say 50% efficiency.

You would have to deliver a total input power of 5540 watts at the shaft to reach the electrical power you have made.

These are very rough numbers give or take but enough to get you in the ballpark.

Warrior
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methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2011, 07:22:29 PM »
        I'll do some more testing, as you say, the resistance probably didn't change enough to notice, so there must have been something else throwing the numbers off.

       I think its looking like I may not use this generator though as it may be running near the limit of destruction to get the power I am after. I would rather have a generator being under worked and have it live longer.

      Like I said, I'm not done with this one yet but at the same time lets discuss other options, mainly what it take to achieve high power levels and survive.

      I may either sell this generator or dismantle it for the magnets, probably smarter to sell and buy new magnets rather than waste a perfectly good generator that someone else could use.

      I have 60, 2 X 1 X 1/2 neo's not counting the 24 in the current generator, so I think I have enough magnet to get the power.

      I also have about 30 to 35 pounds of new 16ga. magnet wire, and I think that will be plenty as well.

      With whatever design I use, motor conversion or axial flux, I know I need to pack as much wire in it as possible, 4 or 5 strands in hand per coil or more. Lots of coils and lots of poles, or fewer poles and higher rpm's.

      Is my thinking on track at this point?

     

methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2011, 07:27:28 PM »
Warrior,

         Makes since, and the rest of the power is being used up as heat in the stator.

        The 2770 watts, thats volts X amps, volts being measured across 2 phase lines and amps across 1 line with a clamp meter, so is that the total output or just the output of 2 phases?

joestue

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2011, 07:38:10 PM »
3 ohms in delta means you're at better than 75% efficiency.

did you get that 3 ohms to better than 10% accuracy?
wye at 3 ohms per phase would work out to about 66% assuming your load is actually only 10 ohms, it appears to be at least 11*.

don't take that 7.5 hp rating of the induction motor driving your lathe as set in stone. that's just what its rated to for a 40C temp rise.
they tend to look like this
http://www.ecmweb.com/mag/405ecm08fig2.jpg

*at 177 volts, your lower measurement of 4 amps at 5 volts must be wrong, but the trend is close to linear so its hard to figure out which datapoints aren't accurate.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 07:50:03 PM by joestue »
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methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2011, 07:43:48 PM »
I havn't done any testing or ever have it wired in delta so the 3 ohms I checked is in wye and I checked the load with 3 different meters all coming up with 10.8 ohms.