Author Topic: My Best Garbogen yet. (Read 9158 times)

Jerry · « **on:** October 21, 2011, 09:35:53 PM »

A good freind has a machine shop. He built some real nice aluminum end caps for my latest Garbogen. I've increased blade diameter from 49" to 55".
This unit has the solid steel armature with the old # 29 curved NEOs. The front end cap has a mosture shield to keep water out. Since the end cap is 3/8" thick solid aluminum I've mounted the two 50 amp fullwave bridges there. The composite mount is sandwitched between sheets of aluminum for extra stringth. A large 1.5" bearing searves for yaw duties. A 4ft 1"X1" tail boom. The tail wing has stabilzing straps. The Garbogen was doing 17 amps the other day while at the same instant the WindBlue was making 10 amp. This was around 18 MPH. Check out this picture of the WindBlue stator and the Garbogen stator.

Jerry

Jerry · « **Reply #1 on:** October 21, 2011, 09:41:18 PM »

Corection. The GM stator in the picture is not a WindBlue stator. The WindBlue is the same accept the WindBlue has much smaller wire. The stator is the same though. WindBlue uses the Delco stator.

Jerry

phil b · « **Reply #2 on:** October 21, 2011, 10:13:47 PM »

Lots of difference between stators.
I'm glad to see you posting again Jerry.

Tritium · « **Reply #3 on:** October 21, 2011, 11:53:16 PM »

Very sweet looking and impressive garbogen Jerry. Welcome back.

Thurmond

artv · « **Reply #4 on:** October 22, 2011, 07:09:23 AM »

Hi Jerry,....Gorbogen,.I assume you mean this is out of a garbage compactor?? Are they the stock windings or did you rewire it??
Also do you have a pic of the rotor?? .......thanks.....artv

coldspot · « **Reply #5 on:** October 22, 2011, 08:03:13 AM »

jerry-
"old # 29 curved NEOs."
how many?
how about a picture of the armature?

STYME JONES · « **Reply #6 on:** October 22, 2011, 09:13:04 AM »

nice, do you have more pictures? what size wire did you use, and how many turns? i have a larger wilson alternator i want to rewind. i am getting lots of amps but not enough volts. hope the pic shows up. i put two 4" od by 2" inside by 1/2 inch magnets in it . thanks STYME.

STYME: Fixed to pic posting for ya:)

GoVertical · « **Reply #7 on:** October 22, 2011, 09:52:15 AM »

Hi, very nice. What is PMA case made from, how did he fabricate it?

Jerry · « **Reply #8 on:** October 22, 2011, 10:20:11 PM »

There are a couple newbies here that are not femiliure with the Garbogen. First off this story is not about the Delco GM alternator. Its about the Garbogen. The Garbogen started about 8 to 9 years ago. While web searching I found this site. DanB posted a story about an AC induction motor conversion. I had freinds in the HVAC and plumbing business. They let me do all the motor dumpster diving all I wanted. At one time I had collected somewhere around 1500 motors. Dan also sold a curved NEO magnet at that time that was a good fit for these motor conversions. The motor that worked the best for me is the 1 HP, 120 volt, single phase, 4 pole, 1725 rpm, 10 amp, garbage disposal motor hence the Garbogen. The conversion cosists of removing and discarding the end caps, building new end caps, building a new solid steel armature, epoxying the curved NEOs to the armature, removeing the stator and brakeing the conection between coils 3 and 4 on both the start and run winding (this is for 12 v, no wire changes for 24v or low wind 12v), now perelelling of these halfs for both start and runs, seperate fullwave bridges for both start and runs. That was the quike version I'm sure there will be more questions. Theres another hole story about Delco upgrades and mods. That will be another post another time. Heres a few more pictures.

Jerry

Jerry · « **Reply #9 on:** October 22, 2011, 10:42:39 PM »

Quote from: artv on October 22, 2011, 07:09:23 AM

Hi Jerry,....Gorbogen,.I assume you mean this is out of a garbage compactor?? Are they the stock windings or did you rewire it??
Also do you have a pic of the rotor?? .......thanks.....artv

The windings are 100% but coil reasignment is used. Yes it is a garbage disposal motor. The stock rotor is not used. I've seen 80 amps from this conversion in high storm winds with no furling. All this without burnout. Its a single phase motor but after conversion it becomes a 2 phase PMA. This by taking addvantage of the output of start windings.

Jerry

Jerry · « **Reply #10 on:** October 22, 2011, 10:46:10 PM »

Quote from: coldspot on October 22, 2011, 08:03:13 AM

jerry-
"old # 29 curved NEOs."
how many?
how about a picture of the armature?

Hi coldspot. 4 NEOs cause its a 4 pole motor. Cogging is allmost none existant. The 3/4" shaft is very easy to spin with just thumb and forfinger.

Jerry

Jerry · « **Reply #11 on:** October 22, 2011, 10:55:36 PM »

Quote from: STYME JONES on October 22, 2011, 09:13:04 AM

nice, do you have more pictures? what size wire did you use, and how many turns? i have a larger wilson alternator i want to rewind. i am getting lots of amps but not enough volts. hope the pic shows up. i put two 4" od by 2" inside by 1/2 inch magnets in it . thanks STYME.

You can do some things with that alternator to improve its preformance without rewinding it. What are you using for blades? The Delco stator in the picture is all stock. I pictured it just to show the size diferance between the Garbogen stator and the Delco stator. Both stators in the picture are 100% stock with no changes.

I will post a story in the near future to talk about upgrades for the Delco and how to get way more power then these guys do, WindBlue, Hornet, Misouri Wind, Mallard, ect, ect.

Jerry

Jerry · « **Reply #12 on:** October 22, 2011, 10:59:02 PM »

Quote from: GoVertical on October 22, 2011, 09:52:15 AM

Hi, very nice. What is PMA case made from, how did he fabricate it?

The case on the Garbogen PMA is the stock garbage disposal motor can. Insinkorator builds the case I just use it.

Jerry

Jerry · « **Reply #13 on:** October 22, 2011, 11:03:10 PM »

Quote from: STYME JONES on October 22, 2011, 09:13:04 AM

nice, do you have more pictures? what size wire did you use, and how many turns? i have a larger wilson alternator i want to rewind. i am getting lots of amps but not enough volts. hope the pic shows up. i put two 4" od by 2" inside by 1/2 inch magnets in it . thanks STYME.

Just a couple more questions. Is the Wilson a 12 volt? How is the cogging? Its a good looking and large alternator.

Jerry

Jerry · « **Reply #14 on:** October 22, 2011, 11:08:36 PM »

Quote from: Jerry on October 22, 2011, 10:20:11 PM

There are a couple newbies here that are not femiliure with the Garbogen. First off this story is not about the Delco GM alternator. Its about the Garbogen. The Garbogen started about 8 to 9 years ago. While web searching I found this site. DanB posted a story about an AC induction motor conversion. I had freinds in the HVAC and plumbing business. They let me do all the motor dumpster diving all I wanted. At one time I had collected somewhere around 1500 motors. Dan also sold a curved NEO magnet at that time that was a good fit for these motor conversions. The motor that worked the best for me is the 1 HP, 120 volt, single phase, 4 pole, 1725 rpm, 10 amp, garbage disposal motor hence the Garbogen. The conversion cosists of removing and discarding the end caps, building new end caps, building a new solid steel armature, epoxying the curved NEOs to the armature, removeing the stator and brakeing the conection between coils 3 and 4 on both the start and run winding (this is for 12 v, no wire changes for 24v or low wind 12v), now perelelling of these halfs for both start and runs, seperate fullwave bridges for both start and runs. That was the quike version I'm sure there will be more questions. Theres another hole story about Delco upgrades and mods. That will be another post another time. Heres a few more pictures. (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Jerry

The bolts and the end plates on the armature are none ferus. Bolts are stainless steel and the end plates are aluminum. No cogging from these parts. The shaft and the armature are steel.
Jerry

STYME JONES · « **Reply #15 on:** October 23, 2011, 07:50:49 AM »

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=c4a0e03e5d6f64d4&page=play&resid=C4A0E03E5D6F64D4!2795

nice, do you have more pictures? what size wire did you use, and how many turns? i have a larger wilson alternator i want to rewind. i am getting lots of amps but not enough volts. hope the pic shows up. i put two 4" od by 2" inside by 1/2 inch magnets in it . thanks STYME.

Just a couple more questions. Is the Wilson a 12 volt? How is the cogging? Its a good looking and large alternator.

Jerry
thanks Jerry, yes there is some cogging on the larger alternator. i put ring magnets in both of them. the larger wilson i had to take the shaft to a machine shop to get turned down a little to get the 2 ' diameter center to fit. and i cracked one putting it on. will that matter?? i think there both 24 volt too. hope you can access these pictures. thanks STYME

RP · « **Reply #16 on:** October 23, 2011, 10:15:05 AM »

Working link:

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=c4a0e03e5d6f64d4&page=play&resid=C4A0E03E5D6F64D4!2795

STYME JONES · « **Reply #17 on:** October 23, 2011, 10:34:00 AM »

thank you RP. i must be an idiot. STYME

Jerry · « **Reply #18 on:** October 24, 2011, 12:00:22 PM »

STYME.
I don't think the crack will hurt. If you can keep the magnet together in its original size and shape and get it glued securly enough.
To make this alternator work with its stock coils and wire here is what I would do. First seperate the 3 phases at the star point conection. Now conect 6 wires. 1 to each of the ends of the coils. bring those out side the case. You now have the start and stop conection of each phase (6 wires). Conect a fullwave bridge rectifier to each phase. Connect a large value electrolytic capacitor to the DC conection on each bridge. You now have what I've refured to, 3 seperate DC power supplies. Now wire these 3 seperate DC power supplies in sires. The amperage will remain the same and the voltage will be more then triple what your getting now. The rpm requiered to reach 12 volts will be 1/3rd to 1/4th of what it was befor these mods. I use 650,000 UF- 6.3 volt caps. These are very large and hard to find. Just get as many UF as you can find. Any cap voltage of 6v or higher is fine if the alt is to be used in 12v operation. Keep the cap values the same per phase. Caps can be stacked/perelelled to get higher value UF. The factory coil wire gage is very big. The Delco car alternator wind generator manufactures simply rewind the alts with hundreds of turns of small ga. wire and still use star conection. For iron based alt I have proved my aproach has a 10% to 20% increase in power over star with a huge rpm reduction. The Wilson looks like it has 4 to 6 turns percoil of very large wire. Take addvantage of the big wire amperage potential. Then dump the losses of star. Take addvantage of the 3 siresed dc system and what the caps bring to the table and you'll have a far supirior alt. I have a schimatic in my way old post on this somewhere? You'll need 6 wires down the tower but thats easy with the 14-6 trailer cable unless you need more amperage.
Jerry

artv · « **Reply #19 on:** October 24, 2011, 06:18:49 PM »

Hi Guys,....Nethier one of those links worked for me

Jerry you say "Delco winds with hundreds of turns of small wire".....wouldn't that just increase the resistance ,thereby making the amount of amps out next to nothing??.....
Isn't the high voltage pretty much useless unless you can get the amps to go with it??
still trying to figure this stuff out........artv

Jerry · « **Reply #20 on:** October 24, 2011, 11:04:46 PM »

Quote from: artv on October 24, 2011, 06:18:49 PM

Hi Guys,....Nethier one of those links worked for me
Jerry you say "Delco winds with hundreds of turns of small wire".....wouldn't that just increase the resistance ,thereby making the amount of amps out next to nothing??.....
Isn't the high voltage pretty much useless unless you can get the amps to go with it??
still trying to figure this stuff out........artv

No, Delco does not wind there alternators with 100s of turns of small wire. I wrote "The Delco alternator wind generator manufactures wind there stators with many turns of small wire. Not Delco. Delco winds there alternators with a few turns of heavy wire. The problem with the stock Delco is it needs 1000 RPM for cutin RPM. So the wind generator manufactures that use the Delco in there machines have to make them produce cutin at 150 RPM. This is done by rewinding the alternators with 100 of turns with very small wire. So yes there amperage output is very low. I solve these problems by the following methode.

You are correct about the high resistance. This also causes blade stall. Thats why I seperate the 3 phases, use seperate fullwave bridge rectifiers per phase and then perelell the DC output of the bridges. This basicly cuts the alternater resistance in half and elininates the 15% lose of 3 phase

star conection. It also alows the use of a higher TSR / RPM blade. This all makes for a much better match to the blades and much lower resistance.
Jerry

artv · « **Reply #21 on:** October 29, 2011, 03:14:11 PM »

Hi Jerry,... so after the caps do you just hook them to the batteries?? .....and why if your charging 12V ,you only use 6.3V caps??
Also the more UF the better??.....Do the more micro-farads allow more amp storage??
I'm doing some tests right now with these caps

not the one on the left ....but I have two paralelled of the one on the right...since there 12000uf each paralelled = 24000uf......
Do you have some kind of circut that lets the caps reach above battery voltage before they discharge into battery ,or are they just connected directly??.......thanks for your time.......artv

Jerry · « **Reply #22 on:** October 29, 2011, 10:34:01 PM »

Hi artv.

I've just been searching my old posts. Looking for a schimatic I posted years ago. It shows how all the parts are wired. I'll take a picture of the unit tommorow and post it. The caps I'm using are 600,000 UF at 6.3 volts. 6 volts is fine because the power supplies you make out of each phase never go over 5 volts. Then these three 5 volt power suplies are wired in sires. This then creats a 15 volt alt/ power supply. However its not likley it will ever make 15 volts. The load your battery bank won't allow that. Unless you have a very weak or small battery and lots of wind. You need the high UF to store the amperage. Wallmart use to sell a car type stiffning cap in the car stereo section. I think it was a 1 Farrad for $40? 3 of those would be great. Just charge the caps through a 12v test light. When the lite dims out the cap is charged. Not sure how well the small value caps you have will work? Easy enough to try them though. I'm going to swap out my home built rotor on the GM alt for the old style steel shafted Wind Blue I have left over. Mine works but requiers the 7 blade to get it spining. Problem with that is low rpm.

Jerry

Jerry · « **Reply #23 on:** October 31, 2011, 09:04:09 PM »

OK artv.
I took some pictures today and wrote a schimatic by hand so its a littel rugh. Tommorow I'm going to try some 39,000 UF caps instead of the 650,000 UF caps. I'm building an alternator for this test. I'll be making this test with a drive motor on the bench. I'll be recording both input power requiered for both cap values as well as ouput diferances.

I hope this helps.

Jerry

ghurd · « **Reply #24 on:** October 31, 2011, 11:17:16 PM »

Hey Jerry,

I took a pic today too.
The pic I took is from the other side, and looks a lot newer... Because I took it from your old pics.

(really should try to name them so you /me /we know what they are)

Here are your old pics,
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/90/

And the pic I took, as in stole it from you...

artv · « **Reply #25 on:** November 01, 2011, 05:20:32 AM »

Thanks Jerry,....I have seen the schematic before and it works quite well .....When I was trying it ,I tried many different connections, series, paralell, back to back......The best that I came up with so far was to hook the negative of the cap like you have , but put the positive of the cap back into one of the phase connections on the bridge , and just use the positive DC output off the bridge like normal. Every body here say's this doesn't work ,but I've tried it many times and it always gives a better output?? The only thing is I just use diodes for my bridge.........maybe thats the reason???
Those caps you've got ,any Idea where I might salvage some? I've got a bunch of big caps out of micr-wave ,but they say 2000 volts, 1uf ,what good is that??

Jerry · « **Reply #26 on:** November 01, 2011, 11:56:26 AM »

artv.
I will be testing the 39,000 UF caps soon. If they work as good as the 650,000 UF caps I will offer them for sale cheap. I have about 50 of the 39K UF caps with mounting clamps. I hope to do this test in a few days. I use the 2,000v 1UF microwave oven caps in old tube type osciliscopes as replacements. They are also a good caps for tweeter crossovers.

In the picture the black heat sink is an old car stereo amp gutted. This sires ciurcut is primarily for factory wound vihickle alternator stator use. For fine wire high turns count that WindBlue and the like use a diferant none cap configuration is better. If needed I can discus that option.

Jerry

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Author Topic: My Best Garbogen yet. (Read 9158 times)