Author Topic: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.  (Read 238986 times)

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fabricator

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #891 on: July 02, 2012, 07:35:01 PM »
Remember the 4th is on wendnesday, that'll definatetly screw up shipping.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

lakesidepark

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #892 on: July 02, 2012, 09:16:03 PM »
yep, but he's in a three-day ground zone from me, checked the estimated ship. And the 4th is a lighter-than-usual shippng holiday - it will probably be staged by tomorrow night.

tomorrow, finally, this thread will get one item that has been missing for months...a tracking number for a generator!

The testing today gave me some ideas for my own project almost ready for wind. I built a sav and a tower, with two pairs of BMX sprockets for a 1:1.7 ratio as a chain-drive gearbox. It will push the 850 but gets it barely into cut-in.
I have several of the smaller motors, and a few gearbox cogs. I had the idea of replacing one genny with a bearing bracket and large gear on shaft end, driving two of the 750 with small gear. And maybe coupling a 450 / 3000 same style motor on the back shaft of each 750, then using a scheme to bring gennies online based on RPM and loading. The 750 / 3000 needs more RPM but it also has more loading headroom / smoother power slope. Or I could just break down and buy the BMX sprockets that will change the existing drivetrain ratio.....

...now I'm hijacking...my part in this thread is over after I tear the shipper label off the box and leave the counter tomorrow.
I learned a little bit doing the tests for the servo motors (for one, feeling the results of 'current limiting', seeing the useable power band based on a load), and that will get some elaboration when I get ready to post my sav tower thread.

Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #893 on: July 02, 2012, 10:03:35 PM »
wait!!!!!   Im going to need one of those plugs in the picture that end in 3 wires for a 3 phase!
By Hook or by Crook - Prayer, Persistence and Tenacity will win the day!

Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #894 on: July 02, 2012, 10:05:48 PM »
BTW: you did a Fantastic unbelievable job testing and graphing out the results!

BRAVO!

WELL DONE!

HEAR HEAR!
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lakesidepark

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #895 on: July 03, 2012, 07:55:33 AM »
amphenol connector will be in the box with the motor  ;)

Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #896 on: July 03, 2012, 08:26:21 AM »
Thank you for your incredible generosity! 
you single handedly resurected the LBird Project!!!
Thankyou! Thankyou! Thankyou!

Now, get your paypal up and running,
so I can Fasto-speed-adle your shipping costs to you!  ;)

I must confess:
The sheer amount of research you did and graphing out of all that data is kinda intimidating! ;D
How am I gonna match THAT???
WOW!
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Frank S

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #897 on: July 03, 2012, 09:57:29 AM »
just when I thought there was no hope for this thread
somebody actually shows a bench test albeit not scientific who cares, out put is out put whether it is done with a $30,000.00 test lab or on a work bench with a $50.00 VSR drill motor and a fluke meter
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lakesidepark

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #898 on: July 03, 2012, 01:08:23 PM »
Thats one up on the redelco.
Thanks Frank. That simple test information tells me a lot about the motors, at least I won't be guessing when I get one spinning myself. However, I don't have a clue what size of loads I should be using to get closer to real-use. What kind of load does a battery bank place on a generator when it needs trickle-charge, and when it needs heavy charge (ex. 80% DOD). I didn't carry the 5ohm test past the small 750 because the size of my load resistors were small - I was smoking the epoxy on the glued resistor set with the large 850 when I ramped it up!

The second one-up on the redelco:
SF has a tracking number in his inbox!!! Delivery scheduled for Friday. And even a picture of the box contents below.



The box contents:
The 450W 1500RPM motor that was decided.
The 750W 3000RPM motor that was also tested.
Connector for the 450.
Extension / connector for the 750 (it has a Molex on it, I added the Molex extender with the Amphenol)
Receptacle (square flange with weather seal and screws) for the Amphenol - he can fit that to the axial and then use the Amphenol on the 12ga drop cord (if SF has a junction box on top). Makes it easier to swap out.

Or you can use the Amphenol male plug on the extension cable as a 'pigtail' on the axial. Or use it at the bottom of the pole as quick-disconnect when untwisting time comes.

If those Falcons cannot make enough torque to generate at 240RPM, and they need 400-500RPM to make any power, the 750 is a viable option to get some watts out of those blades. If it can make power at 240, then the 450 should work, and SF can make yard art out of the 750, and use it to power some garden lights. Or pass it on if he wishes.

Me. generous?? - more an exercize in fighting greed! I kept looking and making up ideas to use every motor, knowing I'll scrap another dozen in a year....I got more ideas than I have time.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 01:26:11 PM by lakesidepark »

Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #899 on: July 03, 2012, 01:25:30 PM »
is one of those the 16.8 pound one?
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lakesidepark

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #900 on: July 03, 2012, 01:31:13 PM »
the large-frame 450 / 1500 is 12.1 lb. The smaller frame 750 / 3000 is 7.5 lb.
The 16.8 lb. was the 850 / 1500 motor.

Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #901 on: July 03, 2012, 02:02:18 PM »
the large-frame 450 / 1500 is 12.1 lb. The smaller frame 750 / 3000 is 7.5 lb.
The 16.8 lb. was the 850 / 1500 motor.
I was just LIKE-ING the numbers comming out of that 16.8 lb.  850 / 1500 motor.  ;D

Was that one the one you referred too, that had a higher resistance and that probably wouldn't allow the blades to spin up until higher winds, but produced more power at speed?

If thats the case:

Remember...
I also have some longer fiberglass blades
that might just make that 16.8 pound servo "Do Its Thang".
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 02:47:11 PM by Steadfast »
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lakesidepark

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #902 on: July 03, 2012, 02:49:57 PM »
Yes, my fear is that the 850 would stall before reaching a good speed, it has more load resistance (turning the rotor) and it electrically loaded up at a slower RPM than the 450.
 
If anything, my own greed reversed with the testing, as now I see the 850 needing large props and gearing to get that extra wattage, and the 450 being much more suited to produce in moderate wind with small prop and no gearing. It's MUCH easier to get to that magic 240RPM with the smaller motor. In fact, if that prop has a LOT of speed, and little torque, the 750 may work better in the moderate winds, so that's why I threw that one in the box too.

After looking at the power outputs, it was obvious that the 850 wouldn't be putting out twice the 450 until very high prop speeds with double the load. And double the load may exceed what the prop can push, so in reality the 850 may be sitting idle in the breeze while the 450 trickles some watts into the battery.

My thinking - is that the 450 will make more USEABLE power than the 850, on the size of prop you already have, simply because it will not stall as quick and will spin up faster. The 850 will OUTRUN the 450 in gale-force winds with a heavy load, but that's not exactly a 'light weight' turbine is it? You won't get any more power out of the 850 without larger blades, and probably gearing to match the same rotational speed as the 450 on a smaller faster prop.

Anyone that has DONE this can chime in any time and let me know if this sounds correct. I'm not leading SF down the wrong path am I?
Remember I have YET to fly a turbine, so I am spouting only what I have learned from reading.

Now if I am wrong, and the props you have spin it out of control (yes those babies do really CRANK), then we can look at the 850 again later. But the hope is that the 450 will put a tricle-charge into your shed batteries whenever you have a good breeze, since these usually come with clouds that put the damper on the solar cell. And in a gale, you can approach 100W, and maybe a good 50W on a moderately windy day (front passage).

You will need a 3/4" (19.05mm) arbor to fit the blade hub to the 19mm shaft of the 450 motor. I found 5/8 and 1/2" arbors at Windy Nation, haven't found a 3/4" arbor yet.





lakesidepark

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #903 on: July 03, 2012, 02:54:06 PM »
I forgot about the fiberglass blade set! But...will they spin up fast enough to get either of these motors into their 'happy range'??

Well, lets see what the 450 does with the bent aluminum and the fiberglass. Whatever you do to fit the 450 will work for the 850, same mounts and same shaft size.

So, if we see results, AND they point to having more prop power than I am guessing now, we can talk. Did my work, your turn!!!

Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #904 on: July 03, 2012, 02:57:24 PM »
That makes sense to me...

as for the  3/4" (19.05mm) arbor, perhaps I can invent/fiquire something out....
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Frank S

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #905 on: July 03, 2012, 04:44:29 PM »
I can already see a tower stretching in the future.
 
 Maybe we need to design you a 70 ft telescopic one raise it like a 40 then scope it up but that will be after we see some numbers I think.
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

liquidsign

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #906 on: July 03, 2012, 07:38:49 PM »
i just read through 35 pages and you havent even picked out a motor yet?????

birdhouse

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #907 on: July 03, 2012, 08:35:01 PM »
Quote
i just read through 35 pages and you havent even picked out a motor yet??

actually, he has picked out two motors.  the first was a no show, and the second is in transit. 

are you sure you read all 35 pages??   :o

adam

liquidsign

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #908 on: July 03, 2012, 09:13:47 PM »
yes im sure, its time i will never get back, the free ones in transit arent the ones he wanted, he wanted the 16.8 lb one





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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #909 on: July 03, 2012, 09:25:07 PM »
and your point?

birdhouse

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #910 on: July 03, 2012, 09:42:58 PM »
Quote
yes im sure, its time i will never get back, the free ones in transit arent the ones he wanted, he wanted the 16.8 lb one

liquid-  beggars can't be choosers.  there's also the issue of matching the prop to the PMA.  not just any blade set will work well with any alternator.  if you're getting into wind, below is one of the best three page threads on this site discussing load matching. 

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,127288.0.html

adam

lakesidepark

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #911 on: July 03, 2012, 10:26:33 PM »
'if I could put time in a bottle' keeps ringing in my ears.
So does a little bitty violin.

We're all greedy. Its one of those sin things on that list somewhere.
I don't have a reference yet for flying these things. I'm going to try to use chain drive reduction on a VAWT to push one of these things, and I liked that 450. the 850 may load mine up too. I won't scoff if I see one in the junk pile, poor dead robot, let me rip off that 450 arm....muuahahaha

But we didn't flip a coin on which motor, we tried to match it to what he has and to the original intention of one that would trickle charge and pick up quickly with gusts in a class 1 wind area.

I will note my upper numbers on the testing 'may' be low. I thought about it, and I didn't have a load to handle the watts I was trying to measure beyond 50W. And the smoking epoxy 'may' indicate unmeasured reduction in resistance and unmeasured watts. The thermal loading of the test apparatus may have introduced a variable into the equations for the higher voltage sampling. larger than the assumed 10%.
Per my unscientific analysis.

Did I say the coil-wound resistor could burn my finger?

So upper results may be higher than they appear on my piece of paper.

Thats a good thing.

fabricator

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #912 on: July 04, 2012, 10:13:48 AM »
His point would be that somebody who has no idea what he wants picked a motor based on virtually zero real reason at all, the sender picked the motors he picked based on actual numbers taken from the motors, I swear it's time to unsub from this dog, I thought the newb might actually learn something, but it sure as hell aint lookin that way.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

DamonHD

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #913 on: July 04, 2012, 11:27:22 AM »
Please keep things civil.

Rgds

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JW

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #914 on: July 04, 2012, 04:44:32 PM »
Quote from: Fabricator
His point would be that somebody who has no idea what he wants picked a motor based on virtually zero real reason at all,

Thats exactly why I made the remark. We have ALL had a hard time with this thread, and when someone (a newbie in this case) comes along and basically supports AGAINST the lessions learned, its hard to move forward with this thread. Its not right... Who is to say the servo motor is not Better for the application. I thought you were smarter than that Fab, also you are one of the ones pointing out whats wrong with SF's decisions.

If this thread does an about face it will be locked..

JW

Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #915 on: July 05, 2012, 05:54:14 AM »
Meanwhile... the HBird is up and flying!
Go check out the other thread...
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thingamajigger

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #916 on: July 05, 2012, 10:23:20 AM »
@JW
Quote
Thats exactly why I made the remark. We have ALL had a hard time with this thread, and when someone (a newbie in this case) comes along and basically supports AGAINST the lessions learned, its hard to move forward with this thread. Its not right... Who is to say the servo motor is not Better for the application.


A Newbie who does not always agree with those with vastly more experience is not always a bad thing. For instance I know more than a few multi-millionares who never finished high school and their success was not due to their expertise or training because they had none, it was due to the fact that they had a fresh perspective on an old problem. I also know many engineers and professional people who have never improved anything and seem to be running in circles doing the same thing as everyone else over and over. I have found there is one constant, the old dogs are always telling the newbies this or that cannot be done and is impossible and the newbies keep proving them wrong, this is called evolution.

On the issue of servo motors, I have found damn near any motor/gen can work well if the speed of the rotor is matched to the generator. This can be a high speed servo or induction motor however a step-up drive is needed which also increases the cut-in. This can be fixed by using a micro switch to measure wind speed and activate a 555 timer which motors the generator for a predetermined time to bypass the start up torque due to friction. Then the output voltage from the generator is compared to a reference using an opamp and if a given threshhold is exceeded then the micro switch/555 timer interlock is opened bypassing the starter circuit. It's simple and it works, lowering the cut-in can add up to a great deal of energy produced over a long period of time and energy matters.

Regards
Thing

Mastiffman

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #917 on: July 05, 2012, 11:40:39 AM »
@JW
Quote
Thats exactly why I made the remark. We have ALL had a hard time with this thread, and when someone (a newbie in this case) comes along and basically supports AGAINST the lessions learned, its hard to move forward with this thread. Its not right... Who is to say the servo motor is not Better for the application.


A Newbie who does not always agree with those with vastly more experience is not always a bad thing. For instance I know more than a few multi-millionares who never finished high school and their success was not due to their expertise or training because they had none, it was due to the fact that they had a fresh perspective on an old problem. I also know many engineers and professional people who have never improved anything and seem to be running in circles doing the same thing as everyone else over and over. I have found there is one constant, the old dogs are always telling the newbies this or that cannot be done and is impossible and the newbies keep proving them wrong, this is called evolution.


Regards
Thing

 Although a good response. This is Far from Evolution, which is a whole other topic that could be discussed... You are referring to Stubbornness, Arrogance and lack of wanting to learn and push the envelop of what is thought to be known. This is what science does.  Although Not always right. But accpeted as right even if it's not.

 I think that it's always a good idea for one of any age to want to learn and continue to see possibilities of the unknown. Imagination is a good thing to use in these cases.

thingamajigger

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #918 on: July 05, 2012, 11:49:57 AM »
@Mastiffman
Quote
I think that it's always a good idea for one of any age to want to learn and continue to see possibilities of the unknown.

I agree 100%
I should also clarify my post a bit, I am no newbie and would definately fall under the old fart who is set in his ways catagory. I guess the trick is knowing this and making an effort to accept new ideas which is a lot harder than it sounds.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 11:58:14 AM by thingamajigger »

Mastiffman

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #919 on: July 05, 2012, 12:22:05 PM »
@Mastiffman
Quote
I think that it's always a good idea for one of any age to want to learn and continue to see possibilities of the unknown.

I agree 100%
I should also clarify my post a bit, I am no newbie and would definately fall under the old fart who is set in his ways catagory. I guess the trick is knowing this and making an effort to accept new ideas which is a lot harder than it sounds.

 Amen to that Brother! Opening ones mind to possibilities leads Only to Knowledge.

DamonHD

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #920 on: July 05, 2012, 01:21:26 PM »
May we all hope to keep our minds open at least a little...

Rgds

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Badger

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #921 on: July 06, 2012, 08:22:02 PM »
@ lakeside,
Great job on the data collection! As another newb, it's great to see some actual numbers here. I noticed the max current listed is well above the rated current for the motors. Was that max current reached during testing? I'm wondering what would happen tied to a lower voltage bank that would keep the voltage low.  If the current rises with the rpm, how much can you push the current past the rated amps? 

lakesidepark

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #922 on: July 06, 2012, 10:59:29 PM »
actually the max current is part of the spec section, at the max RPM. The motors give both rated and max specs.

All off my testing was rectified, I only calculated watts across a load.

On another note, I re-tested the older 850 motor with all coils series / star, and the voltage numbers looked REALLY good for low RPM use, hitting open-coil 13V around 60RPM. Series / IRP was even better. So that's the motor I re-mounted on my VAWT tower. It's going outside for assembly and testing tomorrow. And pics, I will start a thread on it.

Meanwhile my guess is that SF is gonna let the Hbird spin awhile before we see this bird fly. That Hbird shore looked purty on that tower.

spottrouble

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #923 on: July 07, 2012, 02:30:27 AM »
Lakeside
Any chance we can get more info on separating the windings to go Star or IRP? I noticed a connection or two when I had my Fanuc motor open (wired Delta) and was wondering if separating the windings was possible, it would require cutting some lacing and soldering on some leads. Cutting the lacing would be easy, not sure if I could re-secure the lacing though, soldering new leads would be easy out on a bench, trying to work inside the motor seems tricky and I'm afraid I'd dribble hot solder everywhere and screw it up :-[

Kristi