Author Topic: Lots Of Nothing  (Read 32564 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Frank S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1622
  • Country: us
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2012, 11:02:18 AM »
Get your neighbors together and build your own systems and grid tie them together in one area say 6 people. Or as it has been proposed by my neighbors since we are off grid totally,  together build your own neighborhood system for all to use. Combining it to one grid tired location this leaves the power company only one area to connect to there the system. Ours would be a water and solar combonation. 10 families and $168,000.00 is proposed where I will be. There is already a diversion dam and concrete water way where the generator will be located. It was used as a power source for a small saw mill 50+ years ago.  Just an idea to play with or toss.

if they are seriously considering doing something like this then it would be  the perfect time to engineer a system that uses recoverable water as an energy storage. Hydro is only viable where there is a constant amount of water flowing. Wind power only works when the wind blows. And you guessed it solar is only good when the sun shines.
  Storage and reserve energy on tap when needed is the most difficult of all.
  This would be perfect for a reserve dam lake below the Hydro station with pumps and piping to return the water to the higher elevation.
 Obviously Hydro is the best on demand source but the least renewable. So during peak times when there is not enough wind of solar to cover the usage water runs down hill. but wind blows @ night as well as day solar produces through out the sun hours whether you need it or not. So excess energy could power pumps to refill the  water storage , also pumps would serve to stabilize the wind & solar output.
 T.N.S.T.A.A.F.L but recovering the excess power produced by pumping water back up to the lake is a pretty good alternative. AND an Emergency backup Natural gas powered generator would not be bad either
  A 20 to 30 family community would be more ideal for a CO-OP though.   
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: us
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2012, 11:23:49 AM »
  This would be perfect for a reserve dam lake below the Hydro station with pumps and piping to return the water to the higher elevation.

Ah, pretty much basic hydraulics - it takes as much, or more, power to return that water to the higher elevation as you can extract from it flowing from the higher elevation to the lower.

This means that unless you can come up with some sort of over-unity setup the hydro part never contributes any power to the community, since any power it ever generates is eaten up by pumping water back to the reservoir.  The sun does does that by itself, evaporating water and redepositing it at higher elevation, with no pumps or pipes.  It's been going on for 4.5 billion years and is about as renewable as it gets.
--
Chris
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 11:40:23 AM by ChrisOlson »

fabricator

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3407
  • Country: us
  • My smoke got out again
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2012, 05:38:16 PM »
In Ludington MI Consumers Energy has a pump storage facility, they pump a huge resiviour full when electrical demand is low then during the day when it's high they let it out through about six big turbines.
There is a visitors center where you can read all about the construction and operation of the facitlity, you can read right there that it takes more electricity to pump the pond full then they get back, but at night when demand is low the power is cheaper, so they actually make money even though.
At present there is no possible way to make that a closed loop, that is over unity, or a perpetual motion machine and there is no such thing, and IF there were if you took energy out of the system it would be like a kill switch.
In the future, who knows? If they could actually make more energy from fusion than they put in our energy problems would be over, or if somebody invents a zero point module, someday if this rock stay out of the way of other rocks and we don't poison it and ourselves out of existence it'll happen
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

Valalvax

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2012, 03:32:44 PM »
In Ludington MI Consumers Energy has a pump storage facility, they pump a huge resiviour full when electrical demand is low then during the day when it's high they let it out through about six big turbines.

Georgia Power does the same thing with Carter's Lake, I believe

Sorry, wrong lake

http://www.georgiapower.com/lakes/oconee_history.asp

thingamajigger

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: ca
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2012, 03:58:41 PM »
@Fab
Quote
In Ludington MI Consumers Energy has a pump storage facility, they pump a huge resiviour full when electrical demand is low then during the day when it's high they let it out through about six big turbines.
That's kind of bizarre when I think about it but from an energy standpoint it makes perfect sense and is really no different than a big battery. The problem would be explaining it to everyone else, for instance if a person asked what my job was and I told them --- I pump water uphill at night and let it fall during the day, lol. Or the fact a person could make a great deal of money pumping water uphill at night and letting it fall during the day, it just seems to have a ring of whackiness or futility about it even though it makes perfect sense.

Regards
Thing

dgd

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Country: nz
  • Never do today what can be done tomorrow
    • Lory Link
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2012, 08:01:18 PM »
I purchased 4-500W PMA from Missourri Wind and Solar.  They were a year old when I purchased them, but being PMA's using alternator bearings, I would say that I still had 100,000's of hours left on the bearings.

So someone else had maybe tried them and didn't see 2Kw so moved them on.. :-\
The MW&S current 1600watt PMA with 60inch  blades make about 150-250 watts in a decent blow 30-35km wind, and seem to max  350 watts in 50km wind (24volt version). With 2.4metre dia blades I got to 411 watts  :)
BUT is it not a case of you get what you pay for?  for $500 its a fraction of the cost of a real 1.5kW turbine.
The real problem here is the apparently false advertising claiming 1600watts when the real output is about 350watts.
In some countries there is trade description laws that would have seen govt legal action to prevent the 1600watts in the product description and hence a 1600watt output expectation by customers...
Although I have wondered if the pma would make 1600 watts in a 100km wind but I would want to be well away from
the kill zone  :P

dgd
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 08:11:51 PM by dgd »
Off grid since 4/2000
Midnite C150,C250,Clipper, 2.8Kw PV, 2Kw turbine,1025Ah24v FLA (1999), SW3024E (1997), 3q16 48v300Ah LiFeYPO4 6Kw OzInverter, Arduino DUE web monitor.

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: us
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2012, 09:32:37 PM »
In some countries there is trade description laws that would have seen govt legal action to prevent the 1600watts in the product description and hence a 1600watt output expectation by customers...

Actually though, 1600 watts on a 24 volt system running at 30 volts is only 53 amps.  If you take the blades off that thing and put a pulley on it, then install it on your car engine I would guess it could probably develop 53 amps @ 30 volts.
--
Chris

fabricator

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3407
  • Country: us
  • My smoke got out again
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2012, 07:36:38 AM »
They just forgot to put that in the instructions. LOL
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

dgd

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Country: nz
  • Never do today what can be done tomorrow
    • Lory Link
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2012, 01:42:51 AM »
 I hooked a Missouri Wind & Solar 'General' to a Midnite Classic 150. This is a 14magnet 1600 watt alternator with an eleven blade hub with MW&S gen 4 Raptor blades of 62inch diameter. The alternator was fairly free running and the slightest breeze would start it rotating.
The General was a 24v model and battery bank is 24v, the wind curve in the Classic was a best guess.
Over a 2 week period of zero to medium winds I got 7.4Kw/hrs with  best day of 1.1Kw/hrs
So not a lot but not nothing either. Still sort of ok  for a $451 turbine ::)
dgd

http://youtu.be/n7V2cItXtbw
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 02:48:26 AM by dgd »
Off grid since 4/2000
Midnite C150,C250,Clipper, 2.8Kw PV, 2Kw turbine,1025Ah24v FLA (1999), SW3024E (1997), 3q16 48v300Ah LiFeYPO4 6Kw OzInverter, Arduino DUE web monitor.

Bruce S

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4521
  • Country: us
  • USA
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2012, 11:09:43 AM »
I hooked a Missouri Wind & Solar 'General' to a Midnite Classic 150. This is a 14magnet 1600 watt alternator with an eleven blade hub with MW&S gen 4 Raptor blades of 62inch diameter. The alternator was fairly free running and the slightest breeze would start it rotating.
The General was a 24v model and battery bank is 24v, the wind curve in the Classic was a best guess.
Over a 2 week period of zero to medium winds I got 7.4Kw/hrs with  best day of 1.1Kw/hrs
So not a lot but not nothing either. Still sort of ok  for a $451 turbine ::)
dgd

http://youtu.be/n7V2cItXtbw
Hey good to see someone is getting something from these units! I am curious though and being in the very state they are named after. Would it be possible for you to post a picture or two? plus any info on your setup you'd like to add.:-)
Cheers;
Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

dgd

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Country: nz
  • Never do today what can be done tomorrow
    • Lory Link
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2012, 08:11:18 PM »
Hey good to see someone is getting something from these units! I am curious though and being in the very state they are named after. Would it be possible for you to post a picture or two? plus any info on your setup you'd like to add.:-)
Cheers;
Bruce S

Missouri General atop 10metre pole clear to wind from West and North... solar panels facing north, also those just visible behind trees have clear view of almost overhead sun.



nice and clean looking - all those blades  :)



Midnite Classic 150 and relay/dump load resistors for General. I got this 150 for the hy1000 but it smelt like burnt toast when I took it down, I think it may have been zapped in a winter electrical storm. A neighbour told me that
it looked like sparks shooting out of it one stormy night. Its off to be repaired but is probably a write off...  so I wanted something low cost to play with until my 10 footer flies  :D

The resistors are 300w types, one connected to each AC phase from turbine and then to Crydom 3 phase relay that shorts phases via resistors. AUX2 WasteNot from Classic controls the relay.
The general hardly produces enough Amps to need this type of clipper. When the solar via another 150 fills the
bank then this 150 enables the relay. I have seen it work nice and the general warms the resistors.
But its all really in prepation for the 10 footer flying.
I have also replaced the direct link from AUX2 to the Crydom with a logic board that uses the AUX2 Clipper control  with an overvoltage detector circuit using an lm397 comparator. This logic board also detects dead 150 using the presence of the 9v in one of the telco connectors in the 150...  All to prevent a free flying turbine  :)


 
dgd

Off grid since 2000 in Auckland New Zealand, 2.4kw solar, hy1000 turbine, Missouri General turbine, 3 Classics 150/150/250, 1150Ah Century battery 24v, Trace 3024E, SEA 3KW, 600watt water element dump load.
ongoing projects: near complete Otherpower 10foot turbine, change to AC water heating 2Kw, install more panels  :)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 08:57:09 PM by dgd »
Off grid since 4/2000
Midnite C150,C250,Clipper, 2.8Kw PV, 2Kw turbine,1025Ah24v FLA (1999), SW3024E (1997), 3q16 48v300Ah LiFeYPO4 6Kw OzInverter, Arduino DUE web monitor.

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2850
  • Country: ca
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2012, 08:37:51 PM »
palm trees, dam!
i just spent 3 weeks raking .
what's that other tree on the left that's pointing  towards the mill?
some kinda giant cannabis bud?

dgd

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Country: nz
  • Never do today what can be done tomorrow
    • Lory Link
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2012, 05:40:00 PM »
palm trees, dam!
i just spent 3 weeks raking .
what's that other tree on the left that's pointing  towards the mill?
some kinda giant cannabis bud?

 That's what the 11 blades are for, they whip up the air into an inverse cone of highly charged molecules that  attract to that head. It's now a monster.
in a month or so when it's real hot and nobody can sleep I will get this in the wood burner so all the street gets a mystery trip.
Off grid since 4/2000
Midnite C150,C250,Clipper, 2.8Kw PV, 2Kw turbine,1025Ah24v FLA (1999), SW3024E (1997), 3q16 48v300Ah LiFeYPO4 6Kw OzInverter, Arduino DUE web monitor.

kenobrock

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Country: us
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2013, 06:56:02 PM »
Can a wind powered generator and a solar system charge the same battery bank? The solar system will be 5KW and the wind generator will be 2.5KW. The windmill will be a 14' diameter water pumping windmill on a 40' tower, that will have the reciprocal action changed to rotary so a rotating shaft will come down inside the tower to the generator will be down at ground level. The generator will be a rebuilt Jacobs. I have made rotary conversions before on 5 smaller 8 ft diameter water pumping windmills for skimming oil. Using an 18 blade wheel there will be a lot of power in a much lower speed wind.

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2850
  • Country: ca
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2013, 06:41:32 AM »
Can a wind powered generator and a solar system charge the same battery bank?
yup. if the voltage outputs are the same.

Yianie123.

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #42 on: January 01, 2015, 06:52:14 PM »
Thank you for keeping my post up so long.  To bring everyone up to date, I am building an 8ft diameter windturbine.  Going to try PVC blades, made first with. 6inch diameter then try with 8 in dia. Started, but modifying my design already.

hiker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1525
  • BIG DOG
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2015, 10:02:17 PM »
lets have some picts...........
WILD in ALASKA

Yianie123.

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2015, 10:26:46 AM »
Photo wont upload, is there a size restriction?  I am using my IPAD to take the photo and it will not upload.

Yianie123.

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2015, 10:42:25 AM »
I hooked a Missouri Wind & Solar 'General' to a Midnite Classic 150. This is a 14magnet 1600 watt alternator with an eleven blade hub with MW&S gen 4 Raptor blades of 62inch diameter. The alternator was fairly free running and the slightest breeze would start it rotating.
The General was a 24v model and battery bank is 24v, the wind curve in the Classic was a best guess.
Over a 2 week period of zero to medium winds I got 7.4Kw/hrs with  best day of 1.1Kw/hrs
So not a lot but not nothing either. Still sort of ok  for a $451 turbine ::)
dgd

http://youtu.be/n7V2cItXtbw

Is that 1.1kw per hour or a 24 hr period?  If its a day, than the average is 46watts and hour.

DamonHD

  • Administrator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3618
  • Country: gb
    • Earth Notes
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2015, 11:37:51 AM »
Please, no "watts per hour".  Watts are already energy per hour.

Rgds

Damon

Yianie123.

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2015, 11:49:01 AM »
Please, no "watts per hour".  Watts are already energy per hour.

Rgds

Damon
In order to achieve 1.1kw/per hour with that type of generator, you are looking at a 50mph wind. 

Yianie123.

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2015, 12:59:18 PM »
In order to achieve 1.1kw/per hour with that type of generator, you are looking at a 50mph wind.

dnix71

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2250
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2015, 03:59:01 PM »
Over a 2 week period of zero to medium winds I got 7.4Kw-hrs with best day of 1.1Kw-hrs

That fixes it.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2785
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2015, 01:18:39 AM »
I purchased 4-500W PMA from Missourri Wind and Solar.  They were a year old when I purchased them, but being PMA's using alternator bearings, I would say that I still had 100,000's of hours left on the bearings.

Alternator bearings are designed to last in the ballpark of 100,000 miles.  At 50 MPH that's 2,000 hours, but figure maybe 5,000 hours for idling and driving slow time.  A year averages about 8,766 hours.  If you have enough wind to load the bearings and spin the shaft comparably to what it experiences in a car, you'll be lucky to get a year out of the bearings.

Also:  Alternator bearings are designed to be loaded mainly sideways, and a wind turbine gets a lot of force along the shaft.  So don't expect regular alternator bearings to do well.  (Of course part of the conversion they did to the alternator MIGHT have involved swapping in more appropriate bearings.)

madlabs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 675
  • Country: us
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2015, 07:06:53 PM »
Please, no "watts per hour".  Watts are already energy per hour.

Rgds

Damon

Huh? I always understood that watts are an instantaneous measurement of power and that watt hours are energy per hour. What(watt) am I missing here?

Jonathan

oztules

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1477
  • Country: aq
  • Village idiot
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2015, 08:33:58 PM »
Jonathon, you have missed almost  nothing. Watts are an instantaneous measurement of power.

eg if you had one joule of energy, and released it in one millionth of a second, you would have 1MW or 1,000,000watts of power being used for that period of time.

If you released it in one second, you would have one watt of power being used for a second.

It takes 4.2 joules to heat one ml of water  1 degree C so not a lot of energy, but the extreme example above gives us an idea that power is an interesting thing.

Damon was having one of those days I think.

" and that watt hours are energy per hour.".... no....... watt hours are a measurement of energy.. ... and so energy x  time is power.
Watt hours  are power/ time = energy.

So watts= energy/time.........energy x time= watts.... and time = watts/energy....
.....I think..... maybe I'm having one of those days too....

...................oztules
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 08:44:41 PM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

oztules

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1477
  • Country: aq
  • Village idiot
Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2015, 08:51:56 PM »
dammit..... can't edit it

"So watts= energy/time.........energy x time= watts.... and time = watts/energy...." is wrong.... we'll start again...

watts= energy / time
time= energy / watts
energy=watts x time

Think thats it this time.....

..............oztules
Flinders Island Australia