Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer

[Bruce S]

I sure like the reworded one! Speaks volumes!!
2nd thing we did when we move into our house was re-pipe water pipes, even removed old Lead based drain pipes and installed PVC!!
Water pipes were sweat soldered by wifey:-) and inspected by water company to get signed off on.
Its amazing the water pressure you can recoup by doing such things.
BTW: My personal still contains NO metal at all 

[BillBlake]

It doesn't look like some of the Survival Options that the old timer's used
to revamp Edison Nickel-Iron-Batteries
are available with the new Chinese Ni-Fe batteries.

The fact that both Changhong Ni-Fe dealers, BeUtilityFree, Inc. and
Iron Edison Batteries make claims that the Manufacturer in China NEVER makes is
too bad for people putting out up to 40 grand at a pop for their 20% worth of Nickel.

Since you can't separate the new Ni-Fe Battery Plates NOW if you mess them up
that rules out any process that was designed ONLY for the Nickel Matrix material
in the positive elements.

There are also question marks about the new plastic used for the plate separators
that may affect other Edison old timer tricks that get played with less severe
abuse cases where you don't have to separate the Negative and Positive Ni-Fe
Plates to restore the batteries.

I've had a bad feeling about the plastic cases 'Cans' for a long time.
Especially this new semi-clear stuff that John D'Angelo has commented about
handling gently to avoid breakage. The devils.   

John even had some glue-ing suggestions that he ran on me. He he he.

That plastic might wind up being a huge part of the
'New Untold Ni-Fe Story' someday.

Your man 'Chump' AKA 'shay' talked about his Chinese Ni-Fe cells, about how
John D'Angelo beat him, those plastic Ni-Fe cases and other things here in the
Legendary 'OtherPower Forum' back in 2009. He was featured in a Post called:

'Last List of 13 Nickel Iron Battery Questions .. by the 2009 NiFe Man'.   
Google has it.

Then you get into the Nickel Matrix Positive Electrode Material itself which so
far is just everybody's opinion including John D'Angelo of BeUtilityFree who says
he doesn't think this Chinese Nickel material is as good or as expensive as the
original old Edison Nickel material was.
Brandon Williams of Iron Edison is also a big admirer of Edison Ni-Fe cells but he seems to like
to stretch the limits about what the Chinese cells can do a lot to make a sale.

What this new Nickel material can take or not take is an interesting question.
Did they add Cobalt to head off the Iron Poisoning of the Positive Plates?
If so what did this or other additives change as far as the
'Old Magic Nickel Iron Batteries Rejuvenation Tricks' that used to be possible.

The bottom line is NOW more than ever what you dump into those new Ni-Fe cells
(IF you ever go that way) is more important than ever.

Not only is watching the electrolyte chemicals like a hawk a good idea but
watching the water itself as well.
Changhong Ni-Fe Batteries has 'Ni-Fe Water Specifications' as well as
'Ni-Fe Chemical Specifications' which we will get to in another post someday.

You may never need to rejuvenate the Ni-Fe battery elements if you never trash
them to begin with. This has never been honestly looked at properly.
This is all part of the long and tedious job of getting true total cost comparisons
with other battery chemistries to decide if you may want the Ni-Fe Technology -
or you don't want it.
I am starting to feel like a salesman, 'shill or reverse shill'. 
But not for anyone that's greedy, scheming and alive.
It dawned on me lately that someone needs to bring back the old Edison cells.
We already had 'the hot set-up' that never was fully explored.

That not having to go to 100% SOC (Finish Charge) is a huge, huge factor.
For Another Thread someday.
It's all leading to a new, simple, cost effective battery hybrid system
and a new charging technique that uses more than one battery chemistry.

Can we can make due with the Changhong Ni-Fe cells if that's the only choice?
My guess is with daily cycling those cells will need electrolyte replacement every 2 years
(or so) if you want to Really Long Stroke them. We'll see.

Bill Blake

[BillBlake]

Here are some "Water Requirements" from a

Changhong Nickel Iron Batteries Operators Manual.

The Chart will not copy and paste very well.

It's better than nothing just to get the idea across.

Changhong Batteries also has Charts that show the purity values for

New electrolyte ....... (as well as) ...... Limiting value during operation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Technical requirements of the water for preparing electrolyte

1. Physical specification :                   

Achromatic color

unpalatable

 transparent

No impurity

2. Resistance

à ≥200000

3. Fe

g/L ≤0.00005

4. SO42-

g/L ≤0.0005

5. Cl-

g/L ≤0.001

6. Heavy Metal Pb (g/L

 ≤0.00005

7. Ca

Mg Mgg/L ≤0.0006

8. SiO32-

g/L ≤0.0001

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then you get into the

Technical requirements for the raw materials to make up the electrolyte

where they spell out yet more about the water and the chemicals going into the electrolyte.

Elsewhere they have different criteria for testing for impurities in the electrolyte itself.

Not the water or any chemical additions that are tested for separately.

Then more criteria (TESTS) for the All Important electrolyte as time goes by.

Not to exceed yearly.

It's a mess.

 Bill Blake

 

[BillBlake]

There has been published material about charging the Edison Nickel Iron Batteries on the Internet
for a while. The advice goes back to Thomas A. Edison himself so I'll leave that end alone for now.

The Chinese Changhong Ni-Fe Batteries are another whole story with the 'Chinese Ni-Fe Veil of Silence'
to deal with.
A problem that I spoke of before where people get the batteries and then say very little in many cases
unless they have various troubles with Beutilityfree to discuss. Or may say a little something but nothing technical.

The Chinese Ni-Fe Dealers here in America and also most of the the supposed '17 Years Worth of Ni-Fe Customers'
are both to blame for the void.
That 17 years figure itself is OFF just like many of the other statements from the two Chinese
Ni-Fe Dealers in America  are way Off. That's the whole problem. I get email from people looking into buying Ni-Fe
cells every so often. Those dealers can talk some wild stuff - indeed. I ran some Ni-Fe posts last year in 2 other groups.

That's not the point here today so I'll drop it cold unless Beutilityfree wants to challenge my facts, Any of them,
and face the record which is highly unlikely.
The point today really is just how many times have you Ever read ANY discussion about Charging
Nickel-Iron-Batteries from ANY  Ni-Fe Customer from Any Year?
Why not? Where is the love?

If you go to the Changhong Solar Brochure talked about at the beginning of this thread you can see
the new marketing strategy towards the Solar market and compare those dreamboat

'BLIVET Solar Ni-Fe Charging Instructions'

with these older Changhong Ni-Fe charging instructions from years ago.
Pasted here below as best as they would transfer.
The Changhong Batteries Documents don't like being copied and moved much.

This charging data below is from back when Solar Power wasn't quite as big as it is now.

The 'Solar time slot charging' they are trying to sell NOW can be a big problem for Lead Acid Batteries as well
when they are heavily cycled.

There are other sets of Ni-Fe charging instructions in between the two time periods talked of in this post.

#1 set of charging instructions TODAY is in the Changhong Solar Catalog that you can easily look at.

# 2 is  Pasted below. That's good enough for now.

The post is going to be long enough as it is. It's more than a one post subject.
As is the Nickel Iron Battery Electrolyte.
Like was said before this subject takes 'context thinking' for anyone that wants to fool with it.
With different Author's during different time periods along with the language translation from
Chinese to English you have to make up your own mind which Charging Strategy is going to work the best for you and
your circumstances.

Soon we will have Beat some of the myths, lies and fabrications out of the Ni-Fe Game which in the
beginning is not easy. Everything is geared to make a Ni-Fe sale. What is best for you or best
for the Ni-Fe batteries seems to be of little concern with the Changhong Ni-Fe Batteries Re-sellers,
Beutilityfree and Iron Edison Batteries.

In time that can improve for us.
How many American Battery companies throw out the Manufacturer's Operators Manual
and make up their own Manual to change the game, cheapen their costs, jive you and make a sale?
Problem is it may come back to bite you for some real money for no good reason other than greed.
Naturally I have proof which is the subject of another post someday unless a re-seller wants to rush it.

Gassing (Water Consumption) Heat and  'The Lifespan of the Ni-Fe Electrolyte Itself'

rather than just considering the Lifespan of the Battery Elements enters into the formula NOW.

Notice how Changhong said they want to stay at 113 Degrees F (45C)  or below at anytime

including when charging. (Battery Temperature is another post.)

Wearing your Ni-Fe Cells out with needless initial charging and discharging was just yet another

'Wives Tale' pushed by a misinformed Changhong Dealer.

 <snip> "Equalization charges only are required when the cell voltages are not balanced."

 Let's face it. Changhong never promised you forever so if the average Joe listened to 'The Tall Ni-Fe Tales'
and ran his Cells into the ground a lot of the time with his undersized bank of 'Super Batteries' he might be
extremely lucky to see 2,000 Ni-Fe battery cycles.

At 20 grand for his batteries (just say) that's 10 dollars per cycle.
No, I wouldn't burn up (3) ten dollar bills plus needless time & electric just because some 
Changhong Battery re-seller said to.

Not if the Cells were Right (nice, new, balanced) the First Full LONG Charge.

They go to Work right THEN and right There for their first $10 worth.

They can increase in capacity as they work - if that's how they like it. I don't have to waste them.

Better to listen to the guys building the Ni-Fe batteries and actually testing the Ni-Fe cells which
is what this entire Thread is all about.

The next sets of Changhong Charging Instructions (not listed in this post) will give us more info
especially about the first Long Charge.

Real Ni-Fe Manuals, other than personal opinions, should have been pasted up on the Net Years ago.

Africa is cool but we may also have harder times coming someday right here in North America.
Changhong Batteries can change the design back closer to 'Edison Quality' if there was a real market someday
and we were not quite riding the high horse of just always buying New. Refurbishing Ni-Fe Cells makes jobs as
'Zapp Works and the Montana Horse Riders'  (hi Stephen) will tell you.

Ni-Fe really can be refurbished for many, many years if constructed more like the Edison's.
Maybe like they are now if not trashed with stupid Ni-Fe Electrolyte recommendations. (Future post).

The cheap, low performance, lowdown, sub grade, Lithium Hydroxide being pushed by the Changhong
Ni-Fe Re-sellers could easily be replaced with the 'Best There Is' Certified Reagent Grade for close to the same price
if you ever get any decent Ni-Fe volume and solid business people involved.
You can do it today even at retail prices if you know how.


CHANGHONG   OPERATION  AND  MAINTENANCE  MANUAL

 <snip>

Chapter 3 Initial Charge and Storage
 
3.1 Preparation before Initial Charge
 
After installation and connection, the battery should be fully charged as soon as possible. Before charging,
check power and charger to assure they are in proper working condition. Also check the voltage of single cells
and the battery bank, then check the temperature and the specific gravity of the electrolyte using a hydrometer.
Then connect the positive electrode of the battery with the positive terminal of the charger and
the negative electrode of the battery to the negative terminal of the charger.
 
3.2 Charge Process
 
Each battery should be charged according to the standard charge current (0.25ItA).

Batteries of the same capacity are allowed to charge together. Batteries of different types should't be

charged together.

The temperature of the electrolyte may increase slowly during the charge process.

It will harm the battery if the temperature of the electrolyte reaches 45 degrees C

and in this case the charge process should be stopped.
 
Recharge the battery after the temperature of the electrolyte decreases.

A log book entry should be filed to record the initial charge.
 
3.3 Service after Initial Charge

After the initial charge is finished the cells may not be balanced. If so, the battery should be discharged
and recharged using the equalization voltage of 1.65-1.75 volts / cell. The battery should be charged using
a charge current of 0.25It Amp for 8 hours a second time before using the battery in your application.
 
Equalization charges only are required when the cell voltages are not balanced.
 
Note:

Check the electrolyte level after the charge is finished, if the electrolyte level is obviously much lower
than that of the maximum level line, please add distilled water, de-mineralized or de-ionized water until it
reaches the maximum level line.
 
3.4 Storage after Initial Charge
 
If the battery won't be put into operation after initial charge, use the following method:
 
Because of self-discharge, the voltage of the battery will decrease over time. If the battery is going

to be stored for a year or longer after initial charge, please store correctly using the method shown in

Chapter 4.6
 
(Table 6). If the battery will be used within a year after the initial charge, please store correctly as

shown in Clause 4.6 (Table 6). Please charge the battery fully before use.
 
Chapter 4 Maintenance
 
4.1 Charge
 
The battery needs to be charged after a period of storage. The negative electrode of the battery must be
connected with the negative terminal of the charger and the positive electrode must be connected with
the positive terminal of the charger.

The battery is regarded as fully charged after 2.5h~3.0 hours of stabilization of the equalization voltage.

The equalization voltage used in the charger may be between 1.65. to 1.75 volts.
 
4.1.1 Standard Charge
 
Normally we suggest it's better to charge the battery with the standard charge method.

That is to say charge the battery at 0.25ItA for 8 hours.

The voltage used can be in the range of 1.50 to 1.55 volts.
 
4.1.2 Floating Charge
 
When the battery is used with the charger and load in parallel as an assistant power source, the battery is
 
charging with little current and will automatically recover the losses caused by self-discharge or other loads,
 
this is defined as the floating charge. In general, the floating charge voltage of the NiFe battery

is 1.45V / cell to 1.5 V / cell.

The floating charge current is about 1/40 of the value of 0.2ItA capacity.
 
4.1.3 Equalizing charge
 
When batteries have obvious voltage differences between cells, after a long term floating charge has been
 
applied to battery then an equalizing charge should be conducted for 12 hours. The voltage of the charge
 
equipment should be adjusted to the floating voltage and the battery charged for 12 hours.

 <end of snip>

 Bill Blake
 
P.S. That last paragraph needs looking into. Misprint?

They came up with another charging technique in the next part of the mini book.

[thirteen]

Exactly how was an Edision battery made and what was it truely made of. Methods back 100 years ago were very different than the way things are made today. Their method of production would interest me. If nothing else just to figure out how they did it. There should be a book on it somewhere. I may just need to go to the libarary the old fashion way. Just wondering

[BillBlake]

Exactly how was an Edision battery made and what was it truely made of. Methods back 100 years ago were very different than the way things are made today. Their method of production would interest me. If nothing else just to figure out how they did it. There should be a book on it somewhere. I may just need to go to the libarary the old fashion way. Just wondering

thirteen,

The Edison Alkaline Storage Battery  By Edison Storage Battery Company. Google it.

They give you a nice taste to get you started. Thomas A. seems to have had it down pretty good and plenty back then.

The Nickel-Iron-Battery Technology may be what a society that becomes tight fisted out of necessity has been Looking
for when it gets 'married' into a hybrid - good and proper.

Here, right here in OtherPower Land. 

Bill Blake

[BillBlake]

The notes from the Changhong Batteries Tech. Department below were translated  (by them)
from Chinese to english so keep that in mind. Also as a reference just one Government order
in China can be over twice the numbers of ALL residential Ni-Fe batteries Ever sent to America.
It's written that some single orders (in China) are twice even that size.
They are also big in Lead Acid AGM, Nickel Cadmium, Lithium Cobalt Oxide, Lithium Iron Phosphate,
Lithium Mangenese Oxide, High Power Li-ion, Nickel-Metal Hydride, Silver-Zinc and working
on future technology.

The point being that they probably have no time to Lie to you and get right down to it.
They use the words:

"overcharge or over-discharge will damage the battery life,
so in use process,
avoid overcharge and over-discharge."

If you said to them how about we run your Nickel Iron into the ground everyday, 85% dead?

This way we get away with 1/2, 1/3, perhaps even 1/4 the size of the storage battery bank we really should have
(going with most any other battery salesman). We get over.
We outsmart everybody. He he he.

They might ask you if you need to see a Doctor.

Once some reality for the Chinese Ni-Fe units is established I may have some great things
to say about the Real Ni-Fe - believe it or not.
However they will never be Edison's without going back to the Edison ways.
Nickel plated steel cases being number one on the list.
Being able to separate the positive and negative elements number two.
However if everything else is kept Kosher (without any Lies) we might be able to get past
that element separation design flaw.  (post coming up)

0.2 is C5,  0.1 is C10,  0.5 is C2, 0.05 is C20, etc.

...

Tech. Support

The following are the most frequently asked questions. However, if you have a question
that does not appear on this list, please contact us.

1. What is battery conversion efficiency, Equalizing charge and full charge

Conversion efficiency refers to the ration between continuous and stable power
in the actual the power supply and nominal power .

Equalizing charge is a continuous recharging to ensure that each single cell is
fully charged.

Full charge refers that all the available active substances in the battery change
to the state of full charge.

2. What is charging efficiency and discharge efficiency?

Charging efficiency is ration that released power in the condition of discharge
versus the power restored the initial charging state. Charging efficiency is affected
by charging rate and environment temperature. During the charging, charging current
must be within a certain range, the current too small or too large,
charging efficiency is low.
Since the batteries exist self-discharge, batteries can't be charged fully, and battery closer
saturation, charging efficiency is lower.

Discharge efficiency is ration that released actual power in the certain condition
of discharge to final voltage versus nominal capacity . Discharge efficiency is affected mainly
by the discharge rate, environmental temperature, the resistance.
Normally, higher discharge rate, the lower discharge efficiency.
Temperature is lower, the discharge efficiency is lower.

3. The reason why battery energy conversion process causes of the loss, how much
is scale of all aspects of the energy loss?

Internal resistance of the battery (including metal resistance, solution resistance,
separator resistance),

gas generation during electrolysis of water can cause loss of power.

The gases are generated during overcharging and over-discharging.

When the battery is overcharged, water can be decomposed, battery anode generates
oxygen , negative generates hydrogen.

If the batteries are overcharged 1Ah, generally, the gas of 4.1 cm3 will be
generated., the opposite situation during over-discharge.

The battery commonly uses the method of excess capacity of battery negative to
prevent excess hydrogen.

Overcharge or over-discharge will damage the battery life, so in use process,
avoid overcharge and over-discharge.

4. What current value of Equalizing charge? And what value of environmental
temperature? If battery charging conditions can't be guaranteed , what effect may
cause to the battery?

Equalizing charge is a continuous recharging to ensure that each single cell is
fully charged,. The current generally is about 0.2 ItA ,
the environmental temperature
should be about 20 ?. If charging conditions can't be guaranteed,
the battery charging state will be affected, such as:

if the charging current is higher, electrolysis of water is more vigorous,
the battery can't be charged fully.

Environmental temperature is exorbitant, the electrolyte is easy to be volatilized,
it causes "dry" battery, and damages the battery life.

5. What method is for full charge? What conditions to meet (voltage, current, time, temperature)?

Commonly constant current charge and constant voltage charge are used for full
charge at 20? ??

?1? Constant current charge : charge the battery at current of 0.2 ItA for 8 hours.

?2? If the battery is not used, the battery capacity should be supplemented with low current of

0.1 ItA - 0.05 ItA  for long time.

?3? According to the use condition of the battery, rated voltage can be different:

a) if the battery is for standby, and occasional discharge? two sections can be
adopted to charge the battery

(first stage: 1.45-1.70 V/single cell,

the second stage:

1.40 V/single cell) or one section can be adopted to charge the battery

(1.43-1.50 V/single cell) ,

(b) If the battery is used frequently, the battery is charged at the voltage of

1.5-1.60 V/single cell.

6. Why does the battery make full charge?

The purpose of full charge is to let all the available active substances be fully utilized,
and ensure the capacity of the battery.
...

As Bruce would say there is a little 'fluff' in there. However there are also a couple of
statements that I feel are very heavy duty. All a part of
'The Ni-Fe Theory of Battery-tivity' coming someday in a post, Lord willing.

Bill Blake

[thirteen]

Why can't they make they batteries the same way Edison did with the same matereials? Probably cost a mint. They seem to live a long time. Just asking?

[BillBlake]

Why can't they make they batteries the same way Edison did with the same matereials? Probably cost a mint. They seem to live a long time. Just asking?

The question can be short but any answer that is worth anything will be long. The Ni-Fe batteries could have been
better in Edison's day if he was not balancing the cost of the metals so much.

You see Edison Ni-Fe Cells never were just Nickel-Iron batteries except for some experimental Cells.
 
A variety of up to six OTHER metals were used at up to 70% (other) in a 30% Nickel alloy for plating.
Or as much as 60% (or more) of the blend with the 40% (or less) in Nickel fines.

They took Capacity jumps of 30% at a clip and it could have been even more if cost was no object.
This was years after the battery was first released. The Voltage could also be boosted some by playing with the blend
of metals used.

The Iron Negative Electrodes were also blended with various different metals, Mercury being a favorite.
Edison would have used even more Mercury if it had been cheaper.
Edison spoke about everything slowly dissolving in the electrolyte which also played into his decisions.

In the beginning they liked using a lot of Graphite until the 'dissolving factor' became too much trouble.
By 1908 Edison was way past talking about only acids, carbonates and other contaminates building up in the electrolyte
and began his long worry session about 'getting done' by the Iron Poisoning.

Even into the 1920's Edison was still writing about the destruction caused by the dissolved Iron and other contaminates.
Also writing about what was he going to do about all the damage. Doesn't seem like just stopping it crossed his Lips.

I have no idea where all the experts have had their heads stuck for the last 100+ years but His Excellency,
Thomas A. Edison didn't try to hide it all. Being in sales I doubt he went out of his way to Trumpet certain
findings either. Today you have sales people in Ni-Fe that will tell you anything to make a sale and even put it in writing.
Then put it in writing that Changhong, the manufacturer for decades now, just doesn't know like the nickel / dime
reseller knows and the Changhong findings, Life Cycle charts  and warnings are wrong.
In a few short years we will all see how the New claims for Ni-Fe people play out.

Until someone figures out which blend of which metals Changhong is using TODAY trying to figure out what they are up to
is somewhat of a waste of time.

They seem to have gotten it down pretty good in Edison's day. The technology has all kinds of tremendous potential
if it was ever run with truth and reality in mind. Today it seems to be a fools game based on laziness to dig for what is
da-n well Documented and some real stupid money to burn with pipe dreams of 7 to 10 year electrolyte.
One of them will even put 20 year electrolyte in writing.

Did Edison EVER say such things? Even one time?
OH, I know some  reseller knows MORE than Thomas A. did.

Bill Blake

[dnix71]

BillBlake your last comment shows why the lead acid battery has stood the test of time. The solubility product constants for lead and sulfate ions is low to begin with and gets lower since sulfuric acid is used for electrolyte. That means the plate do not have the tendency to dissolve. The strong inorganic acid also drives out atmosperic CO2 and prevents the formation of carbonates.

Lead acid batteries certainly have other problems, but if they are correctly sealed and salted with sodium sulfite, then the plates will not dissolve into the electrolyte and the electrolyte will stay clean.

[BillBlake]

BillBlake your last comment shows why the lead acid battery has stood the test of time. The solubility product constants for lead and sulfate ions is low to begin with and gets lower since sulfuric acid is used for electrolyte. That means the plate do not have the tendency to dissolve. The strong inorganic acid also drives out atmosperic CO2 and prevents the formation of carbonates.

Lead acid batteries certainly have other problems, but if they are correctly sealed and salted with sodium sulfite, then the plates will not dissolve into the electrolyte and the electrolyte will stay clean.

dnix71, Though it takes forever and a day to get there, deep down I'm an advocate for the
Ni-Fe technology. So far we are hearing about the electrolyte problems but in over 100 years
who has openly talked about any grown-up style prevention and outright cures.

The poor batteries have been the victim of always being in some kind of weird twilight zone.
They are always being promoted by someone that allows ignorance and pushes Lies and
planted stories about Ni-Fe. Never as bad as in the last 1.5 years or so.

So people have to get off their duff and change the electrolyte every 3 to 4 years (or so).
Perhaps go back to the 21% KOH and 2% LiOH.H20 formula that Edison used to keep the
price reasonable. Employ some cheap equipment to make the electrolyte change job less burdensome.
Get another 20% shaved off of the fat inflated Ni-Fe price. Etc.

I don't see where Edison himself ever said - hey we have a problem here, Let's deal wid it
and head it off a good bit.
However he did invent at least 3 methods to deal with the contamination problems
for AFTER the ruination of the batteries took place.

WHY is this such a secret?  How they do!

Have not yet ever found where he said how often to change the electrolyte.
His company published a couple of Manuals that mentioned it.
The instructions for Automobiles mentioned changing the electrolyte every 8 to 10 months.
The instructions for storage batteries mentioned changing the electrolyte every 3 to 6 years.

All this 7 to 10 years (or Longer) that you hear about today is nonsense pushed by all
three Ni-Fe sales outfits.

As usual I challenge them to take my statements on but I doubt it.
They either plain Lie or are truly ignorant.
Either way they will just have to continue to take the good whipping - or step up to the plate.

Edison was not the only man with a brain, Lips or ambition in his gang. He had a Doctor
of Electrical Engineering, 'Mr. Edison's Chief of Staff', that made a few bucks putting out
a book on their Ni-Fe batteries used in US Submarines.

Sure enough the Electrolyte Filtration that I wondered about was being done before the book
was published in 1915.
The carbonates that people ohh and ahh about over the decades didn't seem to scare
'the gang' anywhere near what you may think. This according to the reports coming from the
tests done for the Mighty US Navy. As the years turned into Decades Mr. Edison and his gang
talked more about the 'Iron Poisoning'. However they had a short list of other contaminates.
The bottom Line is the batteries eventually got built to last a Lifetime or longer.
We will have to tear it all the way down before it can EVER go up to where it really belongs.

It's a Holiday so we can pick it up on the next 'Light and Worthy' post 

Bill Blake

[BillBlake]

<snip> "Stanford scientists have breathed new life into a kind of battery that, a century ago, Thomas Edison hoped would prove to be be the salvation of electric cars".

Thanks to Nanotechnology this new deal that hit the air waves starting on June 26th is supposed
to be able to charge faster than the elusive (Jive or Legendary, who knows quite yet)
EEStor super capacitor. Known as the EESU, Electrical Energy Storage Unit.
Might be able to Leap tall buildings and be as good as new after MANY Lifetimes.
Like a few thousand years. Might be a pipe dream with excellent reputations on the Line.

Anyway the new hopped up version of Ni-Fe has a little problem. It begins to fag out at
800 cycles they say.

<snip> 'Rethinking the Edison Battery Ni/Fe'

Quote

ScienceDaily (June 26, 2012) — Stanford University scientists have breathed new life into the nickel-iron battery, a rechargeable technology developed by Thomas Edison more than a century ago
 
Designed in the early 1900s to power electric vehicles, the Edison battery largely went out of favor in the mid-1970s. Today only a handful of companies manufacture nickel-iron batteries, primarily to store surplus electricity from solar panels and wind turbines.
 
"The Edison battery is very durable, but it has a number of drawbacks," said Hongjie Dai, a professor of chemistry at Stanford. "A typical battery can take hours to charge, and the rate of discharge is also very slow."
 
Now, Dai and his Stanford colleagues have dramatically improved the performance of this century-old technology. The Stanford team has created an ultrafast nickel-iron battery that can be fully charged in about 2 minutes and discharged in less than 30 seconds. The results are published in the June 26 issue of the journal Nature Communications.
 
"We have increased the charging and discharging rate by nearly 1,000 times," said Stanford graduate student Hailiang Wang, lead author of the study. "We've made it really fast."
 
..............
 
"It's definitely scalable," Wang said. "Nickel, iron and carbon are relatively inexpensive. And the electrolyte is just water with potassium hydroxide, which is also very cheap and safe. It won't blow up in a car."
 
The prototype battery has one key drawback -- the ability to hold a charge over time. "It doesn't have the charge-discharge cycling stability that we would like," Dai said. "Right now it decays by about 20 percent over 800 cycles. That's about the same as a lithium-ion battery. But our battery is really fast, so we'd be using it more often. Ideally, we don't want it to decay at all.

 .......///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

T.A. Edison was WELL into a new model of Ni-Fe several years before he passed away.

It needs a lot of study someday but from a few quick looks it may be a 'shade tree special'
since some of the most complex parts of the older Ni-Fe deal look like they were eliminated.

To the very end of his battery writings Thomas A. was still talking about using other metals
including mentioning Mercury with prominence as a Standard ingredient.

If he were alive today I have to wonder if  T.A. Edison might tell today's Nickel-Iron Battery salesmen -
I have your 'Green Battery' swinging.    Mercury and all.

He also was talking about using Cadmium and other metals as an option.

The whole subject has always been so devilish .

Bill Blake

[BillBlake]

Mr. Edison wrote about his worries with the contaminates that were putting a severe stomping
on his Ni-Fe electrolyte at least as early as 1904.

This was around the same time that he shut the battery factory down for around 5 years
to work various problems out.
Everything is always (around) since Historian's have slightly different dates.
I try to use the 'most official' source of dates available that is overseen by
'an Edison Doctor' (PhD).
 
Edison talked about various acids, carbonates, organic matter and other soluble impurities
resulting in his Ni-Fe batteries getting taken out (destroyed) due to an eventual severe
loss of capacity.
 
It was 1907 before the proof was in print (first that I could find) that Mr. Edison had picked up on
the dissolved Iron becoming a huge problem with the positive elements.
He moved this problem to the top of the contaminates list claiming that the electrolyte was
slowly dissolving the iron and other goodies.
The Cobalt, Mercury (and other metals) being used in the Ni-Fe Cells slowly dissolving in the
electrolyte was already known and talked about officially.
 
You see as I have tried to make abundantly clear the Ni-Fe Story has
always been dominated by jive and planted stories.
They knew all along, from the jump, that if people were too Lazy or too cheap to change the electrolyte
in a timely manor - the batteries REALLY had something bad for them -
sure as he-l. No Playing. Guess they figured that you can't fight human nature
and that they should just work on being able to bring the Ni-Fe Cells back from the dead.
Which they did.
But you never heard about it in over 100 years.
 
Who has EVER spread the true word directly from T.A. Edison's own Lips?
It wasn't exactly yelled from the roof tops back when he was alive.
 
Over 100 years later you still hear from jive Ni-Fe battery salesman that
claim the electrolyte is a preservative.
 
This along with their 'Green Batteries' Loaded with Mercury and
loaded with other metals (besides nickel and iron) not mentioned much at all
in over 100 years.
Now, finally, they get the Dime dropped square on them - thanks to the power of OtherPower.
 
It's no wonder I became drawn like a moth to a flame with all the mystery, the myths,
the contradictions and the MANY riddles that ran wild for over a century.

The Internet is being  pumped with fresh Ni-Fe lies and distortions to take your money under
false pretenses all the time.
The experimental Ni-Fe quick charge version as of 6/26/12 presented an opening to grab
a few
(run the Ni-Fe cells 85% dead for 7 to 10 years - then just change the electrolyte) dreamers.

Actually, suckers unfortunately.

The changes that the Iron goes through just can't take that abuse - period.

Do the people not see the Life Cycle charts from Changhong? Or does the change the electrolyte
and they will be like new story confuse them?

It takes a LOT more than just changing the electrolyte to get rid of the contaminates once
they were given enough time to dwell / hang in the solution long enough to work
into the Elements.
 
Unlike Changhong Ni-Fe batteries Edison's Ni-Fe Cells used very small reservoirs to begin with. (Future post). 

I told my kids - hey I'm retired - sue me - when they said I was wasting time.
It beats a hundred dollar bar tab and a DUI - don't it?

One of my kids said "You just like terrorizing the Lying Ni-Fe battery
sales (artists) too much is what it is. They fear what you find out."
(No way, the poor things.) 
 
That caustic substance, Potassium Hydroxide will burn your skin off
and as Modern welding x-rays have shown it attacks even, huge dollar,
nickel welded joints just fine. It just takes time.
 
Rather than just say HEY Fellas let's get real on an electrolyte change schedule with
these Ni-Fe batteries Edison just developed his first battery re-conditioning method by 1904.

The things hadn't even been on the market very long.
 
There may have been sales department pressure against him saying too much. Who knows?
 
Coming up next we go back to the huge Ni-Fe Submarine batteries and the lessons that
were learned.

They were so afraid of (just) carbonates with their advanced battery recovery methods that
a submarine crew could dog the Ni-Fe cells as Carbon Dioxide scrubbers for 100 days
and they would take care of business just fine.

Then they would service the batteries and be ready to ride again.

Thomas A. had talked about using a filter to get organic stuff out of the electrolyte
(he wasn't exactly sure why it worked) which stopped the foaming, frothing or whatever.

Mr. Edison had some of his TOP people on this Submarine deal
for a long time.

Bill Blake
 

[bob g]

i personally find all this fascinating on so many levels

from a historical viewpoint
from a technical viewpoint
from a sales viewpoint
from human nature viewpoint, and

a few others

i think we need to take a serious reality check on mr. edison to start with!
yes he made a lot of cool stuff, or at least his people did under his name. things like phonographs and light bulbs have stood the test of time, however his DC scheme didn't fair as well even with all his efforts to make AC out as the killer of children and small animals
(the elephant not withstanding).

when things he had built that have his name, work out over time, and as such are proven in daily use, then fine i will give him credit where credit is due,,, however when it comes to his nife battery i am not so quick to jump on board.

if these things were so wonderful i would think we would see them in current production here in the US in some application, somewhere?  we don't, and we need to ask why?

they have their strong points, of course, but they also have serious weaknesses too! 

i can't imagine spending 10's of thousands of dollars for chinese manufactured cells, that may or may not be anywhere as good as edison cells, which arguably were not as good as folklore would suggest to start with.  somehow i am to believe that the chinese have
worked the kinks out of these things?  bullcrappolla!

there will always be those that will believe anything advertized because there is a strong need to believe in stuff that might make our lives easier or better.

we need more critical thinking skills taught in school.

bob g

[BillBlake]

I hear you Bob g,

Not every Historian was sniffing in the herb garden and wearing rose colored glasses when it
came to Thomas A. At the end of his Life some say how 'he did' the Legendary
Nikola Telsa (who had worked for Edison until Telsa got beat)
still bothered him.

Some claim, in writing, that when the Legendary Waldemar Jungner had a legitimate
US Patent already approved, bought and paid for Mr. Edison wrote to President Roosevelt so he
could 'do the man' and have them tear the Patent up so he could 'satisfy hiSself'.

Even his official 'Edison Doctor' Historian allows clips about how he was always 'doing' the help
if he felt it was necessary to get him over. With hundreds of thousands coming in $ (they say)
he made a big deal out of lending one of his Son's $150 to move to the Country.

It was a big deal that he paid Thomas A. Edison, Jr $35 per week to not use his name in business.

It goes on and on. Sounds like he was a brilliant, very determined man that liked to
'grab a little help' anyway he could get it.

As time permits I want to learn more especially about his Last Ni-Fe Battery that he had years
into perfecting. That unit seems to have remarkable similarities to this latest stuff today
(without the Nano end of it of coarse).

I studied Edison before diving into 'Changhong and the Electric Indian' real good.
Now when time permits I'm back with Edison. To me it made sense that way so I could hopefully
get the riddles solved.

The Ni-Fe Technology doesn't seem to have ever been really been played properly.

Only time will tell. 'The Ni-Fe Theory of Battery-tivity' might wind up being a hit someday,
once put on the Street. First Ni-Fe needs a lot of slow work and understanding.

Many times the tone of an entity or organization starts at the top and works it way down.
Not work from the Lackeys going up.

Ni-Fe seems to have always been a tight fisted, selfish, ungiving, jive, get over game.

Have there ever been even a good solid handful of Comprehensive User Reports about Ni-Fe?

We got ONE in Feb. 2012 in another group from a Doctor in Texas named Marcus.
I was totally out of the deal for 7 months working on a high stakes project that does have 
a few bucks in it for my want-to-be Son.

Marcus was answering my post called:

'Nickel Iron (NiFe) Batteries ... The few, but Overwhelming and Towering Strengths'

and his response was Giving, Legendary, Over and Out. He offered to tell more and they all sat
there like dumb bunny's. Not a single word back so the Doc flew off never to return.

Meanwhile one of the highest number of home power Posters - Ever written in history.
A guy who was writing to me off list all worried about John D'Angelo. He just keeps racking up
his thousands of posts about everything else while sitting on his  25k or so in new Ni-Fe Cells.
Said nothing to Marcus about Ni-Fe and has said Precious Little about his Ni-Fe Cells.

It starts 'The Ni-Fe Cells are Coming'.

Then China has problems.
Then Customs has problems.

Then their left ear itches. 

Or they write me off List with all their paranoia about John during or sometimes after the sale.
Can I console them and they will come up with a little data like the tiny little bit I asked for -
but never got.

Then perhaps some talk about how John D'Angelo at Beutilityfree outright 'did them' like your
man here at OtherPower 'Shay'.

He called himself 'Chump' in one of the Rip-off Reports.

'John D'Angelo (Beutilityfree) and Brandon Williams (of Iron Edison) Rip-off Report'.

Chump was the Star of a Post I wrote called:

'Last List of 13 Nickel Iron Battery Questions .. by the 2009 NiFe Man'.

Then they promise to tell everybody how it goes with their new Ni-Fe Cells.

Then next to nothing. 

Does it bother me. Do I feel the Need to put out a Lot of Posts telling what it took
3 of us Long hours to Learn?
Not really. Never been my style.
Like I told Bruce I just didn't want to take it with me.
Plus it seems to be a real great group.

Bill Blake

PS I'll be back in 2 - 3  weeks if there are any questions or comments about the
first mini chapters.

[BillBlake]

(Credit to His Excellency, Ramses II and his gang, for the Title.)

A veneer of knowledge can be a dangerous thing if Lives ever get put on the Line.

Quote from a bigtime Ni-Fe Website:

"The Nickel Iron battery can be overcharged for decades without damage as it merrily bubbles out its hydrogen.

We only need to figure out how to collect it without affecting the battery function."

People read that kind of stuff and actually buy it. The Hydrogen is very interesting but all this abuse for decades

stuff when they know little, if anything, about various long term Ni-Fe Revival Technology is some real jive.

In some scenarios the Oxygen that gets generated by the Ni-Fe batteries could be more important that the hydrogen.

The hydrogen could just be a by-product (that gets used) to produce yet more cubic meters of Oxygen

and more stored electricity.

Outside air might be good enough to grab (somewhat) filtered  oxygen to burn with the hydrogen (outside of the compound).

Fine filtering and then fine purification (at a virus level) of the air going inside might deplete the filter resources too quickly.

In one vision not only does the Ni-Fe Power Store power, filter out Carbon Dioxide from the air but it also produces some

Oxygen to replenish the inside Air along with Hydrogen for more fuel. ( Plus some bacon and eggs on the side    )

The thing is the Ni-Fe Cells will produce the goodies - whether they are put to good use or not.

Whether you Likes it or not.

Changhong and the Electric Indian knows a whole lot. They just don't like giving it up. My little gang doesn't give it

ALL up either for that matter. Changhong tells me (reading between da Lines) that they are kind of sorry that they said

as much as they did and they are gradually writing some of the info 'back out' of their published info. Naturally old Bill

had to say to Changhong  ( CEI )   he, he, he - I already made all kinds of copies. Too late you sly devils :-)

One item that Changhong taught us in the NF-S Series Catalog that this whole thread (appropriately) started with was:

"The electrolysis of 1cc of water generates 2000cc of mixture gas in the proportion of  2/3 hydrogen and 1/3 oxygen."

Just where have you seen that info before? 2000 to one is a staggering, powerful amount.

Changhong cutely ended their chart showing you how the gas production 'really gets smokin'
at 1.6 Volts of Charge per Cell.

Even though their 'Solar BLIVET Charging' (trying to squeeze 8 hours worth of charge into a 4 hour bag)

methodology calls for 1.65 to 1.75 Volts per cell.  The chart stops RISING FAST at only 1.6 Volts.

Everything is just too cute with Ni-Fe. This has always been and is still the biggest problem today.

I would like to see the Iron Edison Battery Co. quit chopping a few charts or a page or two out of different

Changhong Documents and making the info look like they actually know a whole lot with no mention of mighty Changhong.

Then changing the Changhong Language and the Results to suit Iron Edison's Changhong Battery Ni-Fe sales
and misinform the public for the dollar.
Don't ever worry about me getting sued because they know that I have them.
We should see the whole, Original Changhong document used in Sales from here on out - or nothing at all.
IF NOT - why not?

Then Changhong themselves (this time) further enter the 'Cute-ie Zone' and they say:

"If deep discharge cycling is frequently carried out, it is recommended that you turn up the charge voltage."

They seem to go back and forth between cute and brilliant with brilliance being in a higher percentage bracket.

Perhaps someday we can explore some dazzling facts about electrolysis and what it can do.

Keep in mind many times, like in Space Travel you have strict square footage limits for everything.

What I'm referring to is a situation that doesn't care too much about size or weight - just great results at rock bottom costs.
Low cost, simple as possible, redundant results is old Bill's forte.

This Nickelodeon :-)  Technology may be able to feed several birds with one dish.

Someday, for any number of reasons, people may have to get away from the outside air for a good long time.
As part of previous Air and Water Purification studies I got into CO2 scrubbing for when outside conditions might be
at their worst for a while someday.
Not to go all wild or anything but if a complex, or in the case of this Post - a Pre WWI Submarine,
wanted to get double duty out of the Ni-Fe battery bank at very little additional cost - why not?
Even triple (or more) duty for that matter.

As Barry White might have sung - We found what the Low Cost Carbon Dioxide Scrubbing World  was looking for -
here, right here in OtherPower Land.
Already said. Already written. Already done.

Ideas that hope for new inventions are plentiful , like the wind sometimes, and I Likes some of the ideas - just dandy.

In this particular Thread I'm trying to stay mostly with equipment that already has a track record.
Not trying to re-invent the wheel.

The old Ni-Fe stuff was NEVER fully utilized - at all. Then the Century plus of Lies and Myths never any worse than
in Ni-Fe Sales today has held the True Ni-Fe movement way back.

YES, someday someone with the resources can re-do Ni-Fe to make more sense and be better than ever
based on what we are learning.

Right now trying to find out how they were slapping 'THE TREATMENT' to the Electrolyte for the mighty
US Navy Submarine Force
needs to go on the Ni-Fe Worldwide "To Do List."

I hope the College Boys and Gals will be paying close attention  to the free ride that only OtherPower
made available to you - as future years go bye.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Edison Ni-Fe Cells in US Submarines.

Pre 1915.

Quotes. Can I get a witness?

"After a term of years - perhaps from four to six years of submarine boat service it becomes necessary

to Remove the electrolyte from The Edison Storage Battery , treat it and return it to the cells.

For this purpose there is a tube running from the top to within a short distance of the bottom of the cell.

An air hose is applied to the filling aperture and a rubber hose attached to the top of the tube empties the cell

without disturbing it.

It may be filled by reversing the process."

...

"There is a drain tube secured to the cover of the cell and passing down one side of the cell

to within one-half inch of the bottom. It is provided at the top with a cap for properly

sealing when not in use. So when it becomes necessary to remove the electrolyte

from the cell - after a term of years - it is only necessary to apply air to the water seal outlet.

A hose, attached to the drain tube, deposits the electrolyte into a steel drum or other steel

vessel for treatment, after which it can be returned to the cell again.

This drain tube also serves the additional function of allowing air to be passed through

the electrolyte for the removal of CO2 (carbon dioxide) from the air as an emergency

measure in enforced prolonged submersion."


Bill Blake

[BillBlake]

Some older Ni-Fe thoughts:
You have important differences between Edison Nickel-Iron Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe.
Some obvious and some that are not so noticeable.
All of them seem to be very important. One change is that the Edison Cells -
Positive and Negative Plates  (Elements)
were kept fastened together with a hardware system where the Negative and Positive Elements
could be separated for 'secret Ni-Fe service' if need be.

This is where your old timer accounts about cleaning the plates and if necessary even
reconditioning the Positive 'Nickel Matrix Material' located in the pockets of the
positive plates comes to play.
 One expert that helped me calls it 'A Lost Art' that he learned in his youth and then forgot over
many decades of a long life. Nothing got Lost. Not a bit of it.
 
Today the Chinese Ni-Fe Plates are welded to a current carrying bar so if you contaminate the
positive elements which is the Nickel Hydroxide (+ additives ?) (Other Metals?), your in big trouble.

If it doesn't all rinse out with flushing (which I Highly doubt) then it's tough and you lose capacity.

Another major difference was going from the full metal cases (jars) to much more fragile
plastic cases. I feel that this may have been a huge mistake and may have a
major influence on the 'touchy' Ni-Fe Electrolyte. (another post) If you read the catalog called
'Changhong NF-S Series Nickel-Iron batteries for solar PV Application'

they tell you to Look for around 3 years (or so) of total use at 80% DOD which is Much lower
than what the Rolls 5000 Series batteries have in them.

I believe the Rolls 5000 series looks like they have around 82% MORE Life Cycles at 80% DOD
than the Changhong Ni-Fe cells do. Around 58% more Cycles at 100% DOD.

The Changhong cells start to show an advantage over the Rolls once you get up to
a MUCH More Reasonable DOD. At 50% DOD (50% Dead) the 2 battery technologies are fairly even.
 
The Chinese Ni-Fe Cells Shine at 20% DOD.
 
A NEW Look at old Charging routine's may be needed for Longer electrolyte life and less problems in general.
(Future post.)

Now more than ever the name of the game is to avoid Positive Element Contamination from
The Very Beginning. It's NOT just Carbonates that you have to worry about.

According to certified research notes from Thomas A. Edison the Ni-Fe Cells (in time) are fully capable of
Self Destruction - all by themselves. Iron (and other) Poisoning of the Positive Electrodes.
 
Bill Blake

[BillBlake]

Page 2,  THE DOLPHIN BROTHERHOOD.
 
Edison's Battery and Submarines.   By Don Gentry.
 
In 1909, Thomas Edison produced the first alkaline battery. Instead of lead and lead oxide,
his battery
utilized iron and nickel oxide. In place of the sulfuric acid electrolyte used in lead-acid batteries,
Edison used caustic potash – and the batteries were incased in steel. The battery was more efficient, longer lasting, and more stable than its counterpart.
 
Edison's assistant and principal business partner Miller Reese Hutchinson visited the Naval Academy
in June, 1910. There to demonstrate a new form of tachometer, Hutchison went along on several demonstration dives where
he learned the shortcomings of lead-acid batteries. Reportedly, Hutchison was asked by several Navy officers
to adapt the new Edison battery for submarine use. Five years later, the battery was ready for testing.
 
On paper, the new alkaline battery seemed superior for submarine application. The strong casing reduced the
possibility of leakage and there was no danger of chlorine gas.
Possibly due to Edison's influence
as head of the newly formed Naval Consulting Board (a panel of civilians and military officers
charged with guiding Naval development) , the battery was soon scheduled for testing.
 
The submarine chosen as the test bed was the E-2. There was one important difference between leadacid batteries and the alkaline battery.
 
Lead-acid batteries gave off hydrogen while they discharging
 
while the alkaline battery gave off hydrogen while charging.

Edison and his engineers claimed that the same venting procedures in place for lead-acid batteries would work for the
alkaline version.

In August (1915), the E-2 tied up at the Brooklyn Navy Yard. Workmen removed the existing batteries and installed 240 Edison cells.
 
The E-2's captain was Charles “Savvy” Cooke who felt Hutchison's ventilation and cooling system was inadequate.
Cooke wrote letters through the
chain of command for months warning of the dangers of hydrogen gas – they were ignored.
 
During the next several weeks, several small explosions occurred in the battery compartments.
Hutchison dismissed the detonations as insignificant but agreed to conduct accurate measurements of hydrogen gas.
 
Cooke was disappointed when the Bureau of Steam Engineering reported only infinitesimal amounts of hydrogen in the
battery wells.
Feeling that any level of gas was a concern, Cooke went so far as to make his own changes to
the ventilation system drawings.
 
When Hutchison learned of this, he complained and the changes were discarded.
In December, power profiles of the new batteries indicated insufficient capacity. To remedy this, Hutchison decided to force the batteries
through a complete charge and discharge cycle (to thicken the current generating chemical layers on the plates).

To do this, he would connect both groups of cells together, connect them to the eard's power supply and drive them
though the sequence in single day. During this cycle, the boat's electricians would monitor performance and water the cells.
 
With all the cells linked together, it was possible for some of them to discharge completely and then to begin charging again

using current from the remainder of the cells still in the discharge phase.

During laboratory trials, Edison's engineers noted that such “reversed cells” generated hydrogen at a much higher rate than usual.
Hutchison, aware of the tests, apparently didn't recognize their significance in the E-2's application –  a fatal oversight.

On Friday, January 15th, EM2/c Otto was carrying an empty water barrel up to the deck to refill it.
 As he straddled the hatch trying to get the barrelthrough, there was a muffled thump followed by a
forced that spun him into the air. Cooke, aboard the tender Ozark one dock away, heard the noise
and ran to a window where he saw a puff of dirty white smoke emit from the E-2's main hatch.
He rushed to dock #2 where the E-2 was tied up. By the time Cooke reached the boat, thick black
smoke was billowing from all hatches and debris was scatter about. To his horror, Cooke saw one of
the E-2's electricians down on the deck, his right  leg severed at the hip.
Ignoring the danger, Cooke lead a group of men down through the main hatch where they heard
people moaning and calling for help. Unfortunately, the dense fire and smoke prevented them
from rendering assistance at that point. Returning to the dock, Cooke ordered fire hoses to be directed at the boat's interior.

He found Otto wandering aimlessly nearby and sent him to the hospital.
After ordering gas masks and fans, he reentered the boat with another group of volunteers.
Moving quickly, rescuers found more survivors, and more bodies – four total, with ten injured.
 
The initial investigation concluded that a hydrogen explosion was to blame.
 
Favoring the Edison battery, Navy Secretary Daniels rejected these conclusions and ordered a formal inquiry.
 
The inquiry nearly ruined Cooke's career who, although absolved of any blame, was reassigned
him to a landlocked supply ship in Boston Harbor. It would not be until December 1918 that Cooke would command another submarine – the R-2.
 
Eleven months later, he would received orders to take command of one of the new S-boats.
Soon after, he and his crew would make submarine history aboard the S-5.
 
[The above was condensed from the recently publish  “Under Pressure”, an excellent book on
the S-5 sinking and crew recovery by AJ Hill—Don]
 
http://www.submarinesailor(DOTcom)/ussvi/seattlebase/seattlebasevol4no5.pdf
 
 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 
Just who was 'Savvy Cooke' that Edison's gang messed with?
 
UNDERSEA WARFARE
 
The Official Magazine of the US Submarine Force
 
<snip>
 
The Only Way Out?
 
…as air escaped through the widening hole, the decreasing internal pressure allowed more water to leak into the hull,
and the boat began slowly sinking back toward the bottom. The crew's race against time accelerated.
 
<snip>
 
"Savvy Cooke served in the Navy for nearly 30 more years and retired as a full admiral in 1948. During this period, he commanded
Submarine Division 11 in the early 1930s and the battleship USS Pennsylvania (BB-38) during the Pearl Harbor attack, when the ship
was in drydock and suffered little damage. Later in World War II, as an advisor to allied forces, he went ashore as an

observer at Normandy on D-Day, and after the final victory, he served for two years as Commander, Seventh Fleet.
Cooke died in 1970 and is buried in Arlington National Cemetery."
 
Dr. Whitman is the Senior Editor of UNDERSEA WARFARE Magazine.
 
http://www.navy(DOTmil)navydata/cno/n87/usw/issue_23/s52.htm
 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The 30 years (or so) is after the sinking and the Legendary saving of the 40 men or so of the US Navy S-5 Submarine in 1920.
Captain / Admiral Cooke's quick thinking and the dedication shown by the Captains and Engineers of two passing

merchant ships saved them all from certain death.) The US Navy takes care of their own and sent ships including a
Battleship to help them but the submariners and sailors from the merchant ships worked  hard and already had them out.
 
It took a lot of pull to allegedly try to play Admiral Cooke for 'the sweetboy' in  that 1916 Ni-Fe Battery explosion
but evidently most of the Navy never really bought the story that it wasn't the batteries that caused the explosion
 for very long.
(Even the Official Edison Historian said they all knew it was the Ni-Fe Batteries that did it,)
Admiral Cooke went about as high as a 4 Star Admiral could go during WWII as the right hand
man to a very rare 5 Star Admiral  and a trusted voice for President Roosevelt.

The Edison Historians may have forgot a big point made by the Electric Car Historians.
 
Doctor Miller Reece Hutchinson  was Edison's  Chief Engineer and Personal Representative. 
Other sources claim that he also had his own business that was connected to Edison's Companies.
 
Little do we hear about the 15 Million Dollar US Navy Submarine Battery Contract that Mr. Edison landed in March of 1915.
 
That was a huge amount of money back then.
 
<Snip>
 
1915 Detroit Electric Drive Train

Edison got a fifteen million dollar Navy contract for his battery in March of 1915, making them unavailable for the 1916 model year.
 
The last Detroit shipped with an Edison Battery was on April 5th 1915.
 
Baker Electric merged with Rauch & Lang (German for "smoke & long") to resolve patent disputes. The cars and
management of Owen Magnetic, plus capitol and management from General Electric were folded in.
 
Bill Blake

[BillBlake]

The Submarine Boat Type
of
Edison Storage Battery
 
by
Miller Reese Hutchison, E.E., Ph.D. 
in 1915
 
Chief Engineer and Personal Representative of
His Excellency,
Thomas A. Edison
 
"Potash has a great affinity for carbonic-acid gas, and if, in prolonged submerged runs the percentage of
CO2 in the boat gets too high, a rubber hose from a small air pump, with intake located on or near the
battery deck and with discharge pipe connected to the tube going down to within one-quarter inch of the
bottom of any one of the Edison Cells in the battery tank, will cause the air to be blown through
the potash electrolyte of that cell.

All  of the carbonic-acid gas in the air will remain in the cell.
There is sufficient Potash in a submarine boat battery to absorb all the CO given off by the crew
for 100 days
No harm is done to the battery, and the electrolyte may be removed when opportunity arises, after the run.
 
An oxygen generating appliance will complete the system of air purification and rejuvenation."
 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 
That first paragraph is all one sentence!
 
I don't see where they EVER talked about this subject much anyplace but this whole Ni-Fe deal takes a little
"context thinking" all the way down the line to try to fill in the blanks.
Hopefully we are doing alright. 
 
They had been 'Bringing Ni-Fe batteries Back from the Dead' for over a decade by the time this book was written.
More importantly it was a Ni-Fe recovery method that did not require cutting the badboys
(cells) open.
 
They 'allude to' using advanced electrolyte  filtration  (perhaps plus additives) on the giant Submarine 
Ni-Fe Batteries, known as ( The Treatment. )
 
Advanced electrolyte filtration (that had a magical effect)  to deal with 'other electrolyte problems'
was already in use by no later than 1904.

(ANOTHER Electrolyte Treatment where you ALSO took the electrolyte out of the Cell and then put it Back.)

As a result of the additional research years, the 2 Million Dollars (Pre 1915 US Dollars)  and
the over
55,000 Additional Ni-Fe experiments that went into the Special USA project for the mighty
US Navy -
the Edison  US Submarine Ni-Fe batteries were created.

Keep in mind the 10 YEARS of  Nickel-Iron-Battery experiments you hear about were Long
over with by the time they cranked up this getting ready for World War One project for the US Navy.

The Sailors could breath and live with good air for many days, if necessary, on the extraordinary

CO2 (carbon dioxide) absorbing back of the huge Edison Ni-Fe Submarine Cells. 
This power (and oxygen) permitting - to run the air pump, etc. - which is another question.
 
If ever used as  a CO2 scrubber US Navy technicians probably put the (Clean-up)  to  the
Ni-Fe Cell Plates AND  replaced the Electrolyte that was inside the Cell / Cells.
It kind of sounds like they may just  have needed one huge Ni-Fe cell for the CO2  feat the way
it is written.
 
The Germans, Chinese, etc. TODAY have NOTHING on these people from a Century ago.
 
As a matter of fact with all the modern environmental concerns now they Can Not match what already was.

That Mercury, Bismuth, Tin, etc. that they used back in the day is bigger than all of us
as Kojak would say.
SOME Cobalt and Copper with a LOT of Iron and 20% Nickel is used today.

Old Edison Ni-Fe Cells OR New Chinese, Changhong Ni-Fe Batteries  sold by Beutilityfree and Iron Edison.

Doesn't matter. No  Legitimate Ni-Fe Company Ever said you could run Ni-Fe cells 85% Dead
every day and get away with it.
Only one new 2012 Ni-Fe AD Campaign based on false statements and nonsense EVER tried to
lead people down that path which is no good.

Some years Edison used Cobalt or a Cobalt /Nickel blend (with 60% to 70% Cobalt).
Mr. Edison loved his Mercury, Tin and Cobalt but mentions Nickel as being cheaper than Cobalt back then.
Mercury is also mentioned as being used in the Submarine Ni-Fe batteries
by the Dr. above who wrote the book.

Bill Blake

[BillBlake]

Happy Holidays to ALL da gang out there!
You know who you are. 

The big Ni-Fe News for 2012 turns out to be Mike90250, the Moderator / Engineer over at the
SolarPanelTalk Forum stepping forth and telling how he evidently may have 'got done'
for his 25+ Thousand Dollars by John Mario D'Angelo and Changhong Batteries

AKA / 'Changhong and The Electric Indian'.

Sound to me dat if a man wants to spend the big money on Ni-Fe he Best check out the
Quality of the Electrolyte Powder.

NOW (before it goes in) - not Later - old Bill says.

Remember the old saying:

"The Quality Goes In Before The Name Goes On."

Something like that.

A fellow from this forum just wrote to me wanting a little inside info on Ni-Fe Batteries and
the Legendary "Dry Charged" Rolls Batteries.

I see he just ran Posts at the Survival Monkey forum and the SolarPanelTalk forum about it.

Being a nice guy    I looked for a Link for him and stumbled into

'The Back Door Man' world that the sly devil Rolls Boys set up.

I wasn't aware of it - were you?.

Little 'Tasties' like:

Pulse Charging - Flooded Lead Acid Batteries

Pulse Charging
 
Pulse charging has shown that banks do not get as severely sulfated as ones with traditional
3 step charging when subjected to the same undercharge conditions.
Pulse charging will lower the degree of sulfation but it will not eliminate the need for a controlled,
preventive equalization.
The benefit of pulse charging is that the bank will require less overcharge and, therefore,
less maintenance.
 
Was this article useful? Yes or No

http://support.rollsbattery.com/solution/categories/687/folders/10489/articles/429-pulse-charging-flooded-lead-acid-batteries

Solutions → Activating Dry Charged Batteries → Instructions

Activating Dry Charged Batteries

Special order batteries may be shipped dry (acid shipped separately).
To activate these batteries, start by removing the vent caps. Using approved battery grade electrolyte (1.265),
fill each cell
half way between the plates and the bottom of the vent well tube. 
It is important not to over fill the cells as the acid will expand upon charging.
If the cells are too full, the acid will spill out of the top of the cells.
Allow electrolyte to saturate into the plates and separators for at least 90 minutes.
The temperature of the electrolyte will rise and the specific gravity will drop.
Once this is complete, place the batteries on charge at the finishing rate
(5% of the 8 or 20 hour rate).
The rate may be increased if the battery does not begin to gas.
Do not let the cell temperature exceed 115° F (46° C).
If the temperature becomes excessive or the cells begin to gas vigorously, reduce the
rate of charge.
Continue charging until the cell (or cells) reaches within .005 points of the specific gravity of the filling electrolyte
corrected for 77° F (25° C).
We recommend to continue charging for an additional 60 minutes to insure no further rise in specific gravity.
Top up or remove electrolyte as necessary for proper level.
Never add electrolyte (only approved water) after activation. 
Replace vent caps and remove any spillage of electrolyte.
If necessary, clean with bicarbonate of soda and water (100 grams of soda to one liter of water).
Rinse with water and wipe dry. Ensure that soda solution does not get into cells.
*Do not place on charge until electrolyte temperature is below 35°C.
For detailed information on Battery Activation, please refer to Rolls Battery User Manual
 
Was this article useful? Yes or No

http://support.rollsbattery.com/solution/categories/695/folders/1396/articles/437-activating-dry-charged-batteries

Now I knows where the graphs disappeared to, the devils:

Solutions

General Default solution category, feel free to edit or delete it.

Battery Charging

Battery User Manual

Battery Maintenance - Flooded Lead Acid Batteries

Warranty Battery Test Sheet, Warranty Claim Form

Equalization

Measuring Specific Gravity

Activating Dry Charged Batteries Inspect the cell for damage, Read Warning Label On Cell Before Proceeding. R...

Graphs

http://support.rollsbattery.com/home


Bill Blake

[thirteen]

thank you for your search. 13

[BillBlake]

A few thoughts about Mr. Edison's Nickle Iron Battery Reconditioning method of 1904.

Using Edison Patent dated May 29, 1906... is the same thing as I've talked about.

I prefer to use the 'Applied Date' instead of the 'Issued Date' because if you look at the
147 Edison Battery Patents that Rutgers University sits on the dates between applied and issued
can fluctuate by years from Patent to Patent.

The Applied date shows us where and when Mr. Edison mind was at.
How old Bill likes it.

Still say that if there is any real interest someone with some computer savvy or the proper Adobe Software
should post that badboy Patent and we can review it.

It's too easy to 'wag the dog' with Mr. Edison.
He may be giving us real good leads but not the whole answer for today's Ni-Fe.
Or MOST Edison Ni-Fe Cells.

For instance if you read that document a number of times I believe he's talking about graphite based
Nickel Iron Batteries which I believe he quit using when they shut the Edison battery factory down for
several years in 1905.
He was talking about the graphite dissolving in the Electrolyte too quickly in other Patents.

It seems to be about "context thinking" with Mr. Edison.

A "veneer of knowledge" approach is never going to work with Mr. Edison.
It's always going to take a lot of time and work with his wonderful Ni-Fe technology to get it right.
Like they did for the US Navy.

Now you need to remember that I have briefly talked about Mr. Edison's Ni-Fe Reconditioning Process
of 1922 as well on the Internet.

That is what Zapp Works has used to recondition thousands of Edison Ni-Fe Cells - not a few -
yet nobody seemed that interested.

Zapp Works told me in writing that they liked my attitude and were thinking long and hard about the
carbonate "fox in the hen house" contamination theory
that I came up with.

They shared the method that they developed to clean-up Nickle Iron Batteries that were not too far gone
in situ (without removing the cases).

There didn't seem to be enough interest to continue with it and then you can also get the attack dogs
if you get into uncharted territory
that may be a number of years ahead of it's time.

For todays problems I still feel that a Lead Acid / Nickel Iron Hybrid system is going to be the answer.

The LA thrives on 'Finish Charges' and as long as the Nickel Iron Cells can get a 'Boost Charge'
once in a while
the Ni-Fe Batteries
don't seem to care how finished their charge is.

This is a huge consideration.

No sulfation problems but they are less efficient than Lead Acid in many other ways.

However I see a smaller Ni-Fe bank acting as a servant to the larger Lead Acid Bank
cutting the generator out of the act many times -
not all of the time.

'Old Bill's Time Shifting The SunLight'.

This technology marriage and way less generator fuel may become obvious someday.

Someone with a few bucks and 'the push'
should put a Ni-Fe Cell on the market improving on what the Edison Company did after
the 'Third Round'
of tremendous amounts
of man hours and money for the US Navy.
This was back in the WWI days.

NOT having to go through endless changes, endless Work and Time
like Mike is doing with his massive Ni-Fe Bank over at the Solar Panel Talk forum.

What he puts up with to add water - then the man has to live in fear
about having to do an Electrolyte change.

Mike bought the Carbonate Test Kit but seems afraid to use it for many months now.

I predicted how and why 'he was done' by 'Changhong and the Electric Indian'
a long time ago.

Let's face it.
'Diamond' John Mario D'Angelo didn't start going though all those changes about
a separate shipment of the Electrolyte Powder for nothing.

China used to take care of it all.

Now you read on this forum how a member had to wait a couple of extra weeks for a separate shipment of the powder.
Since John did Federal prison time over that powder in the past I'm sure his decision to get 'hip deep'
with it again didn't come lightly.

More context thinking.
 
This all has to change before I can buy Nickel Iron Batteries !!

We also need the metal case again and the hardware where the plates can be taken apart
to get reconditioned as the years go by.
Re-design the case where it can be taken apart like Zapp Works did.

It's not a 'moon shot'

I'll 'armchair' the badboy for them long as I can have a little fun once in a while :-)

Bill Blake

[nifeman]

 You wrote on June 5, 2012 :

"I've had a bad feeling about the plastic cases 'Cans' for a long time.
Especially this new semi-clear stuff that John D'Angelo has commented about
handling gently to avoid breakage. The devils.  "

The plastic cases (mainly polypropylene or PP) have been used in the nickel cadmium industry for my best guess is at least 60 years or more. All of the cells that BeUtilityFree has sold over 19 years (>10,000 cells) all have plastic cases. The original cases where actually clear acrylic cases which the Chinese do not make any longer, then BUF went to the PP cases. After not being able to see the electrolyte level in them they went to the MBS semi transparent cases that they import to this day. Nothing worse than not being about to see your electrolyte level in the cells! Plastic cases are used by Zapp works and also I believe EVERY lead acid battery manufacturer as well.  I believe the reason why metal cases are not used is because of being labor intensive plus they actually RUST over time which of course is not a good thing.

Of all the shipments received from China by BeUtilityFree they have not had a SINGLE case of a plastic case broken during shipment from China or to the customer from the LA , CA warehouse. Of course the misuse of a forklift can damage ANY type of cell case. Obviously Mr Blake miss quotes Mr D'Angelo because he would have never said such a thing knowing the excellent track record of plastic cases. Bottom line: Plastic cell "cans" are not as fragile as one would think. Besides they are only handled a few times before they end up on a battery rack where they can sit for up to 20 years or more.

Mr Blake, no need to have a "bad feeling" about plastic cases. Your feeling is not justified for the reasons mentioned above.

[BillBlake]

Nifeman,

Good to see you back in the 'Posting' saddle again.

"Diamond' John Mario D'Angelo wrote me dozens of times - over time.
It a love / hate deal wid old Bill.

Must I dig up the email where he says I may need a little glue to fix a case once in
a while because the new cases are weaker?

The metal cases had a lot of advantages. One was the fact that they could take the heat
better for the 'in situ' reconditioning method if someone wanted to give it a whirl.
Two was you could bang it with a brick. And on and on.

Zapp Works told me that they used the 'Edison Boiling' Method (See Patent)
as you would expect
since they were doing a total tear down and new hardware.

However they did develop their own 'Reverse Charging' in situ method for their own
rebuilt cells for people that might accidentally run them dry.

You knows how Ni-Fe Cells suck water like it going out of style.
The devils.

Give up a little inside info (since your so close to 'Diamond John)
to the group
and I'll dig the Secret in situ Ni-Fe Clean-up Method out of storage for you
and all of humanity :-)

Zapp Works put how many thousand Plates they re-did (Positive or Negative)
in writing to old Bill but I don't see what difference it makes other than that they are
The King's of the rebuild deal now and for all time.

In other words The Best There Is,
ever was or ever will be :-)

Who is the NEW Chinese Ni-Fe Salesman equivalent?
The Best There Is.

Brandon Williams the former back-stabin BUF sales manager
of Rip-Off Reports fame ??
Ha ha ha. :-)

This thing kill me sometimes 


Bill Blake

[BillBlake]

Changhong Batteries has come up with some new Nickel Iron goodies
in their new Literature.
See the 2 Downloads:

http://www.changhongbatteries.com/Ni..._m3.3_g47.html

They also came up with:

http://www.changhongbatteries.com/Ni-Fe_battery_for_Solar_&_wind_appliances_pm53_m3.3_g47.html

Same game but there may be a little somethin, somethin different said if you look
good enough.

What strikes old Bill the most is for the first time I know of they fess up to using
Graphite in the Ni-Fe Cells. This is big.
Then you still have Cobalt and Copper additives as well.
I (think) they had mentioned Graphite with Ni-Cd in the past.

'Changhong and the Electric Indian' also finally fesses up to other Problems
to be looking for in the Electrolyte
besides just the Carbonates.
I was kind of ahead of the curve on that one.

It looks like they may have changed the attachment mechanics of the Plates a tad,
(perhaps) for the better.

See their new and improved
Interior View of the Nickel Iron Cell.

Mr. Edison's Magic In situ Renovation Process of 1904 talked about needing that
Graphite to work his magic - (or at least it kind of sounded that way).
A person would need to take a real interest and talk with some real Pro Chemists
about all that.

Then several months later after Mr. Edison had to close his Battery Factory down in shame
and he disowned the Graphite because it was causing too many problems.

I ran out of time for the project and let it go but this Graphite thing might be big
in the right hands.

Changhong is back to the 1/2 measure of Lithium Hydroxide to save money.

I do like how they lay the Nickel Iron Battery Electrolyte Mixing Instructions
out better than ever before.

As usual if you run a $20,000 Ni-Fe bank into the ground because you bought into
some fool Sales Pitch or lies they tell you
expect it to cost you $20.00 per cycle or more
until the batteries are shot.

Don't worry about Electrolyte changes because you can ruin them
so fast you will probably never get that far.

Of coarse that's just the people making them talking -
so who are they :-)

If you treat them like they were expensive Lead Acid Batteries, check the Electrolyte
and change it every 2 to 3 years that $20 (or so) per Cycle may wind up costing
less than $3 per cycle plus the cost of tending to the batteries.

Then you get into Lost interest, unknown inflation costs on replacing LA Cells
and whatever, whatever.

Guess the big question is when, if ever, the Edison Nickel Iron Rejuvenation Method
will come true. Perhaps after 110 years someone will get on it.
That and get a handle on that LiOH problem and the Ni-Fe game may really wake up.

Bill Blake

[Mike]

Hi Bill, just like to mention, I found some old "DEAC" cells on the dump, tipped out the slush in them and replaced the electrolyte, they work well now . These cells must be over 50 years old and though I've never done a capacity test on them they seem to hold their charge well and take a charge fast and cool.

I also have seen the Edison car running on it's Edison cells and their age is enough to convince me that these cells -- treated with respect will indeed last longer that three sets of lead/acid of the same capacity.
If you're interested  my post and pix at the end of this page ----  http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5389&KW=NiFe&PN=0&TPN=4

Cheers

Mike

[BillBlake]

Hi Bill, just like to mention, I found some old "DEAC" cells on the dump, tipped out the slush in them and replaced the electrolyte, they work well now . These cells must be over 50 years old and though I've never done a capacity test on them they seem to hold their charge well and take a charge fast and cool.

I also have seen the Edison car running on it's Edison cells and their age is enough to convince me that these cells -- treated with respect will indeed last longer that three sets of lead/acid of the same capacity.
If you're interested  my post and pix at the end of this page ----  http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5389&KW=NiFe&PN=0&TPN=4

Cheers

Mike

Hi Mike, The old Edison NiFe Cells are getting mighty hard to come by now in the USA.

When you do see some on ebay occasionally they can want BIG money now.

The charts, etc. are from Changhong Batteries of China who I sometimes
jokingly call

'Changhong and The Electric Indian'.

Their PhD Battery Doctor laughed so I guess a little fun is OK.
I think fairly highly about that Company.

There is a new USA Ni-Fe player talking

The Biggest Game in the History of Storage Batteries.

They been talkin it for years now however Great things can take a Long time.

If they are finally ready I want to see how long it is before the Binders and other

foreign ingredients begin 'The Edison Syndrome' of destruction at the hands of

dat nasty 'Lye Type' electrolyte.

Here is a thread that got started about the devils :-)

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?15302-Nickel-Iron-Batteries-US-produced


Bill Blake

[thirteen]

I believe there is a Nife battery company in Dillion, Mt It was there a couple of years ago.  I believe they recycled old Edison batteries. 1 don't remember their name for sure but I think it was Zappe Batteries. Or close to that name. 13