Deep Well Issues...

[birdhouse]

hello all-
i recently bought another 20 acres to my off grid place.  brings my total to 40acres.  now it's time to start thinking about barbed wiring the place and drilling a well. 

my neighbor drilled a well last year and drilled to 420' but hit water at 360'  not sure exactly of his pump depth.  he is about 1mile away, and on the other (south) side of the ridge.  elevation is 4,000 ft.  about 50 miles due east of mt adams, WA. 

i run a 24v system, and have already realized a new inverter is in the works.  i run  a prosine 1800 now, but will probably upgrade to an outback 3500w pure sine unit in the near future.  i have wind and solar feeding a 450Ah 24v bank.  it rarely gets drawn down to even 24.2v. 

i've already tossed the idea of having an on demand pump with 110v at those depths, but if anyone know of a solution let me know.  there is the xantrax T240 transformer to run 240v pumps, but it isn't cheap, and has standby watt usage, and is another thing to keep after, and pay for. 

i know that a grundfos SQflex will work at those depths.  i could either power it from my inverter, or a few panels, or a genset.  i could then pump it into lets say a 1000 gal storage tank, and use a small on demand pump (with pressure tank) for direct use. 

problem is, those SQflex pumps are 1800 bucks!!!  plus controller boxes if run direct from solar. 

i'm just trying to wrap my mind around this whole scenario, and would very much appreciate any thoughts/wisdom/ideas/ect. 

anyone own a deep well drilling rig near south/central washington?  i'd make it worth your time! 

adam

[madlabs]

Adam,

I've played with a few SQ flex pumps, and you can run 'em directly off solar panels, no controller needed. Only thing is it won't shut itself off if you run the well dry and things like that. But my buddy has been pumping his well with just a few panels and a switch for a several years now. And he uses a lot of water on his little mini farm.

Also, I have run one from a cheesy 1000 watt inverter too, no start up surge issues. And that inverter is a complete wimp.

Jonathan

[bart]

    Hi Adam.
 Used to live in the greater Seattle area and that is some beautiful country where your at.
A few notes on our experience on our well.
   We have a shared well between me and pop. I'm about 300' from the well house and there is a noticeable difference in water temp. from season to season.
 The well is 420' deep and originally pump was set around 350'. Had to be lowered about 3 years later when it started sucking air. They dropped it as low as they could. But we are surrounded by neighbors on 5 - 40 acre plots, all on wells. Wish now that it was deeper.
   Lighting a few times has taken out the start and run caps to the 1 1/2 hp 230v pump. Now keep spares on top of relay box.
Built a well house next to the well, modeled after my grandfathers, using 10" walls and r-30 insulation. Never freezes. Has the expansion tank, shut off valves, shelves for stuff You don't want to freeze or need to keep cool.
   Really don't like the 30 gal, spun fiberglass tank with bladder. Not enough capacity and I think the bladders leaking. had to add air to it about 3 months and think its flat again. The old well, 90' deep, just had a galvanized steel tank on it and it worked better. Did start getting rust out of it, but that was after 40 + years.

[hydrosun]

Unless you really want to pump a lot of water i'd go with the grundfos 5SQ  series of pumps. I have a 1/3 hp pump at 150 feet into a pressure tank that works great. I paid les than $500 a7 years ago. I t has a slow start so it doesn't draw much power from the inverter ( now a Outback 2524 but originally it was run on  a DR2424) I just looked up and that serof pumps can work down to 700 feet. If you need more water you can move up to the 10SQ series but I'mnot sure which ones can work on 115 volts. The SQflex pumps may be great for lots of water hooked directly to a solar array but are expensive and doesn't always match how much water is needed so you may be wasting either power or water. An on demand pump just pumps the water that is needed. At my depth I figure each gallon takes about 2 watt/hours into a 50psi tank. So unless you are pumping large amounts of water it is a small load on a full solar system. 
I've had to replace on at least two other systems the large 2 hp pumps the well driller put in with the smaller 115 volt grundfoss so the offgrid owner didn't have to start the generator  each time he wanted water. I know one different on grid grundfos pump that had over 250000 gallons pumped and still going strongSo for price, ability to run on 115 volts, and a proven track record I'd reconmend the Sq series pumps.
Chris

[Off grid in Tonopah]

I've been off grid here in the AZ desert for 8 years now with a 500ft deep well and what works well for me is I had a standard 240v deep well pump installed by the driller and pump to a 2500 gal storage tank. From there I used a 115 v demand pump used for higher end RVs. This worked great for about 4 years but made noise in the house piping. So I upgraded to a small 115v pressure pump and tank and it runs the house just fine. (Northern Catalog)
   I run the deep well pump on my diesel gen when I do the big load work around the house like laundry day , equalizing batteries or doing some welding or such, usually once a week. This pumps up the storage tank. This way the deep well pump only gets cycled once or twice a week not multi times a day as if it were pumping to a pressure tank as is normal. My deep pump probably cycles less times in a year than some setups do in a week. The small pressure pump runs off the inverter and supplies the house.
   I like the set up as it lets me monitor my water use and can spot waste or unusual use easier. Also better use of the diesel as it gives me a high load when it's running.

[birdhouse]

thanks for all the thoughts!  sorry for the delayed response.  i'm still getting used to the "recent topics" vs "recent posts" part of the site at the bottom of the main page.  i hadn't realized anyone responded 'til this morning. 

so i looked into the grundfos 5SQ/SQE series.  the largest they offer for 120v is the 180 model.  it pumps to a max of ~320' with almost no flow at that depth.  i don't think that is going to work. 

the more i look into it, i doubt i'm gonna be able to go with an all in one pump that will hit those depths, supply the usage, have the pressure needed, and run on 120v.  there's just a hard HP limit for 120v that no manufacturers seem to want to go past.    i'm really leaning towards a 240v pump that runs off a genset into a buried storage tank.  then use a smaller pressure pump and tank to get the on demand portion from the buried tank.   

the grundfor 10SQ 330 (240v) will pump to ~510' with almost no flow, and at 475' it get 6GPM, and at 360' it gets 11 GPM.  i'm a little scared to look at the pricing on such a model though! 

it gets below 0 degrees F at my place, so i think the top of the well may be put below grade with a super insulated roof to use some ghetto geo thermal to keep things from freezing.  then i worry about surface run off flooding the "root cellar".  guessing i'll have to dig some diversion ditches to keep that water out.  maybe a couple of sets of "V"s uphill from the well dug out.  maybe a super insulated shed might do it, but i have my doubts about that!  it will hit -25F up there sometimes, though rarely. 

offgrid can be a big pain in the arse sometimes!  especially with deep wells in cold climates!

adam

[Frank S]

I don't see why you don't install a windmill for pumping your water to the surface a pump- jack could also be installed and it could even have an engine or an electric motor for time when there was no wind
 if you simply must have some pressure mount the storage tank about 30 ft high or mount it low and use a small electric pump to a pressure tank
 Windmills can raise water from 1200 feet or more depending on the model  and in shallow wells can lift as much as 250 tons of water per hour
 There are still a few companies in the US who make windmills the aeromotors and pumps
 I know of one in Texas and one in CA but the largest is in Asia

[birdhouse]

thanks frank!

i already got a quote from aermotor...  $11,500 for a 12 footer with a 30' tower to pump from those depths.

for that kind of money, i could install big boy grundfos SQflex pump and a 2KW array to power it, and still have ~4K left over to put towards another project. 

i suppose i could build portions of the water pumping turbine.  the tower wouldn't be all that difficult.  i just struggle to find time for those types of projects...

i'm hoping to get a pumping system together for 2-4K. 

adam

[Frank S]

Adam; it's too bad this wasn't brought up 8 months ago because there was a 702 with a 35 ft tower and an 8 ft fan for sale in Wala Wala for less than 3 grand not all that difficult to make the sail larger 

[madlabs]

Adam,

One thing you haven't said is how much water per day you think you are going to use. You may not need a very high GPM when you think about it. I have a small well pump that gives me about 2.2 GPM. That's about 132 gallons/hour. I have a pretty big sized garden and use plenty of water for other stuff too, and I find that 2.2gpm is more than enough to cover my needs. Of course, I have a 2500 gallon tank to buffer the system.

Jonathan

[bart]

   If I may borrow your thread  to ask a semi relevant question,
For those of you large capacity tanks above ground, what do you do when it gets colder?
Run a small pump all the time?

[birdhouse]

frank-  bummer on the time of asking! 

jonathon-  water per day is almost a non issue.  it's a vacation place.  with a large buffer tank, even a .25GPM pump would probably be just fine.  when there's a bunch of us up there, we may go through a max of 700 gallons in a long weekend.  this is all for a cabin that has been yet to be built, so it's hard to say. 

bart-  i already have a 1550 gallon plastic tank that sits above ground for rainwater collection.  i don't leave a pump in it during the cold weather.  it'll freeze rock solid in the winter without issue...  though i obviously can't use the water during those times either. 

adam

[hydrosun]

Since you don't use very much water it's still possible to use a 5SQ  240 volt pump with a small transformer off  of ebay installed after the pressure switch to avoid standby power use. ust get the pump head that's designed for your depth, find out it's wattage and get a transformer rated just higher. since the motor has a slow start the surge is low. you could then pump into a storage tank and a second pressure pump or put in a larger presure tank to cover the most water used at a time.
chris

[oneolddog]

Birdhouse,

     Shurflo makes a 24vdc deep well pump "SHURflo Submersible Solar Pump — 1/2in. Ports, 82 GPH, 24 Volt, Model# 9325-043-101"  available at most solar dealers and Northern tool.  Pump pushes 82gph from 230 depth.  Check with your neighbor to see where his static water level is.  usually it is way higher up than where you hit water.  Example:  my well hit water at 345 ft.  My static level is 117 ft.  82 gph isn't going to irrigate a large garden every day but, it will give you adequate water for household daily use.  Example:  we have 10,000 sq.ft. of garden plus a 3000 sq.ft. lawn.  We pump 1000 gallons a day in the summer.

[BigBreaker]

Since your usage is so low why not use rainwater?  You already have/need storage.  So just invest in excellent filtration and UV sterilization.   For this amount of usage you could even RO the rainwater for drinking / showers / etc.

As I hear it Washington state gets a lot of water.  You might want to make sure the roofing material doesn't foul the water (asphalt might?).

[BigBreaker]

I just read that Washington state owns the rain that falls on your roof so I guess raiwater collection is technically illegal.  That's about the dumbest thing I've heard today.