Author Topic: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array  (Read 17345 times)

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NIFEinME

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Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« on: February 14, 2013, 04:26:28 PM »
Hello, I'm hoping for some input on my restoration attempt of a string of Edison C6 cells.

The cells themselves are set up in a string of 10 (nominally 12 volt), and were manufactured in the early 50s.  Their prior use was unknown.

To recondition them, I have purged the electrolyte and flushed the cells with distilled water until draining them runs clean.  I then replaced the electrolyte with a fresh batch mixed to 1.25 SG.  I topped the electrolyte solution with float oil (from BeUtilityFree).

I have charged/discharged the string several times.  I measure AmpHour use with a Trimetric AH meter.  I use a series of DC lightbulbs which draw about 45amps to discharge.

The literature specifies that C6 cells should charged and discharged at 67.5 amps.  The C/5 rate is specified as 337.5 AmpHours.

The charger I have used thus far is a Schumaker rolling fleet charger capable of charging this array at about 18 volts and about 20 amps, but not more without going into thermal shutdown.

Thus far my results of discharge tests have been about 50 Amphours at best.  I am wondering if that is as good as I should expect.  Only ~15% of rated capacity is rather disappointing.

Someone knowledgeable with Edison cells told me that the internal resistance of these cells is too great for a 20amp charge to fully recondition/restore them to maximum capacity (minus whatever age derating is evident after maximizing their available capacity after restoration).

Does anyone feel that adding a higher current capacity charger would yield better results? I have compensated for the lower available amps by extending the boost charging time to an equivalent number of watt-hours (over 24 hours charge time!).

If the concensus is that a more powerful charger would make a difference, would anyone recommend a good charger for this purpose?

I am temped to go with an Outback VFX3524 (as I have enough spare cells to make a 20 cell array), as that would be a good inverter/charger for my end use -- but I am open to a cheaper interim solution to prove out the capability of my cells.  I am somewhat constrained with the AC available in my current location.  I am running my charger from a 100amp subpanel with only 120volts service available.  Thus, an old forklift battery charger (my original idea) may not be feasible.

Any thoughts welcome!


Thanks.

dnix71

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2013, 08:26:22 PM »
If these are the set that sold on eBay late last year, they look like a forklift battery, hence the 'high' discharge amp rating.

I kind of believe they didn't work as advertised when new, that's why they were set aside. Nickel iron isn't noted for high amp discharge. They need to be charged slowly and discharged slowly. They are resistant to vibration and charge/discharge abuse, but don't perform as well as lead acid under heavy load. Adding lithium makes them work better.

A lot depends on what you intend to use them for. 337.5 AH wasn't much to begin with, but if they sat for decades you will need to cycle them daily and watch the water. After 50 cycles if they don't come up, they probably won't. There is a reason they don't find common use now. They are fairly non-toxic, so if they were cost effective they would be more common.

NIFEinME

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2013, 09:00:39 AM »
Hi dnix, thanks for your response.

These are not from Ebay late last year, but they may very well be from a forklift application.

I don't have much invested in them, and got them hoping to restore them and put them into service at a remote cabin as electric storage for solar panels.  Their characteristics make them a better suited to a marine environment that regularly gets below zero Fahrenheit and sits untended for months at a time.  My intention would be to simply disconnect them for the season each winter.

Here are the original specs of the C6 cells, you can judge for yourself amp discharge capacity. 

Type of Cell                                                       C6   
Cells in Array                                                     10
Amperes Normal Charge and Discharge Rate    67.5   
Ampere Hour Capacity Normal Rate                  337.5
Proper Level Above Plates in Inches                 1
Hours Normal Charge                                        7
Hours Normal Discharge                                    5
Pounds Renew Solution for One Cell                 6.47
Cell Discharge Voltage                                      1.2
Cell Charge Voltage                                          1.85
Nominal Discharge Voltage                               12
Nominal Charge Voltage                                   18.5
Array Watt Hour Discharge Rate                       810
Array Watt Hour Charge Rate                           1248.75   
Array Watt Hours for Full Discharge                  4050   
Array Watt Hours for Full Charge                      8741.25   
Array Amp Hours for Full Charge                       472.5   
Array amp Hours for Discharge                         337.5

These figures were taken from various Edison literature I have tracked down, and some calculations I have made based upon those figures.

I am hopeful that PeterDe or someone who as hands on experience restoring Edison's can chime in and help set proper expectations for me.  In the article he wrote about restoring Edison cells he talks about "de-rating" the batteries, but it was not clear to me how to apply that de-rating to my case to set reasonable expectations for performance.

I am also hopeful that someone with more charger knowledge than I can help direct me to an appropriate charging solution, either for a 10 cell, 12 volt array or for a 20 cell, 24 volt array.


Thanks.



dnix71

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2013, 05:58:56 PM »
Look at your numbers. Modern nominal 12v systems assume lead acid chemistry. Those rest at 12.6 to 13. One more cell in the array and it would behave much more like lead acid when discharged. But look at the charge value of 1.85v/cell. That makes the array of even 10 cells unusable in a 12v nominal system. You will burn out connected equipment long before you get to 18.5 volts. On a forklift this isn't a problem because you have to disconnect the battery connection to the lift to charge it.

Nickel iron is also prone to thermal runaway at the end of charge because the internal cell resistance drops so low.

Edison's batteries require either a voltage regulator to protect connected equipment during recharge, or the stack must be disconnected during recharge. That's the main reason why Edison's cells are not used much.

NIFEinME

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2013, 02:28:02 PM »
Hi dnix, thanks for your response.

I started this thread to solicit help in the restoration of Edison cells.  I simply want to emphasize that intention before getting too far afield addressing your observations.

I understand your points about utilizing NiFe arrays (restored or new, Edison or modern manufacture).  My expectation for how I would put this array into use would not have any electronics connected to the array other than that inverter and charger.  The arrray would serve AC loads only -- connected through the inverter.

Looking over the Outback product line I see that the range of charger/inverters will equalize charge up to 17v (what Edison literature calls "Boost-Charging", and what I believe I need to do to restore them), and the MX series of charge controllers will accommodate a wide array of charging voltages.  From what I've seen of other manufacturer spec's it seems this is industry standard.

As long as I don't have any DC equipment connected the the array other than the inverter/charger and the charge controller, I don't think this should be a concern.  However, I'd love to hear if I have overlooked something fundamental.

Good point on the thermal runaway -- the battery temperature sensors and custom charge profiles should be handy when/if this array does go into service.

I'm still hoping to hear from anyone with hands on experience restoring Edison cells.  I hope you are out there and can find time to reply!


Thanks.

gww

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2013, 03:45:13 PM »
couple of thread on the below site that you might look at.

http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?16120-Compare-Nickel-Iron-Edison-Batteries-and-Chinese-Ni-Fe-Cells

Hope this helps
gww

NIFEinME

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2013, 03:47:30 PM »
Thanks gww,

That is actually me posting on that thread to solicit answers to the same questions.


Thanks.

dnix71

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2013, 05:24:45 PM »
I'll leave this here and then go away. Edison recommended charging to 1.85v/cell. Modern resellers recommend 1.65v/cell or even less.

Now ask yourself why? Has inorganic chemistry changed? Was the inventor of the cell dumb? I think not. Edison knew exactly what he was doing. When you charge nickel iron to that voltage there is electrolysis in the cell. In a lead acid cell, that's okay, because the cell can be sealed and the oxygen and hydrogen recombined in a calcium catalyst disk. Edison's cell can't be sealed because the oxygen has no where to go.

From Wikipedia:

The action which takes place in an Edison cell, both in charging and discharging, is a transfer of oxygen from one electrode to the other, or from one group of plates to the other, hence this type of cell is sometimes called an oxygenlift cell. In a charged cell the active material of the positive plates is superoxidized, and that of the negative plates is in a spongy or deoxidized state

That means the hydrogen gas produced can sponge into the metal plates but the oxygen must be vented. Hydrogen sponges into many metals, but into nickel it goes fairly well. Nickel-hydrogen catalysts are used in organic chemistry a lot. The hydrogen on the nickel plates raises the cell potential and energy storage capacity of the cell. That was good for Edison, but it raises the maintainance requirements and cost of owning/using a nickel-iron battery.

The electrolyte is KOH and LiOH (caustic lye). CO2 in the air not only neutralizes the electrolyte, it creates carbonate scale that pollutes the cell. That means if you follow Edison's charging advice, you must water the battery after each charge and the water must be distilled and deionized. Because the cell cannot be sealed, there is also a layer of mineral oil added to cover the electrolyte to prevent spoilage.

If you want the stated amp-hours out of a real Edison battery you have to do it Edison's way. The modern resellers of this battery willfully ignore his recommendations because it means you don't have to water the battery so much. They are dishonest. If technology that old has been largely abandoned it's because something else was found that works much better.

Lithium iron phosphate is non-flammable and has a cell potential of 3.2v at rest, literally double that of Edison's. It is also not toxic and lightweight.


NIFEinME

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2013, 05:54:09 PM »
Thanks dnix, I appreciate your input -- lots of great info.  I certainly hope that you continue to contribute to this thread if/when we get some contributions from folks with hands-on Edison cell experience.  Though I must say, it certainly feels like you are trying to talk me out of restoring these for some reason.

My experience with these cells certainly corroborates your description of the chemistry.  I have covered the refreshed electrolyte with a layer of mineral oil for exactly the reasons you state, and find that I do need to water the batteries after every boost/equalization charge I give them.

I have no direct experience with modern NiFe cells, only the Edison string I have.  My only interest here is restore this string if possible, and put it into service.  Since I got the cells for nominal sum, I could save myself the enormous cost of new LA storage batteries for my application.  I'd like to be able to put the savings into the balance of the system.  Other than the fun of the experience, and the knowledge gained, that is my only dog in this hunt.

I certainly don't mind an unusual charging profile, and some additional maintenance to save myself the expense, and to use a technology that is better suited to the harsh conditions of the remote site I have in mind.

I still hope for some input from those with direct experience to help guide me here.


Thanks.




BillBlake

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 06:27:16 AM »
Thanks dnix, I appreciate your input -- lots of great info.  I certainly hope that you continue to contribute to this thread if/when we get some contributions from folks with hands-on Edison cell experience.  Though I must say, it certainly feels like you are trying to talk me out of restoring these for some reason.

My experience with these cells certainly corroborates your description of the chemistry.  I have covered the refreshed electrolyte with a layer of mineral oil for exactly the reasons you state, and find that I do need to water the batteries after every boost/equalization charge I give them.

I have no direct experience with modern NiFe cells, only the Edison string I have.  My only interest here is restore this string if possible, and put it into service.  Since I got the cells for nominal sum, I could save myself the enormous cost of new LA storage batteries for my application.  I'd like to be able to put the savings into the balance of the system.  Other than the fun of the experience, and the knowledge gained, that is my only dog in this hunt.

I certainly don't mind an unusual charging profile, and some additional maintenance to save myself the expense, and to use a technology that is better suited to the harsh conditions of the remote site I have in mind.

I still hope for some input from those with direct experience to help guide me here.


Thanks.

In todays dollars Mr. Edison and his gang had hundreds of millions in experience $$

Just the Ni-Fe Submarine WAR BATTERY alone had millions in research and development
in early 1900's dollars.

This was AFTER all the many years, hundreds of thousands of man hours and big dollars had already been put into the traditional Edison Ni-Fe battery.

I saw today that you asked over at the Wind-Sun forum to hear from me in the
Compare thread.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=3&gs_ri=psy-ab&gs_mss=Compare%20Nick&pq=compare%20nickel-iron%20edison%20batteries%20with%20chinese%20n-fe%20cells&cp=40&gs_id=9o&xhr=t&q=Compare%20Nickel-Iron%20Edison%20Batteries%20and%20Chinese%20N-Fe%20Cells&es_nrs=true&pf=p&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&oq=Compare+Nickel-Iron+Edison+Batteries+and+Chinese+N-Fe+Cells&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42553238,d.dmg&fp=17efb8a1cdd7c58b&biw=1006&bih=502

All I can tell you is rather than be in Search of a Lost Chord only listening to results with a few wore out Ni-Fe Cells
also take advantage of the large amount of knowledge found in Edison's Patents.
The man spells it right out for you. The problems. Why? What to do about it.

Those guys were not sweetboys and I doubt they wanted to tell Anyone ANYTHING.
They HAD to talk in order to get the Patents. The Lawyers and Witnesses HAD to swear to it.
It HAD to be right or someone would do Time if it was proven they deliberately
Lied to Uncle Sam.

Rutgers University has a whole Department on Edison. They even have an Edison Doctor
who gets right back to you if there is a good question. Just don't abuse the privilege :-)

Bill Blake
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 07:12:41 AM by BillBlake »

NIFEinME

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2013, 11:17:03 AM »
Hi BillBlake, thanks very much for the reply.

I have read all the patents I can get my hands on.  I have also read, multiple times, the submarine battery report, and the Army battery manual, along with all the other various Edison battery literature I have found online.

I was hoping that you would join this discussion, as you had made mention (on the very thread you linked) of the "1904 reconditioning method" as well as many 'magic' tricks the old timers had for restoring these.  Would you be so kind in pointing me to any specific info you have of these?  If it is easier for you to attach files, I'd be happy to PM you email address. . .whatever works best for you.

Thanks also for the advice about Rutgers library.

By the way, the conversation on the other thread continues to help me understand what is going on as well.


Thanks.

BillBlake

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2013, 07:01:44 PM »
Hi BillBlake, thanks very much for the reply.

I have read all the patents I can get my hands on.  I have also read, multiple times, the submarine battery report, and the Army battery manual, along with all the other various Edison battery literature I have found online.

I was hoping that you would join this discussion, as you had made mention (on the very thread you linked) of the "1904 reconditioning method" as well as many 'magic' tricks the old timers had for restoring these.  Would you be so kind in pointing me to any specific info you have of these?  If it is easier for you to attach files, I'd be happy to PM you email address. . .whatever works best for you.

Thanks also for the advice about Rutgers library.

By the way, the conversation on the other thread continues to help me understand what is going on as well.


Thanks.

ME Man,

Go ahead and Post the 1904 Edison In Situ Ni-Fe Cell Reconditioning Process Patent
along with your interpretation of the method.

We can all look at it piece by piece - all at da same time - and see why this subject can be so deep.

Keep in mind that the only Ni-Fe Cells that I have owned were Russian so I might not be able
to understand what 'His Excellency' and his gang were actually trying to say :-)

We will worry about dis one FIRST before moving on to The Secrets of The Ancients - and the KW Kid   ::)   :o

Bill Blake

NIFEinME

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2013, 07:57:47 PM »
Hi Bill, an interesting approach to say the least.

I believe the patent you are referring to can be found here. 

http://www.google.com/patents?id=-wJXAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA2#v=onepage&q&f=true

My interpretation of this is is pretty simple.  Connect both terminals together and dump a standard charge into both for 10 to 30 hours, using the case (if it is metal like Edison cells are) as the anode (aka opposite polarity terminal). 

This produces hydrogen bubbling and heats the batteries and solution significantly (the patent states to just below the boiling point, whatever that may be).  Apparently the heat and hydrogen bubble action forces the various impurities out of the nickle oxide plates (the presence of which impurities has caused the decrease in capacity) and also out of the iron oxide plates so that those impurities are not subsequenty passed to the positive nickel oxide plates.

Then replace the electrolyte with a fresh batch and give it a forming/boost charge.

I am curious to hear if anyone here has actually tried this approach.

Thanks for drawing my attention to this patent Bill.  Thoughts?



BillBlake

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2013, 11:34:48 PM »
Hi Bill, an interesting approach to say the least.

I believe the patent you are referring to can be found here. 

http://www.google.com/patents?id=-wJXAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA2#v=onepage&q&f=true

My interpretation of this is is pretty simple.  Connect both terminals together and dump a standard charge into both for 10 to 30 hours, using the case (if it is metal like Edison cells are) as the anode (aka opposite polarity terminal). 

This produces hydrogen bubbling and heats the batteries and solution significantly (the patent states to just below the boiling point, whatever that may be).  Apparently the heat and hydrogen bubble action forces the various impurities out of the nickle oxide plates (the presence of which impurities has caused the decrease in capacity) and also out of the iron oxide plates so that those impurities are not subsequenty passed to the positive nickel oxide plates.

Then replace the electrolyte with a fresh batch and give it a forming/boost charge.

I am curious to hear if anyone here has actually tried this approach.

Thanks for drawing my attention to this patent Bill.  Thoughts?

ME Man,

My thought is this is not that awfully Long of a Patent for being as 'Heavy Duty' as it is.

Who has the 'Good' Adobe Reader Software that can copy and paste the badboy so we
could pick at it a tad?

Why is it well over a Century of jive talk and other talk about this subject has not produced
this information for the average 'Ni-Fe Joe'  ?
I asks.

Are Hank and Stephen at Zapp Works genius's because they knew how to read and dissect
a few Edison Patents?
3 to be exact.

Thanks to that Company for a Lot of education incidentally.

Do you HAVE to own a few run down old Ni-Fe Cells to understand what da man
(His Excellency, Thomas A.)
is saying to us?
On Earth as it is in Heaven. :-)

These are a few thoughts - but remember I didn't buy a few Edison cells so I may not be
qualified to point any game changing things out -
according to 'the experts' like russ.

Even sitting on many dozens of detailed emails from many Top experts over a period of time
may not be worthy. You hear what gets said.

Better that you and others carry the ball for a while.   :o
The seeds were planted in the cryptic but fun past.
I'll just meekly chip in occasionally now, Bruce and others permitting.
A lot of ground was still left to cover.

It's your thread ... hit it !

Bill Blake



Flux

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2013, 05:00:16 AM »
I see many reports of these cells lasting near indefinitely but that is not my experience. Those we had at work managed about 25 years and our efforts to keep them going beyond that failed. I believe that co2 absorbtion from the air is a killer.

I also bought some ex military cells for a boat and they worked reasonably well for a while but also gave up, my guess is that they could have been 30 years old and had little use before I got them.

Unless you come up with some revolutionary method of recovering them I suspect the capacity you are getting is about as far as you are going to get. Unlike lead acid they don't seem to die completely but end up being very little use at the end of 30 years.

Flux

XeonPony

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2013, 11:23:46 AM »
Bill have you ever just got to the point clearly? In all your posts I am never sure if I am reading comedy or technical info.  I thought to point this out as it hurts how serious one will tend to take you.

As for batteries I like my wet cell NiCads like any electro-chemical system there are all ways trade offs in every corner, one must factor these into the whole portrait of the designed system to make up the short falls and take advantage of the over shoot.

NiCad and NiF will handle a bit more of intermittent abuse and recover better then Lead Acid.
Lead acid is more common and cheaper then the other two with a bit more charging efficiency
LiFePh is all round excellent but needs more complicated control circuitry ie battery management module for safety and is ungodly pricey

For a design stand point what is the nominal voltage window you need to work in, what will be the environmental parameters they must work in, what is the max instant discharge rate to be expected and how long, charge rate so on so what is the best? the one that will work!  life time is just a bonus!!
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

BillBlake

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2013, 06:06:14 PM »
Bill have you ever just got to the point clearly? In all your posts I am never sure if I am reading comedy or technical info.  I thought to point this out as it hurts how serious one will tend to take you.

As for batteries I like my wet cell NiCads like any electro-chemical system there are all ways trade offs in every corner, one must factor these into the whole portrait of the designed system to make up the short falls and take advantage of the over shoot.

NiCad and NiF will handle a bit more of intermittent abuse and recover better then Lead Acid.
Lead acid is more common and cheaper then the other two with a bit more charging efficiency
LiFePh is all round excellent but needs more complicated control circuitry ie battery management module for safety and is ungodly pricey

For a design stand point what is the nominal voltage window you need to work in, what will be the environmental parameters they must work in, what is the max instant discharge rate to be expected and how long, charge rate so on so what is the best? the one that will work!  life time is just a bonus!!

As far as I know old Bill was the first guy in Internet history to bring up Mr. Edison's Patents,
that were STRICTLY written about Restoring his Edison Ni-Fe Cells -

which happens to be the subject of this thread.

Until people can take the inventor himself serious and examine what he said -

rather than go round and round and round and round -

frankly I'm way out of time for the subject. Nothing personal.

Whether kidding a little or just stoned cold serious.

Bill Blake

AzSun

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2013, 02:49:10 PM »
Hi Bill, an interesting approach to say the least.

I believe the patent you are referring to can be found here. 

http://www.google.com/patents?id=-wJXAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA2#v=onepage&q&f=true

My interpretation of this is is pretty simple.  Connect both terminals together and dump a standard charge into both for 10 to 30 hours, using the case (if it is metal like Edison cells are) as the anode (aka opposite polarity terminal). 

This produces hydrogen bubbling and heats the batteries and solution significantly (the patent states to just below the boiling point, whatever that may be).  Apparently the heat and hydrogen bubble action forces the various impurities out of the nickle oxide plates (the presence of which impurities has caused the decrease in capacity) and also out of the iron oxide plates so that those impurities are not subsequenty passed to the positive nickel oxide plates.

Then replace the electrolyte with a fresh batch and give it a forming/boost charge.

I am curious to hear if anyone here has actually tried this approach.

Thanks for drawing my attention to this patent Bill.  Thoughts?

I'm going to try that. It is unlikely one can get the electolyte to near boiling with a standard charge rate.
I am thinking of placing the  cell in an electric roaster filled with water or glycol. I just pulled an Edison A10 off the shelf now.
It was one of the weaker ones when it was connected to the bank so should be a good canidate to see if there is any observable
difference after the test. It is charging now to determine the current capacity. It will be quite some time before the  test is set up,
but hope to get it done in the next few months.

NIFEinME

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2013, 02:54:39 PM »
Hi AzSun, that is awesome.  Thank you very much.  I am eager to hear your results.

A few questions for you, if you don't mind:

1. Have you found any cells that have a nominal zero voltage?  If so, do you see them showing some voltage when measuring from a terminal to the case?

2. Have you cut open any cells or otherwise seen a build up of deposits in the bottom of the can/case?

3. Have you rinsed out any of your cells?  If so, did you find that improved performance?


Great to have someone else doing some hands on experimentation!

I'll post my results as we go along as well.


Thanks.

AzSun

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2013, 05:44:04 PM »

Hi AzSun, that is awesome.  Thank you very much.  I am eager to hear your results.

A few questions for you, if you don't mind:

1. Have you found any cells that have a nominal zero voltage?  If so, do you see them showing some voltage when measuring from a terminal to the case?
   
    Only if the terminals were shorted for a long time. The one I started charging today was discharged and stored shorted over 6 months ago. It had less than
    2 millivolts upon jumper removal. I did not check voltage between case and terminals. It would be a good point of reference though. I plan on doing this
    upon the next discharge.

2. Have you cut open any cells or otherwise seen a build up of deposits in the bottom of the can/case?

    I did open one. The case was bulged from what I thought was freeze damage. Upon disassembly, it was clear the bulging was from pressurization due to a previously
    blocked fill hole. The plates were in good condition. There was a deposit of sludge about 1/4 inch deep just below the bottom of the plates. It was black, some of it's
    composition magnetic. The negative plates showed signs of iron dislodging ( violent overcharging damage ?) so I think the magnetic part of the sludge is from those
    plates. The other parts of it are likely from the rubber separators that are used within the cell. 

3. Have you rinsed out any of your cells?  If so, did you find that improved performance?

    The A10 cells hold a little less than a gallon of electrolyte. I did rinse them until clear. It takes 7 gallons of rinsing to clear it up. The electrolyte was over 30
    years old. I think the improvement in performance was mosly from the electrolyte change, not the sludge removal.


« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 05:51:32 PM by AzSun »

BillBlake

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2013, 03:48:27 AM »
Ni-Fe Cells has to be one of the more unusual scientific subjects of the last 100+ years
in a number of ways.

We have been through how twisted, selfish, scheming, etc., etc.

It's also a great 'Riddle Me This' ( or Riddle me Dis )
deal as you can tell if you read enough of Edison's Battery Patents.

Not only does it take 'Context Thinking' and the ability to be able to bridge knowledge
from one Patent to the next but Mr. Edison liked his game so much that I believe he
liked to build Riddles into the language of a single Patent from one piece of it to the next -
within the same document.

Can I get a witness?

This particular 1904  work being discussed
offers good clues but by itself may mean
very little to a final in situ solution.
I mean give me a break.

It's not actually talking about the SAME
Edison Ni-Fe Cells that the fellows in this thread are messing with -
is it !! People are too fast to see what old Bill sees.

I said what needed to be done. Someday when someone is willing to do the work we can
bridge to the next step AFTER a proper examination of this Patent
if I'm still around.

Always remember that Zapp Works reconditioned THOUSANDS of old Ni-Fe plates to better
than New Chinese Ni-Fe cells so there is
REALLY NO MAYBES About It.

Bill Blake


Frank S

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2013, 09:01:36 AM »
Bill for understanding the writings of MR Edison one should remember Oxford English of 1904 is hardly recognizable as the same language most people of today's society learn in the facilities being passed off as educational institutions.
  Even during the time of MR Edison the language had transmogrified into a morphism between  American slang and standard English.
 There fore in today's speak many of us encounter  MR Edison's semi modal verbs along with his objectively grammatical adverbs with great difficulty.
 Then again scholars are still dissecting the works of the late great William Shakespeare     
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

BillBlake

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2013, 10:44:55 AM »
Bill for understanding the writings of MR Edison one should remember Oxford English of 1904 is hardly recognizable as the same language most people of today's society learn in the facilities being passed off as educational institutions.
  Even during the time of MR Edison the language had transmogrified into a morphism between  American slang and standard English.
 There fore in today's speak many of us encounter  MR Edison's semi modal verbs along with his objectively grammatical adverbs with great difficulty.
 Then again scholars are still dissecting the works of the late great William Shakespeare     

To be (in focus) or not to be (in focus).  :o

Mr. Edison did not shut his Battery Factory down for several years starting in 1905
for his health.

The Ni-Fe Cell was redesigned for good reasons.
Who knows why?

We need to slow down and not just speed read through the short Patent.
Once we realize that was a different Ni-Fe set-up in 1904 - we can learn a few things from it
and bridge to the next step.

That will take some inside info from other experts as well as info from other Edison Patents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2L3g0cjbXM&feature=related

Bill Blake

Frank S

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2013, 11:36:27 AM »
 Bill It appears you may have linked the wrong video
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

NIFEinME

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2013, 03:42:29 PM »
Hello Folks, I wanted to provide an update for those who may be interested.

At present, I continue my charge and discharge cycles hoping to see an improvement in AH.  7 of the cells have renewed electrolyte (I made up enough for 10 in my last batch), and had to substitute 3 cells with electrolyte of unknown vintage when 3 cells ceased to function properly.  It is unknown why these 3 cells ceased to function properly.  My working hypothesis is that they became internally shorted during charge/discharge cycles.  I assume this based upon their near zero voltage readings (down from a nominal 1.2), inability to take a charge, and showing some voltage when reading from a terminal to the case (perhaps the sludge in the bottom has created a short between a plate and the case).

At any rate, here is my charging set-up:



Here is the set-up during a discharge, using a bank of DC lightbulbs as the load.  Note that all lightbulbs would draw about 45 amps, but I've chosen to scale back the load to 20-25 amps with half the bulbs being lit.



Here is my supply of cells.  I've cleaned them up by dipping them in gas to remove the Ebersol, wirebrushing them, and dremeling the tops. Note that each tag notes its voltage and specific gravity.  I sorted them into batches of voltage above 0.2 volts/SG above 0.1150, V>0.2/SG<0.1150, V<0.2/SG>0.1150, V<0.2/SG<0.1150 and a few empty cells with just voltage readings.  Based upon the manufacture codes these range in age from the late 1940's up to some with "Exide" stamps (somewhere in the '72 - '75 range presumably).



I've also made up a rig to restore the plates as per the Edison patent discussed earlier:



Here is it connected to three cells.  The plan is to attach the charger cathode to these terminal connectors, and the charger anode to a large ground wire binding the three cells together.  I will take temp readings, and if necessary place these cells in an insulated box during charging restoration.



I plan to experiment with this restoration treatment when I make up a new batch of electrolyte in early April.  I'll share my experiences and some more photos then.

Hoping to hear from anyone else out there following a similar path.


Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 04:19:48 PM by NIFEinME »

AzSun

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2013, 07:25:54 PM »
Nice update but all I see for all photos is a "minus" sign within a circle as below.

XeonPony

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2013, 08:46:16 PM »
his host deleated or removed the photos or disabled hyperlinking. they where really nice pictures while they lasted
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

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AzSun

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2013, 09:42:05 AM »
Voltage to the case is normal. All my Edison's read ~ .950 volts negative terminal to the case with the case being positive. Positive terminal to the case is ~ .440 volts with the case being negative. You probably have a short between the plates due to a piece of conductive crud. While separated by rubber rods, they are fairly close together. I've had 3 behave like yours. Two recovered after additional rinsing.

NIFEinME

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2013, 10:07:46 AM »
Those broken image links are a bummer, I'll get them fixed up when I get home after the weekend.

Thanks Azsun, the voltage I found the most strange was seeing a voltage from the case to terminal when there was zero voltage from terminal to terminal.  I agree that it is most likely a piece of crud connecting the plates.

I had sloshed out many cells, but I suspect that there is a good deal of gunk remaining in the bottom even after a good rinsing. . .would love to find a way to get it out.

Thanks.

AzSun

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2013, 11:33:06 AM »
The stuff in the bottom of the case is rather pasty. I use an electric engraving tool to vibrate it loose. After rinsing the cells to near PH neutral, fill the cell as high as possible with water so you can still shove a rubber cork in the filler hole, but minimize the air space. Invert the cell in a pan in case the cork pops out. If you use a long enough rubber plug, the weight of the cell resting on the cork will hold it in. (Remove cell cap) As the engraving tip will engrave the bottom of the cell, I place a small
10-32 nut on the case bottom first then place the engraver tip in the center of the nut. As there will still be some air in the top, lean the cell slightly to one side so you are
vibrating against solid water. Turn on the engraver and adjust to maximum surface vibration and move the tip around the whole surface. Do not vibrate the sides. There
are two thin rubber sheets between the end plates and the case that are brittle from age. They might break up from the vibration. I have found that when cutting apart a cell, nothing was deposited on the sides or top of the case anyway. I rinse the cells with low TDS reverse osmosis water from an undersink RO unit. After the last rinse,
fill it with distilled water and let it soak a few hours. Drain and fill with new electrolyte prepared with distilled water.

NIFEinME

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2013, 04:54:36 PM »
The stuff in the bottom of the case is rather pasty. I use an electric engraving tool to vibrate it loose. After rinsing the cells to near PH neutral, fill the cell as high as possible with water so you can still shove a rubber cork in the filler hole, but minimize the air space. Invert the cell in a pan in case the cork pops out. If you use a long enough rubber plug, the weight of the cell resting on the cork will hold it in. (Remove cell cap) As the engraving tip will engrave the bottom of the cell, I place a small
10-32 nut on the case bottom first then place the engraver tip in the center of the nut. As there will still be some air in the top, lean the cell slightly to one side so you are
vibrating against solid water. Turn on the engraver and adjust to maximum surface vibration and move the tip around the whole surface. Do not vibrate the sides. There
are two thin rubber sheets between the end plates and the case that are brittle from age. They might break up from the vibration. I have found that when cutting apart a cell, nothing was deposited on the sides or top of the case anyway. I rinse the cells with low TDS reverse osmosis water from an undersink RO unit. After the last rinse,
fill it with distilled water and let it soak a few hours. Drain and fill with new electrolyte prepared with distilled water.

Azsun, that is a great idea!

My head is swimming with ideas using this principle.  I made up a pipe clamp that pivots on a T piece.  I'm wondering now if I could use a stopper as you suggest, and an orbital sander as you suggest somehow coupled to the base and actually slosh as it vibrates. . .getting the solution splashing against the sludge as it is vibrated might increase the rate it gets knocked off the base.

Anyway, here are some pics.  I switched to dropbox realized dropbox is useless for this task and attached lower resolution pics.  Please let me know if anyone has trouble seeing them.  I'll throw in a few bonus shots ;)

Here is my charging set-up:




Here is the set-up during a discharge, using a bank of DC lightbulbs as the load. 




Here is my supply of cells.  I've cleaned them up by dipping them in gas to remove the Ebersol, wirebrushing them, and dremeling the tops. Note that each tag notes its voltage and specific gravity. 



Here is how the cells looked when I got them before a good cleaning:



and




I've also made up a rig to restore the plates as per the Edison patent discussed earlier:




Here is it connected to three cells.  The plan is to attach the charger cathode to these terminal connectors, and the charger anode to a large ground wire binding the three cells together.  I will take temp readings, and if necessary place these cells in an insulated box during charging restoration.




I'll post more as I go along.  As always, looking forward to any feedback and constructive criticism.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 05:02:06 PM by NIFEinME »

AzSun

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2013, 09:42:29 PM »
Nice lab you have there ! What are the specs on your battery charger ? I didn't have one so ended up making one
for single cell charging. I soon will be running the same test but need to wait until the snow melts. I am getting the last of Arizona snowmobiling in for the year.

AzSun

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Re: Advice on Restoring Edison Cell Array
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2013, 08:56:12 PM »
Using Edison Patent # 821,625 dated May 29, 1906... The electrolyte was heated to 200F. A charge of 20 - 30 amps was applied for 8-12 hours, I don't recall the exact length of time. The cell was then drained, rinsed with distilled water, and refilled with new electrolyte. Before doing this, an average load of 10 amps could be applied for 7 hours before reaching a voltage of 1.10  .   After applying the patent process, the same load would take 20 hours before reaching 1.1 volts. Thanks for the lead.
I wish I new about this a couple of years ago. Only 1 charge/discharge cycle has been applied so far.