Ethanol Plant

[electrondady1]

i signed and on line petition today to get gm food labelled as such.
it may be the greatest stuff since the discovery of fire but i should have the right to know if i am eating it or not
same as irradiated food, i want to stay away from that as well 

[ChrisOlson]

not sure about the link ......but how can you have a seed that actively poisons insects ?

The corn plant synthesizes a toxin, caused by inserting a gene from Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) into the corn genome.  When European Corn Borers or root worms eat the plant the toxin causes the formation of pores in their digestive tract and kills them.

It is WAAAAY more effective than the old way of polluting the environment with soil and foliar applied insecticides, as farmers did for more than 30 years before Bt corn came out.  In Bt corn there is no insect problems, period.  They chew on the plant and they die within an hour or two.

Despite the ravings and foaming at the mouth from various people who don't know what they're talking about, the toxin is totally harmless to humans, livestock and even non-target insects.  The only things it kills is caterpillars and worms that eat corn.  And further, these caterpillars and worms that eat corn have evolved over time BECAUSE of corn - it provided a food supply for them so their populations exploded all around the world.  They are otherwise not naturally occurring species.
--
Chris

[ChrisOlson]

i signed and on line petition today to get gm food labelled as such.

Well, I got news for ya'.

There is nothing, including the carrots and potatoes that you grow in your garden, that is not genetically modified.  There are a few wild plants (like blueberries, raspberries and apples) that may not be deliberately cross-bred by man to develop specific strains and traits.  Otherwise virtually everything you eat has been genetically engineered by man - even Idaho and Russet potatoes - all cultivars created by man - all selectively bred over the last 7,000-10,000 years for specific traits.

These people that start screaming "non-GMO" and "organic" don't have a freaking clue what they're screaming about.
--
Chris

[dbcollen]

There is a HUGE difference between selective breeding and gene splicing

[XeonPony]

There is a HUGE difference between selective breeding and gene splicing

other then time frame, Nope there isn't really one is just faster and gets ride of the messy in between stages.

[dbcollen]

Really? given enough time nature will add a chicken gene to a tomato?  Or make a soybean that produces pesticide?

Bull $#|+......

[Bruce S]

so is ordinary sweet corn you buy on the side of the road genetically messed up?
and sterile?

That's a question you'll need to ask the roadside stand owner.
BUT I would not be too surprised to find out it is indeed a hybrid.
Sorry

[ChrisOlson]

Really? given enough time nature will add a chicken gene to a tomato?  Or make a soybean that produces pesticide?

Yes, it will.  The only difference between gene splicing and evolution is time.  When Monsanto developed the Roundup Ready gene and put it in corn it was a great thing.  The corn could metabolize the glyphosate but weeds couldn't.  Spray the corn with Roundup and the corn survives and the weeds die.

It only took Mother Nature 18 generations to duplicate Roundup Ready in weeds and today we got many varieties of grasses and broadleaf weeds that are totally resistant to glyphosate herbicides - they developed the identical gene that was spliced into the corn genome.

You see, people don't realize that humans are just an animal that has survived and populated the planet by creating their own food supply.  If you don't believe me, I invite you to go into the middle of the woods, or middle of the swamp, or middle of the desert - I don't care where you go - and try to find some food to live on.  You will either instantly become totally carniverous and start killing animals to survive - or you will die.  Period.  That is because the food supply you depend on for your very survival is totally genetically engineered and cultivated by man.  You cannot survive on what you find in the true wild - except for meat.
--
Chris

[Bruce S]

ChrisO;
I am correct that you are talking about the general public, right?
There's a song about the rest of us. 

[ChrisOlson]

I am correct that you are talking about the general public, right?
There's a song about the rest of us. 

Actually, everybody.  If you drop a person off, I don't care who it is, in the middle of nowhere - say in Amazon jungle.  You drop them off there with nothing but the shirt on their back.  What are their chances of surviving it?  The jungle is full of food - but not much of it fit for humans.

You talk about plants that develop their own pesticides?  They are just about the only kind of plants there are in the jungle.  Plants that have developed toxins to keep from being eaten by insects and animals - and they are so poisonous and toxic some of them will kill humans by simply coming in contact with them.

I get a chuckle out of the City Slickers who think "organic" or non-GMO is "healthy".  LOL!  What a bunch of clueless slugs!
--
Chris

[XeonPony]

I all ways luaghed at the organic crowed as well, what a sweet scame that is! if only I had less integrity the money I could make off suckers! Damned sense of ethics!

Here on the sunshine coast you get full fast with all the wild edible plants and mushrooms just got to know how to identify em, then there is hunting as you need both!

[Isaiah]

You just haven realized yet that Monsanto has you coming and going. they control it all the pharmaceuticals   the fda and you they are the winners at this time.

[Frank S]

This post is not directed at any single person or persons but,I think we have strayed a bit from the ethanol plant that Chris O started this thread with but there has been a lot of interesting info posted none the less.
 And through what some may term as weird connections in one form or another it has all dealt with RE.
 Corn is without a doubt one of, if not the single most important alternative form of a renewable source of energy known today that humans can contribute in the making.
 We cannot contribute in making the wind (unless you count politicians) we cannot make the sunshine however we are learning how to use its energy more efficiently.
 We can and have   increased the productivity of corn which would not even exist had it not been for human intervention.
 Now some seem to want to cry OH! That BAD GMO stuff we need to stop doing that.
 Well I have this to say about that if you eat RICE or any product derived from rice that has been grown and sold commercially within the past many years, GUESS what? It is hybrid as well. The same goes for wheat, oats, barley, and just about any other grain product. Unless they were harvested from wild grasses they are hybrids some have been for 1000s of years as well.
 I had a friend in Washington who had an apple tree with 7 varieties of apples growing n it He had done this through graphing or budding .
If you want to stray into meat products.  Pork is the most widely eaten meat in the world accounting for over 36% of the world meat intake. It is followed by poultry and beef with about 33% and 24% respectively fish& other sea foods #4 However for some reason many do not consider fish and sea food as meat I'm not sure how that is done since if it has blood and muscles system to me it is meat, but most of these with the exception of fish, have little resemblances to what they were 2, 3, 4 or even 5000 years ago,
 To get to the point, if a food product is grown or raised by humans for human consumption, it has been genetically altered at one time or another, either by ancient means of selective selection, cross pollination. Or more modern manipulation
 If we don't' like it fine lets eat our own foot OH wait! We can't even do that because even humans are a genetic alteration.
   For giggles and grins Try helping a daughter through 6 years of entomology/agronomy and human bio-molecular studies then spend the next umpteen years receiving one thesis draft after another while you fill Hard drive after hard drive researching the validity or viability of the direction she is heading. it is enough to drive any insane person to almost believe in sanity   

[niall2]

interesting explanation Chris....i guess we have to trust the scientists will get it right 100% of the time every time

i have my doubts about regulation though...its not that long that feed producers (research scientists ?) here thought feeding cattle with , well..some added dead cattle protein ...was a good idea , that did,nt work out well...

theres always some "research" company that wants to bend the rules.....but if the government regulation is 100% and transparent i guess ok

but being a sad skeptic i just dont trust government .... ...all those horse/bute burgers i ate are kicking in now     

 

[Harold in CR]

 Did anyone watch the video that Chris put on the thread ? Having done the Silage Pit thing, growing a Sorghum and Corn and cutting it, and having a JD 95 combine that I cut fescue and orchard grass and Red Clover seed, I was thoroughly impressed seeing a 24 row @ 20" spacing, combine cutting the corn. 

 Biggest grain head I ever saw was a 24' for soybeans and wheat.  This was all in Arkansas Delta, mine was in the hills.

 The old timers would laugh at me for trying to raise a crop for dairy supplement. They would brag how they "wore that farm plumb OUT" years ago. Mined it they did. Never put back anything.

 I have neighbors right next to me, with way more dairy cows than their little acreage will support. They are mining the ground as we speak. They never put fertilizer or lime on the ground, and, flush most of the manure right into the spring fed creek below their barn. The sudan type grasses they grow, get up to 8-9 feet tall, but now, after I mentioned to them 4 years ago, to put stuff back onto the land, there are patches of weeds and the grass is shriveled up, not open and doing well. THIS is what they feed the cows with. I have watched the production steadily decrease, by how long the bulk truck stays at the tank room.

 SOOooo, they just went in debt at over $200,000.00 to buy a few more acres and put the cows over there. Now, the grass is sheep short, the tall grass is shriveling, and, the rainy season is still 2 months away with daily rains, that will start sloughing off what's left of the top soil.

 Some just don't get it. It takes money to make money. OH, now, the 3 boys are "Camioneros", truckers, with 2 stake side Bob trucks, hauling hay bales and sacks of yucca trimmings, that stink worse than hog poop, to feed the cows, and sell some of the goods to area farmers.  ??

 Well, THIS thread got a severe thrashing of OT info. 

 Thanks to Chris for the education.

[bart]

Vitamin A deficiency has killed 8 million kids in the last 12 years.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/project_syndicate0/2013/02/gm_food_golden_rice_will_save_millions_of_people_from_vitamin_a_deficiency.single.html

   Whether your for or against genetic manipulation, the genie is out of the bottle. It is far better now to learn to use it as a force for good as a defense against those will use it to destroy. It is a powerful tool, good and bad. 

[Frank S]

 The old timers would laugh at me for trying to raise a crop for dairy supplement. They would brag how they "wore that farm plumb OUT" years ago. Mined it they did. Never put back anything.

 SOOooo, they just went in debt at over $200,000.00 to buy a few more acres and put the cows over there. Now, the grass is sheep short, the tall grass is shriveling, and, the rainy season is still 2 months away with daily rains, that will start sloughing off what's left of the top soil.

 Some just don't get it. It takes money to make money. OH,
 Well, THIS thread got a severe thrashing of OT info. 

 Thanks to Chris for the education.

On my grandpas farm and the rest of the then family farms everyone had to follow his strict guidelines of soil rejuvenation . Certain crops could only be planted for so many years then the field was to be fallowed usually some grasses would be planted  if there was not a high weed content 1 cutting would be made for hay then the rest of the cuttings for the year would be left to lay at some point during late fall  or during the winter or even early spring the fields would be burned he might have them do this for 2 or 3 years Disc-ing  the ash and charcoal into the soil. eventually the fields would be returned to whichever crop production.
 His hay fields grew among the highest and best quality feed hay in the county
 His theory was if you take it out of the soil you have to put something back and when you depend on rain only for irrigation you'd better believe its important

[DamonHD]

With reference to a question earlier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer

"GMO" (which I have done myself in the lab, in a small way) is doing artificially what happens slowly already in many different way.  Like selective breeding.

I agree that we should be (very) careful, but as with nukes, our instinctive reaction to the risks is all wrong and *not* borne out by the numbers.  Scaremongering and panic really does not help deal with the true risks which *are* present, one of which is not being able to grow enough food to cope when the world population peaks in a few decades...

Rgds

Damon

[bart]

 "Disc-ing  the ash and charcoal into the soil"

  Just found out about this the other day. Your grandfather was a wise man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta

http://www.biochar.info/biochar.biochar-overview.cfml

[ChrisOlson]

There is nothing toxic or dangerous about GMO crops.  The greatest danger is that they will upset the balances in other things that may cause undesirable side effects.

Everything in nature evolves and adapts to survive.  And this evolutionary process happens WAAAY faster than scientists ever imagined that it can.  It only took Mother Nature 18 years in the wild to evolve weeds that are resistant to Roundup herbicide - it took Monsanto about the same amount of time and billions spent in the lab to do it with crops.

Mother Nature cannot be cheated - and if you try, you will lose.  And that is the lesson that man has yet to learn and comprehend.
--
Chris

[electrondady1]

Despite the ravings and foaming at the mouth from various people who don't know what they're talking about,

 What a bunch of clueless slugs

These people that start screaming "non-GMO" and "organic" don't have a freaking clue what they're screaming about.

I'm detecting a bit of hostility .
perhaps people should just shut up and eat what Monsanto tells them to?

in spite of what you say, organic food is a fast growing segment of the industry.
even in Wisconsin

1. Whole Foods Market - Madison
   3313 University Ave   Madison, WI 53705   (608)233-9566
   Hours — Sat: 8:00am-10:00pm   
2. Whole Foods Market - Milwaukee
   2305 N. Prospect Ave   Milwaukee, WI 53211   (414)223-1500
   Hours — Sat: 8:00am-10:00pm   

                                             (^..^)



 

[ChrisOlson]

All food is organic, no matter how it's grown.  The plants don't know a single difference between nitrogen that comes from a commercially made fertilizer or a rotting, steaming, stinking pile of cow dung.

And the fact is, the commercially made fertilizers are generally less harmful to the environment than organic forms.  Commercially made fertilizers have nitrogen stabilizers to prevent them from ending up in the ground water or air, so they stay put in the soil profile where the plant can use it.  Organic sources of nitrogen don't, so they are water soluble and end up in streams and rivers and lakes.  Disposing of the waste from livestock farming is one of the primary sources of groundwater pollution in industrialized society.

Those are the facts.  Organic farming is low-yield because most of the nutrients applied are either wrong (ammonium - plants need nitrate - the ammonium form of nitrogen is what makes s&*t smelly)) or they are lost and can't be used by the plant.

Bottom line is that so-called organic farming is high pollution, low yield, the crop grown is not chemically different from normal methods, and you don't get as much crop because the plant is lacking in nutrients (unless you REALLY want to pollute the environment with more rotting s&*t).  The organic movement was thought up by somebody that doesn't know much about farming, and any time you can fool people into thinking something is "healthy" you can get a scam going and make money on it.

There's one place that I'll guarantee you that you never want to drill a well - and that's in the watershed from a cattle yard.  The water will have a unique "flavor".  That's organic fertilizer at work, and doing what it does best - harbor bacteria, disease, and pollute groundwater.  And it's also why swamp water is not very good to drink - thousands of tons of decaying plant material have polluted it and turned it green.
--
Chris

[bob golding]

always found it puzzling why we use ethanol when n-butanol or isobutanol is so much more useful. just found this after a quick google.  on my tea break so cant stay too long.

http://chenected.aiche.org/energy/the-search-for-environmentally-friendly-energy-ethanol-vs-butanol/

very impressed by chris's pics as usual.
 

[XeonPony]

Despite the ravings and foaming at the mouth from various people who don't know what they're talking about,

 What a bunch of clueless slugs

These people that start screaming "non-GMO" and "organic" don't have a freaking clue what they're screaming about.

I'm detecting a bit of hostility .
perhaps people should just shut up and eat what Monsanto tells them to?

in spite of what you say, organic food is a fast growing segment of the industry.
even in Wisconsin

1. Whole Foods Market - Madison
   3313 University Ave   Madison, WI 53705   (608)233-9566
   Hours — Sat: 8:00am-10:00pm   
2. Whole Foods Market - Milwaukee
   2305 N. Prospect Ave   Milwaukee, WI 53211   (414)223-1500
   Hours — Sat: 8:00am-10:00pm   

                                             (^..^)

To answer that is simple: There's one born every second full stop

Das ist all! It is just another brilliant scam   like homiopithy and crystal healing and over unity, the desperate and the dim witted cling to any thing that make them feel warm and fuzzy rather then bothering to learn the material that which they speak of!

[ChrisOlson]

To answer that is simple: There's one born every second full stop

Well, the thing is, my wife and I love sport fishing.  And we love clean lakes and streams.  Nothing pi$$es me off more than one of these "organic" growers (yeah we got a few around here too) that puts in a crop of potatoes - so they spread 10,000 gallons per acre of liquid cow s^&t from one of the big dairy operations around here on their "organic" potato crop.  And by July the lake next the potato field is so green from runoff that you can't even see your bait 2" below the surface of the water.

Yeah, you bet.  Them potatoes might be "organic" alright.  But the last thing we need is organic water with so much algae in it that the fish run out of oxygen and end up floating dead in the lake.  That's what organic farming does and I hate it with a passion.

Smart farmers have spent their lifetimes learning how to grow high yield crops with minimal impact to the environment.  The commercially made fertilizers have been designed to stay put so the crop can use it.  And then some idiot douses the place with cow s&*t and you can smell it from 15 miles away downwind, the water turns green, the fish die - all so some stupid "healthy" City Slicker in Madison can eat an "organic" potato for dinner.

It makes my blood boil.
--
Chris

[XeonPony]

always found it puzzling why we use ethanol when n-butanol or isobutanol is so much more useful. just found this after a quick google.  on my tea break so cant stay too long.

http://chenected.aiche.org/energy/the-search-for-environmentally-friendly-energy-ethanol-vs-butanol/

very impressed by chris's pics as usual.

http://www.hydrocarbonprocessing.com/Article/3081332/Bio-isobutanol-The-next-generation-biofuel.html  < Bit more technicaly usefull article

I am with you there Chris, we got one of the hippies with out a cuase live out on the land, the real resualt was a mountain of garbage up in the mountain and a 30 foot school bus on fire with 200 pounds propane on board! 

I grew up in remote logging camp where we didn't have comercial fertilizers the lengths we had to go through to keep the stuff in the pat was assinine we gave up and used old furnace oil drums for our garden beds to keep the crap in the garden where it was needed!  Far as I am concerned if it has Carbon in it it is organic! lol

[bob golding]

hey i live in a school bus with 30 lbs of propane, and a pile of rubbish, not 30 foot high yet,but i am trying.
 i am in a 5 acre wilderness of brambles and trees. did try growing stuff once. i definately don't have green fingers. got a good crop of potatoes one year, so went all out the next year and planted 1/2 an acre of them. didn't get one potato from them. blight got them while i was away for a couple of weeks. end of trying to grow stuff. right on the coast so difficult with the wind and the rain. just got a few raspberry bushes and Jerusalem artichokes. even they didn't do much last year as the field was waterlogged for about 2 months. think i will leave farming to those who know how to do it. plenty of wild food here though. mushrooms wild garlic, pennywort, sorrel. plus lots i don't really know about. someone did a survey and said there were 38 edible plants in the field. not all tasty but edible in an emergency.

[ChrisOlson]

I am with you there Chris, we got one of the hippies with out a cuase live out on the land, the real resualt was a mountain of garbage up in the mountain and a 30 foot school bus on fire with 200 pounds propane on board! 

Yep - just about any place you got some sort of "organic" farming or gardening you got a swill hole going.  As long as it's just an Organic Hippie in a school bus, hopefully the swill hole doesn't get too big and pollute everything in sight.  But when you do it on a large farming scale the swill hole is just about unmanageable.

just got a few raspberry bushes and Jerusalem artichokes.

We got some wild blueberries and they are awesome.  My wife has to go out and fight the bears and birds for 'em but she managed to get several gallons this year.  She made blueberry jam, some blueberry pies, and we really love them on ice cream!

The frickin' black bears will gorge on them, then lay nearby and guard them while they roll in the dirt with a gut ache from eating too much blueberries.  My wife grabs her pails and her .357 Mag pistol and the bears have learned that you don't mess with a woman packin' heat   
--
Chris

[Frank S]

Chris your not telling us that your wife would warn off Bu-bu and Yogi with her magnum are you LOL I can hear it now Yogi she has her bucket and a gun we better leave. Don't worry Bu-bu she's not the ranger. No Yogi! she is the farmer's wife. Yaaaeeee we're out a here Bu-bu

[Frank S]

 The problem with trying to use manure is you cannot even hope to use it unless it has been composted in with other plant materials and allowed to decay for 2 years. Until your compost resembles dirt more than plant matter when you start seeing a large amount of earthworm activity then it is ready to be mixed into the soil.
  Those who are taking it straight from the feed lot and emulsifying it with water so it can be sprayed might as well be spraying pure ammonia in high concentrated form
 We used the composting in our fields but no amount of decaying silage + barn yard from 50 cows could ever supply 100% of the fertilizer needed for even a single 50 acre field. Yes Grandpa had close to 3000 acres leased for farming but less than 30% of that was ever under till, and much of what was under till  was subleased to neighbors and family. He would lease out a coastal Bermuda field after haying to someone who would graze 100 head of cattle in it through the winter when he did that the field had to be burned  according to him, He once let a guy run 1500 head of sheep through the winter on one of his fields in Colorado it was 3 years before he put that one back into crops

[XeonPony]

hey i live in a school bus with 30 lbs of propane, and a pile of rubbish, not 30 foot high yet,but i am trying.
 i am in a 5 acre wilderness of brambles and trees. did try growing stuff once. i definately don't have green fingers. got a good crop of potatoes one year, so went all out the next year and planted 1/2 an acre of them. didn't get one potato from them. blight got them while i was away for a couple of weeks. end of trying to grow stuff. right on the coast so difficult with the wind and the rain. just got a few raspberry bushes and Jerusalem artichokes. even they didn't do much last year as the field was waterlogged for about 2 months. think i will leave farming to those who know how to do it. plenty of wild food here though. mushrooms wild garlic, pennywort, sorrel. plus lots i don't really know about. someone did a survey and said there were 38 edible plants in the field. not all tasty but edible in an emergency.

I lived 150 above them in the bush! nothing bad about it, unles you leave your garbage in a haphazerd way and creat a dangerous fire hazerd then abandon it all!

I killed my self to clean their garbage up and I was the one geting flack from the guberment! figures no good deed goes unpunnished, in the futur I don't care if they're dumping toxic waste in the strem so long as it is below me.

[ChrisOlson]

Chris your not telling us that your wife would warn off Bu-bu and Yogi with her magnum are you

Oh yeah, they normally don't bother unless it's a sow with a yearling cub.  If they get to woofing at her because they don't like her taking their blueberries she shoots at a tree close to them and when they get sprayed by wood chips off the tree they generally take off and go find easier blueberries.

You have to watch the little bears because they'll climb up a tree about 8 feet off the ground then start bawling like somebody whacked him with a stick.  That can get the big bear riled right up and then shooting at them don't work.
--
Chris

[gww]

We still do a little gardening every year and I have to admit that I love it when my naibor or friends give me crap " the kind you fork or shovel"  I don,t care if it comes from goats, chickens, rabbits or cows.  I just like the fact that it is free.  I sometimes fill raised beds with the stuff and it last for years.  We will get a dumptruck load and pile it by the garden and my wife will go through it in a year or two in potted plants.  One thing that is garrenteed is you get plenty of weeds with it.  I really thought gardening might take off more when the economy tanked.  I won't say I am a gardener cause I really only like the planting and watching it come up.  When it gets to the weeding and harvasting I kind of fall off.  My wife is the one that last the season.  I make a strong recovery in my intrest when it hits the table though.  Every body needs to do their part eh.
Cheers
gww

PS
The deer, squirl, possom and coon are just as tough on me as your bears,  I have had whole fruit trees worth of fruit dissapear two days before it was ready for human consumption.

Also I have eaten some of the animals above and it doesn't seem to make my plants produce more.