Author Topic: Ethanol Plant  (Read 38590 times)

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Frank S

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #66 on: March 03, 2013, 01:11:04 AM »
Your going to get weeds using barnyard especially if it hasn't reached high enough temps during composting, even then most of the seeds will not be killed off, weed seeds are indigestible by about every animal except for very few species of birds and even their systems do not digest all of the germination kernel of the seeds
  some weeds either the seeds or tubars can lay dormant for many years some scientist think possibly fr up to 100 years in some strains.
  Highly stressed soils will cause increased weed growth this is natures way to combat erosion.
 you can mark out a plot in your yard one that has been well maintained and cared for, just till up the grass then leave it don't plant anything you will have a weed crop like you have never seen.
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

Mary B

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2013, 01:52:19 AM »
Guy who farms organic around my yard uses a spray of bacteria/composted fish remains, claims it is about as good as commercial fertilizer. He tried turkey manure pellets one year and weed city.

midwoud1

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2013, 01:59:29 AM »
Okay , we go !!!!


BillBlake

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2013, 04:03:26 AM »
Farm & Ranch Guide

Antibiotics in distillers grains raises some concerns

By Devan Paulus, University of Minnesota Beef Team

As ethanol production continually increases in North America, the volume of the by-product distillers grains also continues to increase.

Of the distillers grains produced in North America, 90 percent is going into animal feeds with 80 percent of that going into ruminant diets. With such a great deal of distillers going into animal diets, public concern has arisen over the safety of the product.

A recent survey done by the FDA further fueled concern when they announced that 53 percent of domestic distillers grains sampled had antibiotic residues.

A major concern with the use of distillers grains in food animal diets is that, if active, these residues could potentially lead to the development of bacterial resistance in both humans and animals. In addition, active antibiotic residues could be detrimental to the animals consuming them and the humans consuming tissue from those animals.

Distillers grains are primarily produced through dry or wet milling. However, ethanol producers are continually working to create new distillers grain varieties in order to meet the needs of the feed animal producer.

When producing distillers grains through dry milling, the whole grain is milled and used for ethanol production. Wet milling, on the other hand, separates out all of the grain components and only uses the starch for ethanol production. The remaining portion of the grain is used to create a variety of other marketable products.

With each method, the grain or the starch is added to water to create a mash. The mash is heated and enzymes are added to the mixture which allows the starch to breakdown and form glucose.

Next, the mash is fermented. During fermentation, yeast is added to the mixture. The yeast converts the glucose to alcohol. However, during this step bacteria can compete with the yeast, utilizing the glucose to grow. This in turn reduces the amount of ethanol produced from the fermentation process.

In order to combat these competing bacteria, antibiotics are added to the fermentation process. Antibiotics can kill the unwanted bacteria during the fermentation process allowing the yeast to utilize all of the glucose.

Once fermentation is complete and all of the glucose has been converted to alcohol, the alcohol is separated from the water and solids through a distillation column. In the distillation column, heat and other separation methods remove all water from the alcohol producing 100 percent pure ethanol.

After distillation all that remains are the solid (wet cake) and liquid (thin silage) components of silage. The silage is made up of protein, fiber, oil, and non-fermented starch at a concentration three-fold greater than that in the original corn. Additionally, antibiotic residues from the fermentation will be present.

In order to separate the liquid portion of the silage from the solid portion, centrifugation is used. The wet portion, or thin silage, is evaporated further to produce a thick syrup called condensed solubles. The condensed solubles can then be added to the wet cake to produce a variety of products.

The condensed solubles can be mixed back with partially dried wet cake to create 65 percent moisture distillers wet grains with solubles (DWGS), or they can be dried to create distillers dried solubles (DDS). If fed without condensed solubles, the partially dried wet cake is known as distillers wet grains (DWG).

Distillers wet grains can be dried further to produce dried distillers grains (DDG). The most common practice is to dry distillers wet grains with solubles to 10 to 12 percent moisture creating distillers dried grains with solubles (DDGS). Additionally, modified distillers grains with solubles (MDGS) can be produced by creating 50 percent moisture wet cake with condensed solubles.

Antibiotics have been used in fuel ethanol production for decades in order to improve production efficiency by reducing levels of contaminating bacteria present during the fermentation of ethanol, allowing for a more productive fermentation.

There are two major concerns with the use of antibiotics in ethanol. The first concern is the potential for bacteria to develop resistance, rendering antibiotics useless against them. The second concern is the potential for antibiotic residues to end up in animal feeds and potentially animal tissues used for human consumption.

Antibiotic resistance develops in bacteria during ethanol production due to the misuse of antibiotics. This includes antibiotic overdosing when no effect is observed and underdosing when efficient control is observed.

Overdosing can lead to an increased chance that antibiotics will not be inactivated during the distillation process. This would result in their presence in distillers grains.

Consumption of distillers grains containing antibiotic residue by animals could result in humans consuming those animals and in turn acquire resistance to the antibiotics used in ethanol production.

In addition, overdosing affects the rate of fermentation. Underdosing, on the other hand, leads to a lack of effectiveness of antibiotics. It also carries a greater risk of causing resistance, as bacteria can become accustomed to the antibiotic in low doses and thus develop resistance mechanisms.

<snipith>

http://www.farmandranchguide.com/news/livestock/antibiotics-in-distillers-grains-raises-some-concerns/article_fb3c2bfc-445b-11e0-a73b-001cc4c002e0.html

Bill Blake

Frank S

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2013, 04:49:26 AM »
Bill as with any scientific study both sides are printed. when folks only receive 1 side they get only half of the information
 this is from the same article you quoted
" Many countries currently place maximum residue limits in foodstuffs of animal origin to combat this problem. Finally, the FDA expressed concern for the health of animals fed distillers grains containing antibiotic residues.
The only antibiotic currently approved for use in ethanol production is virginiamycin. The FDA/CVM issued a letter of no objection for the use of virginiamycin in the fermentation phase of alcohol production at 2 to 6 ppm. In addition, the CVM did not object to potential residues of 0.2 to 0.5 ppm in distillers by-products. This statement was based on an animal diet containing no more than 20 percent distillers grains. Moreover, it was stated that the FDA/CVM is unlikely to take regulatory action against dried distillers grains-containing feed with residual levels of virginiamycin below 0.5 ppm. Levels below 0.5 ppm pose no concern to broilers, turkeys, swine, or cattle consuming the feed, nor to the humans consuming food derived from those animals."

http://www.farmandranchguide.com/news/livestock/antibiotics-in-distillers-grains-raises-some-concerns/article_fb3c2bfc-445b-11e0-a73b-001cc4c002e0.html
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

BillBlake

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #71 on: March 03, 2013, 06:49:31 AM »
When it comes to the use of antibiotics some commercial outfits get busted being
WAY over what it was 'supposed' to be.

Lucky for us we have people 'Dropping The Dime'
square on their backs once in a while
showing us 'the nasty'.

Nobody took the full Link away from people in my post.

Bill Blake

ChrisOlson

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2013, 10:22:52 AM »
Unfortunately, this is one of those deals where if the media actually reported the whole truth it wouldn't keep people sitting on the edge of their chair.  Is this the product of amateur journalism?  Or seasoned journalists that know how to put a "twist" on something?

Anybody involved in, or familiar with ethanol production and feeding of distiller's grains to livestock knows that the antibiotics used in the tanks are dead after they make it to the distillers - they're biologically inactive.  A lot of the local feed mills know we haul corn to the ethanol plant every day, so when they need a semi load of distillers at their mill they call us and hire us to truck a load back from the plant for them.  When you pick up a load of distillers you get a test sheet for that "lot" of distillers that you pick up.  It has all the tests on it - including antibiotics - negative or ppm biologically active or inactive.

The antibiotics are dead from the heat - just like buying bacterial innoculant for your soybeans and leaving it set out in the sun - it's dead.

If you care to do a google search you can get what Paul Harvey calls The Rest of the Story:
https://www.google.com/search?q=antibiotics+in+distillers+grains+not+active

So why don't reporters concentrate on something else - like antibiotics used in water treatment in the Big City to prevent growth of bacteria in water towers?  Those poor City Slickers are drinking ACTIVE antibiotics in their tap water, for pete's sake.
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Chris

XeonPony

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #73 on: March 03, 2013, 12:01:11 PM »
Come on Chris, haven't you realized that isn't "entertaining" enogh! now days they steer away from any thing meaning full and look for the retards from the Jersy shor show geting knocked up by a hobo in the middle of the high way!
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

12AX7

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #74 on: March 03, 2013, 12:45:44 PM »
Chris,  I noticed your post where you mentioned being a fishing person in northern WI.   Not trying to muck up this thread,  but I was wondering if you would care to share your opinion on the current controversy over the proposed new mining bill.

I've heard that they want to strip mine a section 22miles long and 1/2 mile wide.   Give the mining company  "Carte blanche"   the right to use any/all water and discharge any all waste with out oversight.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #75 on: March 03, 2013, 01:22:46 PM »
I've heard that they want to strip mine a section 22miles long and 1/2 mile wide.   Give the mining company  "Carte blanche"   the right to use any/all water and discharge any all waste with out oversight.

Again, not true.  More of what I call "creative journalism" designed to get readers and make people sit on the edge of their seats.

We got several sand mines in this area in the township to the west of us, as well as a large wash plant for the sand.  They are mining frac sand.  We went to the meetings on the mines when the mining companies came here and wanted to mine frac sand - and the mining companies do not have "Carte blanche".  They have to obey all current laws, including on water use and waste - and they have to restore the mines, including saving the top soil and hauling in new as required, plant grasses or trees on them - or return them to a condition suitable for growing crops.

They cannot use surface water from rivers, streams or creeks.  They have to drill their own high capacity deep wells for the water for the wash plant.  They also cannot discharge water from washing the sand into surface water supplies - it has to returned to ground water it was taken from with a suitable filter system (seepage ponds).  Due to the requirements for the water, the local wash plant has constructed a holding pond that is filled from their deep well pump and they have settling ponds and are recycling the water instead of drawing it continually from their well.  The sediment from the settling ponds (just sand, dirt, rocks, etc.) is being returned to the mine sites for subsoil.

When it comes to the media, if you believe nothing that you hear or read, and only half of what you see, you will do just fine.  If you believe everything that you read or hear, you can live a life of excitement - exactly what the media wants in order to keep you as a customer to watch their ads that they put in their news segments.
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Mary B

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #76 on: March 03, 2013, 02:16:52 PM »
Those pits are a good time to build artificial lakes. Some of the best fishing i have had has come from old gravel pits.

Main stream media (MSM) doesn't tell the news anymore they sensationalize, propagandize and in general avoid real news as much as possible.

BillBlake

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #77 on: March 03, 2013, 02:52:17 PM »
Instead of a TV Show called 'As The World Turns'  this antibiotics struggle is more like
'As The Dime Drops'   :o

As with many things a superficial quick Look isn't going to take people very far.
If it's important to you than be prepared to work and dig. Then dig some more.
I'm not that interested but can see it's not a Dime Store subject.

Let's just take a few quick items. First of all reporters like a little fanfare before they give
the article a little balance. We know this.

Poster's use <snips> and Links since the moderators don't expect the place to become a new 'Wiki'.

Saying <snip> "The only antibiotic currently approved for use in ethanol production is virginiamycin. The FDA/CVM issued a letter of no objection for the use of virginiamycin in the fermentation phase of alcohol production at 2 to 6 ppm. In addition, the CVM did not object to potential residues of 0.2 to 0.5 ppm in distillers by-products. This statement was based on an animal diet containing no more than 20 percent distillers grains. Moreover, it was stated that the FDA/CVM is unlikely to take regulatory action against dried distillers grains-containing feed with residual levels of virginiamycin below 0.5 ppm. Levels below 0.5 ppm pose no concern to broilers, turkeys, swine, or cattle consuming the feed, nor to the humans consuming food derived from those animals."

means little to me when in 2008 the FDA had actually looked for 12 Antibiotics and Monensin.
not just One.

http://www.iatp.org/files/FDA%20corn001.pdf

So excuse me if I'm not impressed with that little virginiamycin tidbit.

No sense going round and round.
In this article below it's well stated.

Antibiotics in Ethanol Grains: Glass Half-Empty or Half-Full?

<snip>
Which brings us to the new news. Researchers from the University of Minnesota have announced an analysis of antibiotic residues in distillers' grains. The results haven't brought much clarity, though; in fact, what you see in them seems to be determined by where you stand on this issue from the start.

<snip>
Perhaps the most frustrating aspect of this issue is that these antibiotics are not necessary. Effective non-antibiotic antimicrobials are readily available to producers and used successfully by many producers, including POET, the largest producer in the country. According to POET, the switch to antibiotic-free distillers' grains offered a market advantage: antibiotic residues are not permitted in layer hen feed.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/04/antibiotics-ethanol/


INSTITUTE FOR AGRICULTURE AND TRADE POLICY

'Bugs in the System: How the FDA fails to Regulate Antibiotics in Ethanol Production'

<snip>
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Basic microbiology and the principle of natural selection dictate that antibiotic use will tend to spur bacteria to become resistant to antibiotics. This fact underlays growing concern about the public health effects of the 29 million pounds of antibiotics sold annually for animal agriculture, weighing in at over four times the tonnage sold for use in treating sick humans. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), tasked with protecting public health, has taken a lax stance on the use of antibiotics in livestock or poultry feed, refusing to place binding regulations on producers that would limit their antibiotic use.

http://www.iatp.org/files/2012_05_02_AntibioticsInEthanol_JO_0.pdf

You can go round and round but it sure seems like they may have had a potential problem
going for years and years until that Dime got Dropped.
Some heavy meat eaters feel as though they were probably 'done' for the dollar.

If we are seeing what Uncle Sam-ie said correctly at Health and Human Services it looks like
some serious 'Tightening Up'
was taking place AFTER that 2008 DIME was Dropped square on the mugs.

I'm no expert on this but felt it was worth people looking into IF it was relevant to their
life. My interest was whether the Distillers Grain would be a worthy compost ingredient
for high tech gardening - or not.

It doesn't seem to have to be 'active' enough to actually take the bacteria out to be of
concern to some experts.

It's just not a sound bite subject.
There are dozens of expert views and various papers on the subject.

Bill Blake

bob golding

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #78 on: March 03, 2013, 04:28:48 PM »
excluding poultry most farm animals are more than 4 times the weight of humans, so saying  antibiotics are  used at 4 times the human rate is meaningless really. the animals are larger so of course they will eat more antibiotics  in there feed wont they.?
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2013, 05:04:14 PM »
excluding poultry most farm animals are more than 4 times the weight of humans, so saying  antibiotics are  used at 4 times the human rate is meaningless really

Uhhh, yeah - pretty much.  Especially when you consider the fact that the farm animal population is WAAAY more than humans - estimated 19 billion poultry alone.

But they can sure make it sensational in the news by not presenting the facts, and only what they want you to hear so your blood pressure goes up and you stay riveted right to the edge of your chair.  LOL!

There are so many clueless people on this planet that don't know where their food comes from, how its grown and processed, and what's involved with it, that it's almost laughable.  But the business of growing food for the world's population is the biggest business on earth - over 9x the size of the global oil industry.  People don't realize this because the largest companies on earth that handle your food are privately owned and not publicly traded.  Companies like:

Cargill - estimated annual revenue 135 billion
Cargill, Incorporated is an American privately held, multinational corporation based in Minnetonka, Minnesota. Founded in 1865, it is now the largest privately held corporation in the United States in terms of revenue.  If it were a public company, it would rank, as of 2011, number 13 on the Fortune 500, behind AT&T Inc. and ahead of JP Morgan Chase.  Some of Cargill's major businesses are trading, purchasing and distributing grain and other agricultural commodities, such as palm oil; trading in energy, steel and transport; the manufacture of livestock and feed; producing food ingredients such as starch and glucose syrup, vegetable oils and fats for application in processed foods and industrial use
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargill

Or:
Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) - estimated annual revenue 90 billion
The Archer Daniels Midland Company (ADM) is an American global food processing and commodities trading corporation headquartered in Decatur, Illinois.  ADM operates more than 270 plants and 420 crop procurement facilities worldwide, where cereal grains and oilseeds are processed into products used in food, beverage, nutraceutical, industrial and animal feed markets worldwide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Daniels_Midland

And those are just two of them involved in middle man processing.  When you get into production of the raw materials to make your food the numbers are so staggering that it's beyond comprehension because it exceeds the GDP of the largest and richest countries on earth.
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Chris

12AX7

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #80 on: March 03, 2013, 11:18:49 PM »
I've heard that they want to strip mine a section 22miles long and 1/2 mile wide.   Give the mining company  "Carte blanche"   the right to use any/all water and discharge any all waste with out oversight.

Again, not true.  More of what I call "creative journalism" designed to get readers and make people sit on the edge of their seats.

We got several sand mines in this area in the township to the west of us, as well as a large wash plant for the sand.  They are mining frac sand.  We went to the meetings on the mines when the mining companies came here and wanted to mine frac sand - and the mining companies do not have "Carte blanche".  They have to obey all current laws, including on water use and waste - and they have to restore the mines, including saving the top soil and hauling in new as required, plant grasses or trees on them - or return them to a condition suitable for growing crops.

They cannot use surface water from rivers, streams or creeks.  They have to drill their own high capacity deep wells for the water for the wash plant.  They also cannot discharge water from washing the sand into surface water supplies - it has to returned to ground water it was taken from with a suitable filter system (seepage ponds).  Due to the requirements for the water, the local wash plant has constructed a holding pond that is filled from their deep well pump and they have settling ponds and are recycling the water instead of drawing it continually from their well.  The sediment from the settling ponds (just sand, dirt, rocks, etc.) is being returned to the mine sites for subsoil.

When it comes to the media, if you believe nothing that you hear or read, and only half of what you see, you will do just fine.  If you believe everything that you read or hear, you can live a life of excitement - exactly what the media wants in order to keep you as a customer to watch their ads that they put in their news segments.
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Chris

Very different from what we've been hearing..   this is a sample of whats being said here..
 Assembly Bill 1/Senate Bill 1 would:

    Allow mining companies to fill lake beds;
    Allow mining companies to dump their waste onto sensitive shorelands and floodplains;
    Double the standard area of groundwater surrounding a mine that could legally be polluted by the company; and
    Change the standard for protecting public health, safety and welfare from “will not” cause harm to “is not likely” to cause harm.
from..http://cleanwisconsin.org/mining

and.. http://cleanwisconsin.org/mining
Local news has reported that the mining company was involved in the wording of the new bill.


ChrisOlson

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #81 on: March 04, 2013, 12:31:58 AM »
Very different from what we've been hearing..   this is a sample of whats being said here..

Why does that not surprise me?  People with an agenda that don't know what's going on and have never been to a mine in their life.

Rather than believing BS why don't you come visit a mine and wash plant and see how they're run?  There's one only 5 miles to the west of us on US8.  There's another one 25 miles south of us on US53.  Living virtually next door to them I have seen that pretty much every move they make is designed to minimize environmental impacts of mining.  Their water recycling and runoff control system is one of the most impressive feats of civil engineering I have ever witnessed.  At the mine sites about 15 miles SW of here they moved off 50-70 feet of overburden to get to the sand and they got elaborate erosion control dams and water handling systems there to prevent any runoff from the mine sites and they use the water that they have to pump from the mine to keep it dry to control dust.

So from my standpoint what we got is a bunch of people that literally don't know their own a$$ from a hole in the ground and they got nothing better to do than sit around and think s^&t up.  Because I have seen firsthand how these mines operate, living virtually next door to them.  And it looks to me like building a 400 acre mine or wash plant is one hell of a lot more ecologically sound than allowing the existence of cities and towns where runoff from the city streets, carrying everything from gasoline and oil that leaks from cars, to rubber dust pollutes rivers and streams.

I'm all for leaving the mines do what they're doing and ban cities and towns instead, and the people that live in them.
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Frank S

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2013, 03:16:18 AM »
Its all about the money.
 The EPA has one of the largest budgets followed by the FCC in the US government I don't off hand know what the budget is but with a grain of sand  I read where the FCC's yearly cost is 142 Billion
 Does anyone for one minute believe that the EPA would ever give cart blanch to a single company Get real.
 
 These agendas have to be thought up and stirred up to keep folks who have little or no first hand knowledge of what it takes to produce their food their fuel their widgets or gadgets, that they have grown do dependent upon
 Have been led to believe I don't know, maybe that everything comes out Captain Picard's replicator.
 "Tea El-grey Hot" 
  Well I have sad news for them, even in the event that such a device will one day exist just as it does in the movies. Behind that panel in the wall there will have to be an unlimited source of raw materials which will take up half of the total volume inside of the Enterprise and the only way to re stock those supplies will be to mine them.
 Now would I tell anyone that something like in the Movie with Steven Segal "Fire Down Below" could never happen?
 Of course not! I've witnessed first hand some unscrupulous things happen in my oilfield days like mud pits being covered over after 100s of barrels or oil being spilled but! I don't know of a single company who actually got away with it.
  Without these public outcries the funding for the watchdogs would dry up. Well not dry up but revert to honest levels. then the Lobbyists would be out of a job     
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

ChrisOlson

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2013, 08:34:09 AM »
What's quite amazing is the number of people that have zero firsthand knowledge or experience with what they're talking about come up with this stuff.  Everything from antibiotics in distillers to the mining companies can wreck everything in site and get away with it.

Where does this paranoia come from anyhow?  Paranoia bred from things that are so far from the truth and facts, that for somebody on the front lines it's absolutely incomprehensible how these stories could even get thought up.

I've come to the conclusion that there's a whole lot of people on this planet that evidently have never traveled outside the boundaries of their own back yard and they got nothing better to do than set around and think s^&t up about what's going on outside those boundaries.
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12AX7

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2013, 01:27:57 PM »
You're right,  I know very little about mining.  But I would think that the process used to mine sand and to mine iron would be different.

My question was about the NEW BILL,  where there will be changes to the rules that the mines currently must follow.   So visiting a mine that was constructed to meet the OLD standards might not be a fair representation.

http://www.nature.org/ourinitiatives/regions/northamerica/unitedstates/wisconsin/wi-mining-bill-summary.pdf

Changes to regulations that could put our
resources at risk:
Removes Wetland Protections
–
Due to the high amount of moisture, particularly snow, that the areareceives there is a high
concentration of wetlands in this area.
•The bill removes protections for wetlands that are deemed Areas of Significant Natural Resource
Interest (ASNRI). These are wetlands that in the past could not be mitigated for due to their
high quality.
•The bill states that it is presumed that significant adverse impacts to wetlands will be necessary
and significantly reduces the DNR's ability to avoid and minimize impacts on the site.
•The bill significantly weakens wetland mitigation requirements by awarding a
minimum of 1credit for every acre of wetland “enhanced” in a mitigation bank. Current law awards between 0 and 1 credit based on the functional improvement of the wetland. This change would allow a
superficial enhancement of a wetland the same credit as a wetland that has been fully restored.


Deregulates Water Withdrawls
•The bill replaces the current standards for surface and ground water withdrawls. Current law
does not allow a withdrawal to cause significant environmental impact to a groundwater
protection area, such as trout streams and outstanding or exceptional resource waters. This bill
allows the withdrawals from an environmental impact point of view as long as they do not cause
significant adverse impacts on the Great Lakes or Upper Mississippi River Basin. A trout stream
in the area of the mine like Alder Creek comprises 15.4 square miles, while the Great Lakes Basin
is 295,000 square miles.
•The Department must issue a water withdrawal permit if it determines that the public benefits
resulting from the mining operation exceed any injury to public rights and interest in a body of
water, effectively removing any discretion by the DNR in issuing any withdrawal permit



Mining Waste Sites
–
These sites contain the overburden, tailings and waste rock created in the mining process. The
se sites are monitored closely under current law due to the threat they pose to water ways.
This rock can contain many harmful elements including mercury, asbestos and sulfuric acid and can
cause sedimentation issues for lakes, rivers and streams.
•The bill does not expressly authorize the DNR to monitor these sites, making detection,
corrections and enforcement very difficult.
•The DNR can require detailed inspections by the mining company but the bill eliminate the
requirement that the results be given to the Department.
•The bill removes the requirement to study the nature and the depth of the overburden. While
ferrous minerals don't react when exposed to air and water (unlike sulfite minerals) to create
acid drainage, minerals in the overburden very well could. The amount of overburden that
would be removed in a project in the Penokee Range would be far greater than the actual
ferrous rock that would be removed. Not knowing what is in the overburden would leave a lot
of the protection of our waterways imply up to chance.
•The bill would allow waste piles to be built taller, with 50% steeper slopes than current law, and
with a permit from the DNR allowing them to be constructed adjacent to or in flood plains and
shore land areas.
•The bill removes the requirement that high priority be given to selecting a design for waste sites
that minimizes the risk of environmental pollution.
•The bill allows waste sites to be placed in areas where the DNR has determined there is a
reasonable probability that the waste will result in a violation of surface and groundwater
standards.



BillBlake

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2013, 01:52:31 PM »
12AX7,

It's a wonderful thing to see how you can stay on message
and not try to 'Wag The Dog'
all over the Internet.
It's refreshing.

For instance it will take you the best part of two minutes to see what size
the FCC budget and the EPA budget really is.

It seems that the 66 Billion Dollar budget for Wisconsin is over 7 times larger than
the FCC and the EPA budget put together.

Bill Blake
 

ChrisOlson

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2013, 02:08:17 PM »
My question was about the NEW BILL

Where is this "NEW BILL"?  Have you read it?  Or have you only read the fact distortions and stretching propaganda put out by some media outfits and/or special interest groups with an agenda?

There's facts and there's facts presented by the media.  The two are never the same.
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Frank S

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2013, 02:28:47 PM »
My question was about the NEW BILL

Where is this "NEW BILL"?  Have you read it?  Or have you only read the fact distortions and stretching propaganda put out by some media outfits and/or special interest groups with an agenda?

There's facts and there's facts presented by the media.  The two are never the same.
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Chris
I'm trying to find the actual bill as well so far all I can see is there is not even a bill reference #

 Someone wanted the EPA well here it is and I hope you have a few hours to read it then add it all up
 http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/epa.pdf
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

BillBlake

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #88 on: March 04, 2013, 02:39:45 PM »
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/assembly/richards/news/Pages/Controversial-Mining-Bill-Unveiled.aspx

December 8, 2011   

Jon Richards, State Rep.
 
Mining Bill Unveiled
 
A mining bill was unveiled today at a State Capitol news conference.  It would streamline Wisconsin's mine permitting process and was written specifically for an out-of-state mining company that wants to build an open pit iron mine in Northern Wisconsin. 
 
Today was the first time the public and many lawmakers, including me, have had an opportunity to see the bill.  It is 183 pages long and very technical.  We all need some time to carefully analyze the details and get the facts.  Decisions on a proposal of this magnitude need to be based on sound science through a collaborative, thoughtful and open process.
 
I am troubled at the onset by the process that's being used so far to move the mining bill through the Legislature.  Instead of being referred to the Natural Resources Committee, which would be the most appropriate venue, the bill is being considered by the Jobs Committee, which does not deal with technical environmental issues on a regular basis.  Second, the public hearing on the mining bill is being held in just a few days during daytime working hours at State Fair Park—over 300 miles away from where the proposed mine is sited.  This arrangement denies Wisconsin citizens, especially those most directly impacted by the bill, a legitimate opportunity to fully participate in the process.
 
 
Here are the details on the public hearing if you're interested in attending. 
 
Wednesday, December 14, 2011
10:00 AM
Wisconsin State Fair Park
Tommy G. Thompson Youth Center
 
You can read a copy of the mining bill here.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/assembly/richards/eupdates/Documents/Mining%20Bill%2011-28-11.pdf

This might not be the newest Bill - says old Bill.

Ask the Internet for 'Copy of New ......

Take you all of a minute. :-)

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7h.F9zRRax8ATv9XNyoA?p=Copy%20of%20New%20Wisconsin%20mining%20bill&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-200

Bill Blake

Mary B

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #89 on: March 04, 2013, 02:39:49 PM »

12AX7

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #90 on: March 04, 2013, 02:59:14 PM »
I understand that the new bill is 290 pages and a law degree would be useful in reading and understanding it.

The accusations or summaries of the "BILL"   that the "tree huggers* (and sportsmen and private citizens) have made have never been addressed nor denied by those pushing the BILL which leads me (ya,  I know I know)  to believe that this is another case of  "where there's smoke, there's fire".

And yes Bill,  this BILL is a bit off subject of ethanol.   Perhaps I should have started another thread?

ChrisOlson

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #91 on: March 04, 2013, 05:21:09 PM »
I understand that the new bill is 290 pages and a law degree would be useful in reading and understanding it.

Like I said, we've been to the meetings on this because we're a major land owner here and have had requests to get a lease to operate two mines on some of our properties.  I'm pretty familiar with it.  So I would invite anybody, before they jump on the Media or Special Interest Group Tree Hugger Paranoia Bandwagon, to actually study it so you can find out that real facts are different that what's presented by the media and these "groups".

There is no Carte blanche for the mining companies.  Period.  Basically what it is is people that want to have food on the shelves when they go the grocery store, and gas in the pump when they go to the gas station, and they want to believe that food comes from those stores and gas comes from those pumps.  And any activity that involves actually GETTING those products to where they want to believe they come from is "bad".

There's all kinds of people on this planet that want electricity but they go into a coma if somebody has to construct wind turbines or power plants to make it because it's going to destroy the environment.  They want food but they go into coma when they find out some big farmer applies for a permit for an irrigation well because it's going to destroy the environment.  They want gas for their car but they go into a coma when they find out somebody has to drill for it because it's going to destroy the environment.

In the end, these people that are going into a coma over all this are THE PROBLEM.  If they didn't exist and want all this stuff we could leave everything pristine and not have to farm, mine and drill for it all.  So guess what?  Wanna solve THE PROBLEM?  Hey, I'm all for it - let's start gettin rid of 'em.
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Chris

bob golding

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #92 on: March 04, 2013, 07:05:18 PM »
I understand that the new bill is 290 pages and a law degree would be useful in reading and understanding it.

Like I said, we've been to the meetings on this because we're a major land owner here and have had requests to get a lease to operate two mines on some of our properties.  I'm pretty familiar with it.  So I would invite anybody, before they jump on the Media or Special Interest Group Tree Hugger Paranoia Bandwagon, to actually study it so you can find out that real facts are different that what's presented by the media and these "groups".

There is no Carte blanche for the mining companies.  Period.  Basically what it is is people that want to have food on the shelves when they go the grocery store, and gas in the pump when they go to the gas station, and they want to believe that food comes from those stores and gas comes from those pumps.  And any activity that involves actually GETTING those products to where they want to believe they come from is "bad".

There's all kinds of people on this planet that want electricity but they go into a coma if somebody has to construct wind turbines or power plants to make it because it's going to destroy the environment.  They want food but they go into coma when they find out some big farmer applies for a permit for an irrigation well because it's going to destroy the environment.  They want gas for their car but they go into a coma when they find out somebody has to drill for it because it's going to destroy the environment.

In the end, these people that are going into a coma over all this are THE PROBLEM.  If they didn't exist and want all this stuff we could leave everything pristine and not have to farm, mine and drill for it all.  So guess what?  Wanna solve THE PROBLEM?  Hey, I'm all for it - let's start gettin rid of 'em.
--
Chris

think those people are called BANANAS. Build Absolutly Nothing Anywhere Near Anything
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #93 on: March 04, 2013, 07:22:28 PM »
think those people are called BANANAS. Build Absolutly Nothing Anywhere Near Anything

That's exactly what they are.  They all flip the light switch, pull a pizza out of the freezer and cook it, jump in the car and run the kids to basketball practice - and never once stop to think "where did all the stuff that makes this life we enjoy come from?"

Obviously it is "just there" or comes from "Someplace Else".  When the realities of their lifestyle set in, like a company wanting to build a mine to extract iron ore to make a new car for them it's "OMG!!!  The environment is being DESTROYED!!!!"

Well.  DUH.  And just why do you think that is?  Everything you got and enjoy got just beamed down from Outer Space one day.  Right?
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Chris

niall2

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #94 on: March 04, 2013, 08:09:57 PM »
fair enough ...it has to come from somewhere .... :)....but do the big mining corporate,s really care that much about joe blogs ?....

i know the thread has drifted , you mentioned the mining of sand for the fracking gas industry near you Chris.....

if there,s one industry that can put small local farmers, family's and whole communities at each others throat........ that,s the one.....

i,m sure Bp thought they were on the button to do deep sea drilling so close to coast ....now the head guy who,s watch it was is retired and living it up in the sun ..no worries ...

i think these big corporate,s are in reality ...the politions

its like neo mags......great for us , as long as your not the 10 acre farmer living next to the pollution     

« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 08:29:57 PM by niall2 »

ChrisOlson

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #95 on: March 04, 2013, 08:25:06 PM »
if there,s one industry that can put small local farmers, family's and whole communities at each others throat........ that,s the one.....

Actually the mining companies have brought millions in revenue to the area, and provided thousands of new jobs - none of it funded by The Obama Tax Payer Funded Bailouts.  The town road to two of the mine sites has been bad for years.  The mining company went to the Town Board meeting and offered to pay, lock and stock and barrel, to put in a new road because they need a good road to haul frac sand from the mines to the wash plant.

One of the smaller, older mines that has been going for quite awhile has already been reclaimed.  They did an absolutely beautiful job of restoring that mine site - put all the overburden back, landscaped everything, re-spread the topsoil and went over it with dozers with rock rakes and picked all the rocks off - it is going back to crop production for the 2013 season.  By this coming summer you will never be able to tell that there was a 200 acre mine there that was over 120 feet deep.

A lot of people were apprehensive and there was a lot of questions when the mining companies came here several years ago.  I have seen absolutely nothing bad happen thru it all.  The mining companies have done everything they said they would do in the meetings and all the presentations they did for the local people to show how modern mining is done.  Like I stated here earlier, they are a model of industrial efficiency and I have yet to see where any of their activities are more damaging to the environment than the mere existence of a city with 3,000 population.  The waste water treatment and discharge, garbage disposal, runoff from streets, etc. from that city of 3,000 people - from what I have seen - is FAR more damaging to the environment than all the mines in this area combined.
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Chris

DamonHD

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #96 on: March 05, 2013, 03:09:27 AM »
I think that there is a rich and unfortunate history in the US and round the world of mining companies walking away from obligations to clean up by going bankrupt or whatever, leaving nasty effluent ponds, etc.

The good companies are tainted by the behaviour of the rest.

Rgds

Damon
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XeonPony

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Re: Ethanol Plant
« Reply #98 on: March 05, 2013, 10:17:22 AM »
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/03/white-house-arrests-gmo-petitioner-2-2583796.html

BFD = big f___king Deal.  In other words this has zip to do with the president, and nothing to do with the thread topic nor even with the current conversation.
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!