Author Topic: 10m giving 50kw, ?  (Read 3448 times)

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clockmanFRA

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10m giving 50kw, ?
« on: March 12, 2013, 05:09:24 AM »
Your comments please.

I have no connection with this but i think the basic maths are wrong. ?

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21729075.400-reap-the-whirlwind-for-cheap-renewable-power.html
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OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

dnix71

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Re: 10m giving 50kw, ?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2013, 10:13:15 AM »
10M blade or 10M diameter?  There is a 50kw VAWT down the street from me that has a 50KW rating and is about that size.

bob golding

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Re: 10m giving 50kw, ?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2013, 11:02:47 AM »
could make one of those with a few sheets of celotex inside my yurt frame.
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

altosack

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Re: 10m giving 50kw, ?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2013, 11:32:14 AM »
What basic maths ?  I don't see any, except that the diagram that you click on shows it as being 2m high.  Even at a 10m radius, that's only 40 m2, or about the same as a 7m diameter prop.  The Bergey XL, which is 7m diameter, is rated at 10 kW for the grid-tie version, 7.5kW for the battery version, and that's about 30-40m up in the air, not on the ground.

The article states that the temperature differential between the ground and 1m above it starts a "self-sustaining vortex" that then drives a horizontal prop.  Well, if energy is going to be extracted on a continual basis, then it has to be removed.  The only sources of energy are wind and solar. 

Solar-based ones, i.e., props that work on a temperature differential, with a greenhouse on the bottom funneled up through a vertical tower, have been done; they take a lot more than 10m diameter for 50 kW, and they do not use a similar design.  They have actual working prototypes.

Wind-based ones have also been done; they're called VAWTs; none are being built for commercial-scale electricity.  I'm sure this is because the basic technology is being suppressed, and simple devices that have heretofore been overlooked can extract zero point energy directly.  (I hope you are awash in the dripping sarcasm from what I just said.)

Quite simply, if there is a new method for extracting energy, tell us where the energy is coming from, and explain in a simple diagram how it actually works, don't use words like "self-sustaining" and "vortex", which have no meaning, and are meant to fool those who don't understand physics.  To say the ARPA-E and Stephen Chu are interested doesn't impress me.  Explaining how it really works without using buzzwords (and including the actual math) does impress me.

ChrisOlson

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Re: 10m giving 50kw, ?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2013, 12:37:59 PM »
I have no connection with this but i think the basic maths are wrong. ?

They might not be wrong.  There's little doubt that if you can harness a tornado you got power.  The highest wind speeds on earth have been recorded in tornados.  I think the trick is actually capturing one and putting a harness on it.  Even little tornados (dust devils) have tremendous power.  Big ones release more energy every second than atomic bombs.

Various experimenters have gotten closer to building an AVE (Atmospheric Vortex Engine) that works on a practical scale:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_engine

Basically, any wind turbine (or gas turbine) harvests energy from the kinetic energy contained in moving air (or gases), with the amount of shaft power developed depending on the efficiency of the blades.  If you can increase the velocity of that air (or gas), and hence the amount of kinetic energy it contains, by creating an artificial vortex (tornado), it is possible to get tremendous power from a small blade size.  If you do the calculations, a tiny 3.0 meter rotor at 35% efficiency develops 130 kW of shaft power @ 100 mph wind speed and 16 kW at only 50 mph at sea level air densities.

So, as wild as it may seem, I see this as being completely plausible.

It doesn't take new technology - gas turbines (really no different than wind turbines in a lot of ways) are proven technology and have been around for years.  Fueling one with an artificial vortex (done in the combustors and expansion section in a gas turbine) is not impossible to do with solar power  - just really hard to do.
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« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 01:16:40 PM by ChrisOlson »

clockmanFRA

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Re: 10m giving 50kw, ?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 01:07:33 PM »
 'Chris', your comment "I think the trick is actually capturing one and putting a harness on it.  Even little tornados (dust devils) have tremendous power"
 I agree, I just can not see how they can harness all that power in a Wind Farm scenario.

'altosack', using this calculation, http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wind-power-d_1214.html and giving it an efficiency of 0.35%, (normally 0.25%) a wind speed of 31mph is only 43Kw.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

ChrisOlson

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Re: 10m giving 50kw, ?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2013, 01:17:29 PM »
Well, read above.  I just added some comments there.
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bart

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Re: 10m giving 50kw, ?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2013, 05:24:55 PM »
    Although I've got plenty to do, is this something that might work despite the trees that surround me? If it depends more on convection then it might be doable. And if so what would good blade shape be?

fabricator

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Re: 10m giving 50kw, ?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2013, 05:32:19 PM »
IIRC that idea has been around for some time, I can't get the link but they were talking about building one of those down in OZ a half mile tall or some such thing.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

ChrisOlson

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Re: 10m giving 50kw, ?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2013, 06:14:06 PM »
    Although I've got plenty to do, is this something that might work despite the trees that surround me? If it depends more on convection then it might be doable. And if so what would good blade shape be?

It depends on more than just convection.  Do a little research on AVE's (Atmospheric Vortex Engines).  You have to create a tornado using the same methods that Mother Nature uses - then tame it and harness it.  It CAN be done - it's not junk science.  But it's not easy either.
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bart

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Re: 10m giving 50kw, ?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2013, 09:33:40 PM »
    Like the concept, but if this statement is true "It is estimated that it would be possible to establish a self-sustaining vortex to demonstrate the feasibility of the process with a station 30 m in diameter under ideal conditions."
   Then it is not feasible, at least for my purposes.

bart

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Re: 10m giving 50kw, ?
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2013, 09:35:49 PM »

bob golding

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Re: 10m giving 50kw, ?
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2013, 07:36:35 AM »
   And the darn link.
http://vortexengine.ca/english.shtml

"and extend up to the tropopause" dont like the sound of that. better make sure they are a long way from aircraft flight paths. this sounds as doable as the idea of wind turbines on large balloons people come up with every so often. works fine on paper but  getting funding and somewhere to build one might be  a bit more difficult. to gaurantee it will be safe it needs to be far away from habitation, then you have the problem of getting the power to the grid. same problem as wave power has. i think solar PV is still more viable and easier.
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

clockmanFRA

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Re: 10m giving 50kw, ?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2013, 12:49:38 PM »
Now it makes sence, good link, Bart.

"There is reluctance to attempt to reproduce a phenomenon as destructive as a tornado, but controlled tornadoes could reduce hazards by relieving instability rather than create hazards. A small tornado firmly anchored over a strongly built station would not be a hazard. The AVE could increase the power output of a thermal power plant by 30% by converting 20% of its waste heat to work.
 
It is estimated that it would be possible to establish a self-sustaining vortex to demonstrate the feasibility of the process with a station 30 m in diameter under ideal conditions. Learning to control large vortices under less than ideal conditions would be a major engineering challenge. Developing the process will require determination, engineering resources; and cooperation between engineers and atmospheric scientists. There will be difficulties to overcome, but they should be no greater than in other large technical enterprises
."


I get concerned when folk just give wild estimates about energy production without any real hard evidence.

May be I am just getting old.?  ::) and should climb back into my hole. ?
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery