Author Topic: Charge controllers  (Read 26964 times)

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ChrisOlson

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2013, 12:07:48 PM »
Well, there is an undocumented way (I know... There's a lot missing from the documentation),  to force a
new day and transfer that data over.  Go to LOGS, DAILY, and then hold the Left-Arrow key down and then press the ENTER key (hold it for a moment) and it should display  "New Day".  This should not change the date and time in the Classic

OK, I got a chuckle out of that one.  That's even better than the Vulcan Mind Meld to reset the thing.  What other undocumented secrets you got in there?   ;D
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DamonHD

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2013, 12:13:11 PM »
What about the key sequence that converts all the lead plates into gold?  Makes them useless as batteries but great to buy new ones...

Oh, boo, I was meant to keep that one to myself!  %-P

Rgds

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ChrisOlson

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2013, 02:08:42 PM »
I don't know about a secret button to convert battery grids into gold.  But I dropped the beta firmware into my solar Classic and boB's Two Button Salute works slicker than the proverbial snot to make the logs roll over    ;D
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dgd

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2013, 10:01:45 PM »
..
I ran out of AUX1 ports, being they're used for turbine overspeed braking on the turbine controllers, and I'm using AUX2 on the solar Classic 150 for water heating with a SSR.  So I used the AUX1 on the solar controller to run a ice cube relay that turns on 24V power to all the clipper/brake contactors on the turbines in Float.  I'll grab that beta and throw it in that solar controller and see how it works    ;D

There are just not enough aux ports. The more 'necessary'  aux features boB adds to the Classic then the worse the problem.
I use two Classics, wind aux1 overvoltage (140v) to brake contactor, aux2 Clipper control, solar aux1 fan control, aux2 water heater.
Now I need to have an aux2 input to force float for LiFeYPO4 battery bank - from battery monitor.
I also like this aux1 on float  for contactor control to stop turbine, although I cant see a situation where the Classic would go to float
with LiFeYPO4 unless instructed to by a BM. So maybe the BM gotofloat input to Classic could be used to stop turbine too..
but how to control the water heating?
Maybe that USB port could get used for some AUX control functions  ???

dgd
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Midnite C150,C250,Clipper, 2.8Kw PV, 2Kw turbine,1025Ah24v FLA (1999), SW3024E (1997), 3q16 48v300Ah LiFeYPO4 6Kw OzInverter, Arduino DUE web monitor.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2013, 10:22:33 PM »
There are just not enough aux ports. The more 'necessary'  aux features boB adds to the Classic then the worse the problem.

Yeah, I know.  Out of four Classics I got only one AUX2 open, and that's it.

I put that beta firmware in there today and it worked good this afternoon.  The brake contactors cycled a few times late afternoon when the sun went down but it didn't chatter 'em like it did before.  Then my wife turned on something that dropped the system out of Float into Float MPPT and it fired the turbines up and away they went.  They've been struggling to keep up ever since   :)
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dgd

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2013, 10:47:39 PM »
Just thinking that there are two aux actions that result in the same outcome, overvoltage = contactor to stop turbine for  a short while and batterry in float = contactor to stop  turbine until battery not in float.
Maybe boB could give us some logic to have these 'ored' into the one aux1 output.
ie  if overvoltage or batt in float then aux1 active = contactor active  :)

dgd
Off grid since 4/2000
Midnite C150,C250,Clipper, 2.8Kw PV, 2Kw turbine,1025Ah24v FLA (1999), SW3024E (1997), 3q16 48v300Ah LiFeYPO4 6Kw OzInverter, Arduino DUE web monitor.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2013, 08:06:51 AM »
Just thinking that there are two aux actions that result in the same outcome, overvoltage = contactor to stop turbine for  a short while and batterry in float = contactor to stop  turbine until battery not in float.

That would be cool.  Maybe put that in the Clipper function on the AUX1 for folks who want to use mechanical relays for over-voltage control during charging and shutdown in Float.

Midnite's clipper is designed to use the AUX2 and I think that's the recommended method because it's smoother.  But still, I found with zero cross SSR's that it "pulses" the turbine during braking.  So it's not ideal.  And the other thing, like I mentioned, is the Float stage.  When you got a high performance turbine and a bank in Float it just doesn't work.  You may as shut the frickin' thing down because all it's going to do on a good wind site is burn stuff up.

And that's why I've given up on trying to regulate them in Float.  If the power was needed, the Waste Not Hi on AUX2 would be active and provide a load thru the battery charging because the inverter has water heater elements turned on so it needs battery charging to power the aux load.

But what happens is that the stats kick the heaters out because they're hot, the system goes into float, and I got three screaming turbines looking for someplace to stick 7.5 kW of power.  And once they unload and go wild it's actually like more 10+ kW.  That's where I came up with this idea of using the brake contactors to shut 'em off in Float.  I got tired of having clippers go up in smoke and then the turbine really unloads, sends the controller in HyperVOC, and I had one hit 200 volts one day when the clipper evaporated.  Just shut 'em off and you don't have that problem.
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2013, 08:26:49 AM »
You see, this is why I've come to view the traditional "dump load" for a wind turbine as a smoking pile of crap.  Because that's what they usually turn into.  "Dump loads" are for toy turbines, not turbines that make serious power.

What happens with the PWM/SSR method of braking is that it allows the turbine to continue to run at full rated output, placing those braking resistors at 100% duty cycle - JUST to keep the voltage below 148V (on my turbines).

With the mechanical contactor using a delay/hold method, it kills the airfoils so the turbine stops putting out power.  So the braking system isn't at 100% duty cycle.  More like only 10% duty cycle because it takes a bit for the turbine to recover from being killed and get the airfoils up to speed again.  And that's why I've never had a single problem with the one turbine that I've never used a clipper on.  The braking system just handles a huge inrush for a split second and then the airfoils die.  So it quits developing power and heat, giving things some time to cool off before it comes back to life.

Sure, the slam-bang method isn't as smooth.  But it's more reliable.
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DamonHD

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2013, 09:12:04 AM »
Curious that that is where my <50W puny turbine is too!  SCR crowbar when the (battery) voltage is getting too high (albeit a little LiPO4 pack with its own BMS rather than SLA).  It doesn't sound nice when it trips, and a bit of dump load avoids it happening too often, but clamped short is probably least horrible overall.

Rgds

Damon


ChrisOlson

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2013, 09:18:40 AM »
It doesn't sound nice when it trips, and a bit of dump load avoids it happening too often, but clamped short is probably least horrible overall.

For little turbines the traditional "dump load", I think, is fine.  But with big machines where you got >150 lbs of rotating mass and you're dealing with power measured in thousands of watts "dump loads" are bad, and slam-on braking is severe but it works.  You can make 1/2" rebar glow red from the power my turbines put out in good wind, and there's where "dump loads" get ridiculous.

In the end, a variable pitch prop is the way to go.  I got a prototype hub in the shop that I built for my 1:10 taper shafts and I'm going to strap it on one turbine and start testing it as soon we get rid of the mud and snow here so I can lower a tower.
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midwoud1

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2013, 11:22:49 AM »
Chris.

A variable pitch prop.
Where are you thinking on.
Passive , positive or negative with flyweights or active.
I had passive -positive 3 blades and 2 blades ( slim and low twist ,high speed )
But that was to startup in low wind , worked good (but no regulation high rpm )
I have made a check-up my active prop after one year, still perfect.
  - Frans -

ChrisOlson

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2013, 11:39:36 AM »
It's a Jacobs style - uses the blades for the flyweights.  And instead of extension springs going to each blade I used a big coil spring with an adjustment nut on the front of it, that pushes on the spider sleeve.  The governor weighs about 40 pounds, and that's with no blades on it.  It's way too big to test it on the lathe because it's 30" in diameter.

After I test it on a turbine and make sure it works I'll post the project so folks can see it.  But I don't want anybody to think it's the cat's meow if it don't work.  I don't mind blowing turbines all to smithereens.  Done it many times.  But I don't want other people to do it.
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midwoud1

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2013, 12:34:16 PM »

dgd

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2013, 08:37:43 PM »
What happens with the PWM/SSR method of braking is that it allows the turbine to continue to run at full rated output, placing those braking resistors at 100% duty cycle - JUST to keep the voltage below 148V (on my turbines).

So the problem is the batteries are charged, the water is hot, the Classics' all in float and the turbines still going flat out with only the Clipper to limit the input voltage to the Classic and this it does by letting those dump resistors try to deal with the full output from the turbine  (PWMing all done and they are full on).
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think those green coated wirewound resistors are designed for sustained duty at their max rated wattage.
Its not too long before the green stuff blackens and smokes and then they glow and perhaps evaporate.
I notice that Ebay sellers say these are for 'medium to light duty' whatever that means.

Although  the contactor to stop the turbine when batteries in float looks a great Clipper anti-smoking device I was wondering about
having the contactor switch in  some of those 'designed to glow red' radiant heater elements (nichrome wire type?) as a dump.
Still using some of the free turbine power to warm up a room  :D

dgd
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Midnite C150,C250,Clipper, 2.8Kw PV, 2Kw turbine,1025Ah24v FLA (1999), SW3024E (1997), 3q16 48v300Ah LiFeYPO4 6Kw OzInverter, Arduino DUE web monitor.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2013, 09:51:07 PM »
Although  the contactor to stop the turbine when batteries in float looks a great Clipper anti-smoking device I was wondering about
having the contactor switch in  some of those 'designed to glow red' radiant heater elements (nichrome wire type?) as a dump.

I suppose there's all sorts of things that could be thought up to use power just to keep turbines running after the day is done.  We have an all-electric off-grid home and the biggest challenge over the years was coming up with a way to reliably heat 110 gallons of water to at least 130 degrees once every 4 days so we never run out of hot water.  I've played with just about everything to do that, including direct solar water heating that freezes up in the winter and don't work anyway because the sun don't shine then.

I've been able to accomplish it by using a combination of wind and solar power (and auto start/stop generator when necessary).  But the Classic controller has been what's made it possible to do and still take good care of the batteries.  For the first time in history our batteries get properly bulk charged, absorbed for the precise time they need it, then floated - while simultaneously keeping the RE sources at full power until the stats kick the water heaters out.

When all that's done I just want to get on with my day and do other things like go fishing.  So I've come to the conclusion of why leave a turbine running just you because can when you don't need it?  The goal is not to set a World Record for energy production.  It's to live comfortably off-grid without having to give up the things that "normal" folks enjoy and take for granted.

We bought a new Trane XR-13 2-ton Central A/C unit for our house because we decided we're not going to live another summer in torture in the heat.  It's going to take power to run it but I'm confident we can do it by just throwing more solar panels at the problem.

So in the end there's only so much practical use for "opportunity loads".  For the things you need every day like hot water or air conditioning in hot weather, it just takes raw power.  BUT - when you get to the point where we are where you got enough raw power to run that stuff, you have to have a way to turn that raw power off when you don't need it too - and it's got to be automatic so you don't have to think about it or mess with it.

The Classic is more than just a Charge Controller.  As you and I both know, boB has put enough features in those AUX ports so you can run and control just about any dang thing you want, from using excess power for heating water while still charging the batteries properly, to even having the thing turn your yard light on at dusk and off at dawn with that feature on the AUX1 port.  There is no other controller that even comes close to what it can do.  So now having a surefire way to shut all my turbines down in one fell swoop when the system drops into float for the day, and start 'em back up when the system drops out of Float is just icing on the cake.  Why wear turbines out just because you can?    ;D
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dgd

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2013, 05:06:14 PM »

The Classic is more than just a Charge Controller.  As you and I both know, boB has put enough features in those AUX ports so you can run and control just about any dang thing you want, from using excess power for heating water while still charging the batteries properly, to even having the thing turn your yard light on at dusk and off at dawn with that feature on the AUX1 port.  There is no other controller that even comes close to what it can do.  So now having a surefire way to shut all my turbines down in one fell swoop when the system drops into float for the day, and start 'em back up when the system drops out of Float is just icing on the cake.  Why wear turbines out just because you can?    ;D

yes I would agree that its becoming more than just a Charge Controller, more like the hub of a RE management system. With the new battery amp sensor that interfaces to the Classic and getting a web server interface either in or attached to the Classic, it will
easily continue to be the best CC available.
I just wish there were more  boB clones to progress things a little faster. I suppose thats the price of setting the bar so high with a well featured CC and having an ethusiastic user base, they keep suggesting more features and want them yesterday. :P

dgd

Off grid since 4/2000
Midnite C150,C250,Clipper, 2.8Kw PV, 2Kw turbine,1025Ah24v FLA (1999), SW3024E (1997), 3q16 48v300Ah LiFeYPO4 6Kw OzInverter, Arduino DUE web monitor.

windguy

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2013, 02:49:29 AM »
Free diversion-type controller circuit & partlist here:
Sorry ; the web link has been removed. The advertisement on there alone is a big no no on this forum.
Bruce S
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 02:49:02 AM by Bruce S »

windguy

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2013, 03:09:29 AM »
Well if free knowledge is advertising then it is.

You can find the circuit in my sig.

Bruce S

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2013, 03:19:29 AM »
After reading your "site" I have removed your sig as well, do not add it back.
Your site has too many incorrect levels of settings that would hurt battery life.


« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 03:26:33 AM by Bruce S »
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windguy

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2013, 11:25:12 AM »
I see your brains are rotten very badly. Bet you feel very powerfull when moderating here. If i would be owner of this site, i would remove your admistration rights immediadly. You clearly dont know enything about car batteries or voltage levels so why you said enything to this? Tell me what did i wrote wrong there?

If you cant answer my question then you could just ban me.

DamonHD

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2013, 11:30:05 AM »
Banned for uncalled-for rudeness.

And if more than one respected user here thinks that it is your brains that are rotten, even if too polite to say so, then you lose.

Rgds

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ChrisOlson

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2013, 05:23:04 PM »
I see your brains are rotten very badly.

RBS (Rotten Brain Syndrome); typically caused by watching too much Oprah.

Most people here watch Duck Dynasty, which is the only known cure for RBS    :o
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Bruce S

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Re: Charge controllers
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2013, 07:10:11 PM »
ChrisO, I watched Masterchef Junior :), while trying a new dry rub with with pecan wood for smoke on a pork butt, while the wife made a flourless chocolate cake with cremeonglaze <-sp? old school french style.
OF course the RBS could be from too much DRS (dry rub smoking). ::)


DamonHD, thanks for the assist, a going away party for our daughter while she awaits orders to fly out the Sacramento, for updated responder classes. This is looking to be an "interesting" year for them.

Windguy; Obviously I proved quickly what I thought, and wrote.  >:(
Had you even taken 1/2 the time to read 1/2 as many of my posts and I read ALL of yours you would know I've forgotten more about car and military sized batteries than you've thought to think about, and I'm fairly sure you've not read the FAQs for this forum.
Here's a hint (11.7Vdc is a deathnell for car batteries or another 12Vdc rated battery).

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