Author Topic: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)  (Read 32221 times)

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12AX7

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Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« on: April 09, 2013, 04:02:45 PM »
Dear diary..


For those who haven't heard my whining about our basement,  a quick recap.

Our house is about 50 feet from a small river,  and our basement floor has to be very close to the height of the river when it's at it's normal level.  Meaning when the river is high,  our basement floor is lower than the river.  This isn't a problem when the river is high but the local water table is low.   This is NOT THE CASE after LONG periods of heavy rain OR.. Long periods of rain in early spring,  when the ground thaws (and lots of snow melt)   Our house is old, cement block walls and a poured cement (lots of cracks) floor.  Sealing the floor doesn't work as the hydrostatic pressure will lift sections of the floor and break any sealant.    I've investigated and it was suggested to "let it leak and pump it out"
We have one sump and one "wash pit"   Of course there's one pump in the sump,  and I've got TWO pedestal pumps in the wash pit.   

Last spring/year was very dry and only after the heaviest of rains did 'wet spots'  appear in our basement.

Several years ago our sump pump ran..   24/7 for close to two weeks,  during that time the other sump pump (primary) cycled about every few minutes.

Needless to say..  this year is looking to be another record breaker.    Currently the river is up over (just) it's banks and they are talking about rain all week.

Just checked the pumps out and the Sump Pump's duty cycle is Off for 12 seconds and on for 8 seconds.   There's water running 'everywhere' over our basement floor and a few spots where little geysers about 1/4indi shooting up about 3 inches.

I just installed my doc watson meter..    about 10.3amps   690watts
Time to double check our generator  and get some gas.

Now..   do I have reason to whine,  or is your basement wetter?

P.S.    Bought the house from my mom,  and knew about the water issue.  It's really a special location,  lots of wildlife and good trout fishing (although we don't eat fish)   *L*

OperaHouse

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2013, 07:21:56 PM »
So who needs a basement?  I can easily get a couple feet in my basement and I'm 25 feet above the river on a cliff.  I've been filling in my basement over the years about 15 inches higher than the existing floor.  Old concrete blocks and whatever capped with a 4x8x16 concrete block.  It started out just getting me a path to the water meter, then to some other key places.  After a number of years a lot of it is done.  Moved the furnace out years ago.  Point is you can't fight nature.

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2013, 10:10:27 PM »
Well..    I need a basement.   I don't expect to make it into a "man cave"  nor do we keep anything of value down there,  except our furnace and water heater.   Our well head (sealed with cement) is also in the basement,  as well as a clean out for our septic system (lets not talk about that).     I'm 6`3 (and shrinking)  and our basement is about 5'10  so I'm already walking stooped over.   

Just checked the Watson,  it's been plugged in for 6hr 10min.  and has logged 2.0 KWHs so far.   I should have installed it three days ago.

Was thinking of my install.   The pump (submersible) has the check valve mounted at the pump,  then have about 6ft of flexible hose (1 1/4 id)  and it's then connected to a 1 1/4OD pipe thru the wall.   Although there's about 6ft of hose,  the total lift can't be more than 4 ft.
The start-up  is 11.7amps  and drops to about  10.3 towards the end of it's run cycle. 

I think I'm wasting power by having more hose (water volume/weight) than what's really needed,  or am I just picking at nits?

One of the reasons for the length of hose is to take up the torque (back lash) in the pump's start up.    It's recoil is almost 1/8 turn(rotation), and hard PVC frequently would crack or the rubber right angle connector would loosen up (and that's a BAD thing!)

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2013, 03:59:21 PM »
Just check the kill a watt meter..   
used 8.2kwh's in one 24 hour period.  I expect that value will almost double for the next 24 hours as the pump is off for about 5secs (almost running steady).

Our river is up,  thinks it's as high as I have ever seen it....  forecast,  more rain!

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2013, 06:41:45 PM »
Okay,   the Kill-a-watt meter has been on-line for 50hrs and during that time  the sump pump has used 20.5kwhrs.   Note that's just one pump.   The secondary pump is running about 1 every 5 minutes.

dbcollen

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2013, 07:09:59 PM »
just turn off the pumps and have an indoor swimming pool  :)

ghurd

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2013, 09:33:17 PM »
Well..    I need a basement. 

then have about 6ft of flexible hose (1 1/4 id)  and it's then connected to a 1 1/4OD pipe thru the wall.   Although there's about 6ft of hose,  the total lift can't be more than 4 ft.

I think I'm wasting power by having more hose (water volume/weight) than what's really needed,  or am I just picking at nits?

One of the reasons for the length of hose is to take up the torque (back lash) in the pump's start up.    It's recoil is almost 1/8 turn(rotation), and hard PVC frequently would crack or the rubber right angle connector would loosen up (and that's a BAD thing!)

My folks need a basement too.  Furnace, woodburner, water heater, washer, dryer, planner, joiner, etc.
Put it underwater, and it costs a lot to replace.

Define "flexible hose (1 1/4 id)".
The cheap black stuff that looks like... a spring? wastes a LOT of power.


"or the rubber right angle connector would loosen up"
Strange.  Mostly because a rubber right angle connector is so expensive, but it is not as good, usually.
A long 90 degree PVC elbow is better in every respect, usually.

"hard PVC frequently would crack"
Strange.  I have a lot of experience with them, and I never saw that happen.

If it was me, I would get rid of any cheap black corrigated pipe, tight 90' turns, 90' turns unless very very wide...
and make the pipe larger diameter (2").
G-
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12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2013, 11:08:34 PM »
Well..    I need a basement. 

then have about 6ft of flexible hose (1 1/4 id)  and it's then connected to a 1 1/4OD pipe thru the wall.   Although there's about 6ft of hose,  the total lift can't be more than 4 ft.

I think I'm wasting power by having more hose (water volume/weight) than what's really needed,  or am I just picking at nits?

One of the reasons for the length of hose is to take up the torque (back lash) in the pump's start up.    It's recoil is almost 1/8 turn(rotation), and hard PVC frequently would crack or the rubber right angle connector would loosen up (and that's a BAD thing!)

My folks need a basement too.  Furnace, woodburner, water heater, washer, dryer, planner, joiner, etc.
Put it underwater, and it costs a lot to replace.

Define "flexible hose (1 1/4 id)".
The cheap black stuff that looks like... a spring? wastes a LOT of power.


"or the rubber right angle connector would loosen up"
Strange.  Mostly because a rubber right angle connector is so expensive, but it is not as good, usually.
A long 90 degree PVC elbow is better in every respect, usually.

"hard PVC frequently would crack"
Strange.  I have a lot of experience with them, and I never saw that happen.

If it was me, I would get rid of any cheap black corrigated pipe, tight 90' turns, 90' turns unless very very wide...
and make the pipe larger diameter (2").
G-

Hello ghurd..

The hose (1 1/4ID) is not that cheap flexible spiral hose.   This is smooth wall,  thick and heavy.     And I did do away with the rubber right angle adapter.    The outlet of the pump is 1 1/4 so I don't think a 2in hose/pipe would help.    The id of the check valve is a bit smaller than 1 1/4,  and the pipe that runs thru the wall is really the main restriction,  it's an old heating oil fill pipe and it's OD is 1 1/4  and I can't say for sure what it's ID is.


Oh..  forgot one important item..  reason for needing a basement..


Darren73

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2013, 02:52:26 PM »
Not sure of the lay of your land so unsure if any of these options are feasible.

1, If the lowest point on your property is below your basement could you install a siphon system to drain some of the water away?

2, Could you use the flow of the river through a venturi pump to suck some of the water away?

3, Minimise the distance the pump has to move the water, by this I mean let gravity do some of the work if possible, it can be more efficient to pump the water up a little higher and discharge it into a larger pipe that naturally falls toward the drain than pump it all the way to the drain.

Also while I appreciate your pump only has an outlet of 1.5" using a larger hose reduces the back pressure the pump has to work against to overcome the friction loss in addition to the real head. by increasing the pipe work size depending on the pump curve it may increase the outlet flow, reduce power consumption or even a combination of the two.

Hope some of the above is of help, I used to have a pumped system for a pit in my garden, however by a little lateral thinking and some careful installation I now have a siphon system that uses no pumps or power, just an occasional priming with a garden hose if the siphon gets an airlock in it.

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2013, 04:42:19 PM »
Not sure of the lay of your land so unsure if any of these options are feasible.

1, If the lowest point on your property is below your basement could you install a siphon system to drain some of the water away?

2, Could you use the flow of the river through a venturi pump to suck some of the water away?

3, Minimise the distance the pump has to move the water, by this I mean let gravity do some of the work if possible, it can be more efficient to pump the water up a little higher and discharge it into a larger pipe that naturally falls toward the drain than pump it all the way to the drain.

Also while I appreciate your pump only has an outlet of 1.5" using a larger hose reduces the back pressure the pump has to work against to overcome the friction loss in addition to the real head. by increasing the pipe work size depending on the pump curve it may increase the outlet flow, reduce power consumption or even a combination of the two.

Hope some of the above is of help, I used to have a pumped system for a pit in my garden, however by a little lateral thinking and some careful installation I now have a siphon system that uses no pumps or power, just an occasional priming with a garden hose if the siphon gets an airlock in it.

Hello..
The lowest part of our yard currently has the river flowing over it.   I don't believe that any sort of river current driven device/pump would pump a significant amount of water (no enough to make a difference).
Years ago I thought of installing a "run of river water wheel"  to run a generator to supply power for the sump pumps.  To much canoe traffic and fisher persons to risk it.

I've decreased the pumping distance as much as I can,  the pump lifts the water about 5 1/2 ft total,  and from there it runs thru (gravity) a buried 6in pvc pipe to a few feet from the river.


Just checked the kill-a-watt meter    online so far 95hrs and 37.5kwhs.  Pump almost running continuously.    I'm surprised that it's float switch has lasted so long.   I installed this pump over three years ago.

note again,   this is just one pump.   Second pump cycles about 1once every 5 min.

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2013, 07:28:49 PM »
Kill-a-watt meter now 101hrs total..    during that time,  used 45.6kwhrs.  -

I'm wondering how many gallons of water have been pumped.

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2013, 08:26:42 PM »
Kill-a-watt meter now 101hrs total..    during that time,  used 45.6kwhrs.  -

I'm wondering how many gallons of water have been pumped.



Well...  I got to thinking..    I don't recall the exact model of the sump pump,  but I believe that it's a 3/4hp Wayne.   Their site say's that their 3/4 hp pump is rated at 4300gph @ 5ft lift.   

Running some numbers (fast and loose), using 45.5kwh  45.5/.740=61.49hrs (time pump has run)     61.49x4000gph (pumping a bit higher than 4ft with a slight id restriction)  = 245,945.9 gallons of water pumped in the last 101 hrs.   

I'm sure we have "at least"  another week of wet/pumping weather ahead of us.   oh geeze..     I gotta make sure my back up genny is ready!

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2013, 06:15:19 PM »
Well..  the good new is,  the pumps (and power) are still working.

Last checked,   total time on meter is 114hrs  and 56kwhrs

estimated gallons now pumped..  302,702 gallons,  and it just started raining again.   

Looking at it another way..  our local utility charges 0.118 per/kwhr
$6.61.   In the big picture...   I have to admit that electric power is CHEAP.

of course..  it just started to rain again and I expect we'll be pumping for another week.

OperaHouse

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2013, 03:35:47 AM »
Do you have a check valve?  My parents had a pump and when it shut off it would half way fill up the sump with returning water.  Check valves are very restrictive In other installations I have made just above the pump the highest elevation with a vent.  This allows long lengths of pipe to drain away from pump.  They sell these check valve vents for non code sinks.

My camp had a natural drain that didn;t require pumping.  Not exactly natural, it went into a pipe.  Then my neighbor had some backhoe work on his property.  After that the basement filled up and had to get an electric pump.At upgrade time I just moved furnace upstairs.  Sometime later the power company disconnected me from the gris by a paperwork foul up.  That got me off the gris 15 yEars ago.

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2013, 02:21:47 PM »
Hello..

Yes,   I have a check valve on the pump,  and it appears to be still functioning.   I'd have to pull the pump out to confirm,  and at the rate the water is entering the water would  be up to my ankles before I could get it back on-line so checking it at this time isn't an option.   


DanG

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2013, 03:10:02 PM »
A trick to keep the hard plastic pipe from stressing 'too much' on a long (6-7 foot) vertical run away from the pump...

Place a dog leg ┌┘ from two 90° elbows and 6 to 12 inch horizontal insert on the vertical pipe.

This allows the torsion kick forces of the pump start-up to be spread across a larger area, damped by the flex of the horizontal section.

I think I'd be digging an outdoor sump and do some area drainage without causing more water flow under the basement slab - given enough years it can erode the compacted foundation bases and cause settling. Intercept the water before it gets under the house footprint, well maybe unless you live IN the river...

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2013, 04:02:25 PM »
A trick to keep the hard plastic pipe from stressing 'too much' on a long (6-7 foot) vertical run away from the pump...

Place a dog leg ┌┘ from two 90° elbows and 6 to 12 inch horizontal insert on the vertical pipe.

This allows the torsion kick forces of the pump start-up to be spread across a larger area, damped by the flex of the horizontal section.

I think I'd be digging an outdoor sump and do some area drainage without causing more water flow under the basement slab - given enough years it can erode the compacted foundation bases and cause settling. Intercept the water before it gets under the house footprint, well maybe unless you live IN the river...

Hello..

Interesting idea about the dog leg.   However now that I have the pump tied in with a length of flex hose stress fractures aren't a problem.

There are cut stone ( 10x20in??) walls on either side of the river,  and looking at old county maps (1800s) it appears that there once was a railroad trestle that ran across them,  which means our house is located right on top of an old railroad bed.  Several years ago my wife wanted a small water garden between our house and the river.   I dug a pit about 8ftdi and about 3 1/2ft deep.   Out of it I pulled 4 small boulders about 2-3 ft across.   About 2 years ago I started digging a small pit (opposite side of house) with the intentions of (as you suggested) installing an outdoor sump basin.  Nothing but rocks (it was a dry summer) and about 4 1/2 ft down ran into water.  Mind you, at this time my basement was dry.  Dropped in a 1/3 hp skimmer pump and it ran (and so did the water) as long as I left it plugged in. 

I came to the conclusion that there is a natural fresh water spring running right under my basement floor and decided that it would be just as easy (easier) to pump water from my sump and out to the river.   But I might reconsider that now.

Last check and rough est.    I figure that since I installed the kill-a-watt meter we've pumped about 340,000 gallons. 

Thank heaven that all this water is Xtal clear,  I should be in the bottled water business!

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2013, 09:01:36 PM »
Last check,  75.25KWHRs      75.25/.740=101.69x4000=406,756

406,756 gallons of water pumped (since meter installed) and from just one pump.     The good news is,   the expected rain missed us to the south (Chicago got it).

On another note,  I suspect that the Kill-a-Watt meter is no longer reading laps hours properly since it rolled over from 99hrs.

Correction!   Just checked  the Kill-a-Watt (P3) manual on line.
I starts reading hours:minutes 00:00    (99:59)   when it rolls over it reads total hours (00100) 

So current total hours are 220.   

406,756/7.48= 54,379 cubic feet of water?

our house is about 1200sqft    and our basement is less than 6ft.   that means we could have filled the basement to the ceiling over 7 times!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 09:25:10 PM by 12AX7 »

Mary B

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2013, 03:02:58 PM »
wonder if you extended the hose into the river a siphon effect would take over. Make sure to have a check valve in place to prevent back flow.

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2013, 11:29:35 PM »
wonder if you extended the hose into the river a siphon effect would take over. Make sure to have a check valve in place to prevent back flow.

Hello MaryAlana..

I talked about this with a friend,  and we both came to the conclusion that in theory it might work,  however the "suction" would be insignificant compared to the amount of water entering the basement.

Latest numbers..   83.2kwhrs     112.4 hrs @ 4000gph = 449,600 gallon
@ 3700gph   it's 415,880 gallons.
(the pump is rated at 4300gph)

tecker

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2013, 01:23:13 PM »
I fill my garden drums with a sump pump It has to lift 4 feet there abouts I put a T on the discharge with a check valve to a pick up tube to the runoff source . All I have to do is run the pump for a minute to prime the siphon down line .

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2013, 11:47:40 PM »
I fill my garden drums with a sump pump It has to lift 4 feet there abouts I put a T on the discharge with a check valve to a pick up tube to the runoff source . All I have to do is run the pump for a minute to prime the siphon down line .

Hello..
As stated,  the total lift is a little over 4ft,  from there it's all gravity out to the river.


Latest numbers..   Total laps time 274hrs..  88.8kwhrs   3/4 hp..  88.8/.740= 120hrs (pump run time)     120x4000gph=480,000 gallons of water pumped (so far)   (since kill-o-watt meter installed)

Five more hours of pump run time will top 500,000 gallons    umm   1/2 MILLION GALLONS   and I'm sure that if I would have installed the meter at the beginning of the thaw we'd be well over 1/2 million already.  Wild a$$ guess,   we've already pumped over 3/4 million gallons.

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2013, 03:09:45 PM »
Laps time  285hrs   92kwhrs  92/.740= 124.3hr (total pump run time)
124.3x4000gph= 497,297 gallons pumped.


birdhouse

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2013, 11:11:20 PM »
WOW, just WOW.

if money wasn't an issue, i'd just fill the basement with concrete, crane the house up a story, and pour a new "above ground basement"... ;)

in all reality though, would it be a option to let the basement fill to say 1' level, then have a big boy 220V pump pump it back to dry?  it would be a far more robust/reliable system, though probably a $$$ pump. 

from what i understand, those pumps don't die from running, but cycling. 

are you worried about mold ect?  maybe a solid moisture barrier to the underside of the joists? 

adam

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2013, 12:27:47 AM »
WOW, just WOW.

if money wasn't an issue, i'd just fill the basement with concrete, crane the house up a story, and pour a new "above ground basement"... ;)

in all reality though, would it be a option to let the basement fill to say 1' level, then have a big boy 220V pump pump it back to dry?  it would be a far more robust/reliable system, though probably a $$$ pump. 

from what i understand, those pumps don't die from running, but cycling. 

are you worried about mold ect?  maybe a solid moisture barrier to the underside of the joists? 

adam

Hello Birdhouse..
I suspect that if I wouldn't pump the water out that the maximum level would probably be around 2-3 feet deep.   At which point the height would be level with the local water table.    Of course by this time the furnace would be under water, along with most of the "stuff" we store down there.

We have seen some mold,  but a little bit of elbow grease and bleach has always taken care of it.

Yeah,  it would be nice to have the money to do that..  however (and it's a big one)  as I've said,  we're close to the river,  and the fact is that we're IN the flood plain.   And far enough into it that any type of building permit would have to be approved by the DNR.

Someone once told me that "if" we ever did any major work (with a permit)   that a "door may open"  where the DNR would have some say about our septic system and that's a area where I don't EVER wanna go!

I have serious doubts that we could ever sell our house due to mandatory inspections required by most all mortgage/loan companies.

We purchased the house from my mom,  and lived here for over a year before we purchased it.   Since we lived here for a over a year the mortgage company did not require an inspection. 

A quick comment about FLOOD INSURANCE    We don't have it,  and we "CAN'T" get it.   Before you can qualify your "town"  "city"  "community"  has to partake in the FEDERAL FLOOD Insurance plan.  That would require them to follow all rules and regulations established by the FED,  including building/installing any/all types of flood controls.   

Simen

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2013, 01:27:45 AM »
The best solution would be to drain the ground just outside your basement wall. Just dig away the dirt around the wall to approx. 10" below the underside of the basement floor; put down a drainpipe all around (the flexible kind with holes on one side), fill with gravel over the pipe and backfill around the wall... Lay the drainpipe a way out downwards from the house.

This is often done here in Norway to older houses. (it has been part of the building code the last 30-40 years.)
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wpowokal

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2013, 06:01:14 PM »
If I read this thread correctly, you have a submersible pump (you write of needing back pressure on start up) pumping out a basement on what is a very low head and this is causing you concerns about power consumption.

OK first thing is to take a bucket of known volume, place it under the outlet pipe while using a stop watch (phone, actual stop watch) and come back to us with that figure plus an accurate lift  (lowest water level to the point at which the discharge pipe leaves the basement), we will ignore the NSPH of the discharge pipe from highest point to actual discharge as it is small.

As I read it you have a man doing a boys job, if it is a true submersible pump and I doubt that as it would have burnt out by now (max. 3 starts/hour to allow windings to cool off). So precisely what pump do you have in service currently?  And what is the secondary pump?

Empowered with this knowledge we can advise a solution, Simen's solution is valid, but I suspect would still require a pump because of your location relative to river as opposed to just general ground water..

Allan in Far North Queensland Australia [(FNQ) F*****g Nothing Quickly]
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12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2013, 10:19:10 PM »
The best solution would be to drain the ground just outside your basement wall. Just dig away the dirt around the wall to approx. 10" below the underside of the basement floor; put down a drainpipe all around (the flexible kind with holes on one side), fill with gravel over the pipe and backfill around the wall... Lay the drainpipe a way out downwards from the house.

This is often done here in Norway to older houses. (it has been part of the building code the last 30-40 years.)

Hello!

Well, the problem is that the water table (during spring thaw and/or after days/weeks of heavy rain) is "higher" than our basement floor.  Any drain tile will simply be under the water table.   The "highest" point isn't any higher  than the height of the near by river.

Installing a pump "outside"  would probably run constantly,  and I doubt that it could pump the water table low enough to stop the water from flowing into the basement.

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2013, 11:00:57 PM »
If I read this thread correctly, you have a submersible pump (you write of needing back pressure on start up) pumping out a basement on what is a very low head and this is causing you concerns about power consumption.

OK first thing is to take a bucket of known volume, place it under the outlet pipe while using a stop watch (phone, actual stop watch) and come back to us with that figure plus an accurate lift  (lowest water level to the point at which the discharge pipe leaves the basement), we will ignore the NSPH of the discharge pipe from highest point to actual discharge as it is small.


 So precisely what pump do you have in service currently?  And what is the secondary pump?

Empowered with this knowledge we can advise a solution, Simen's solution is valid, but I suspect would still require a pump because of your location relative to river as opposed to just general ground water..

Allan in Far North Queensland Australia [(FNQ) F*****g Nothing Quickly]

Hello..

Yes,  the primary pump is a "submersible" pump.  No,  I certainly didn't mean to say that it needs back up pressure to start.  I did say that I wonder about the amount of head pressure (weight of water in the hose) causing a increase in power consumption.

....As I read it you have a man doing a boys job, if it is a true submersible pump and I doubt that as it would have burnt out by now (max. 3 starts/hour to allow windings to cool off).....

It certainly IS a "true" submersible pump,  The water temp is COLD, although I didn't check it with a thermometer, but a wild a$$ guess is it's about 45-50f.  And it had better be a "MAN"  because a "boy"  would be way way over his head (and fast).

Latest laps time is 318hrs.   and consumption is 99.1kwhrs
99.1/.740 *3/4hp* = 133.9 total hours the pump has run.

As I said,  it's a Wayne 3/4hp  and a few years old,  here is a link to it's current replacement (although I'm sure that the over all specs really haven't changed)
http://www.waynepumps.com/solution-center/sump-pumps-cast-iron/cdu980e

I happen to have another Wayne also 3/4hp as a backup (new not installed)

The secondary pump (installed in a dry sump/collection basin) is a 1/2hp pedestal style pump and it's back (yes, a back up to the back up) up (installed along side the secondary pump) is another 1/2hp pedestal pump.

As a back up to the back up back up is a 1/3hp "skimmer" pump,  but it is all manual (doesn't have a float switch).

I post here not so much to get ideas/opinions...  but more so to WHINE and also to point out to those who "think" that they have a wet basement (and whine about it) that perhaps they really haven't much to complain about.

Since I've been posting here... and keeping a close(er) eye on the Kill-a-Watt meter it has occurred to me that there might be a "better" system.   So Now I will pose a question and looking for ideas/opinion.

I wonder if a variable speed pump might not be more efficient?
Perhaps,  rather than having a simple float switch,  a "analog" type sensor to monitor water depth (in sump pit) and ramp power up when the water is rising fast and ramp it down (and off)  when/as water flow slows down.
This, in theory would greatly decrease that extra current draw at each start-up (run cycle).

Simen

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2013, 12:21:37 AM »
How about a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD)? http://www.vfds.com/vfd-buying-guide.

I'd think a gasoline tank style float could be used as a level sensor. :)
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Frank S

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2013, 04:16:59 AM »
I guess that  a soil stabilization all around the house through injection would be out of the question
a mixture of 45%bentonite ,45% bitumen  and  a 10% diluted 1-10 caustic soda solution to act as a catalyst injected through a pipe to a depth about 4 or five feet below the basement foundation all the way up to just below grade every 6 to 10 inches around the entire house  or another soil thickening mixture should hepl to slow or possibly stop your water problem . you would probably need to drill the floor in a grid pattern every 3 sq foot and inject there as well
 Over time if you don't stem the flow of water it is going to undermine the house
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2013, 06:17:14 PM »
How about a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD)? http://www.vfds.com/vfd-buying-guide.

I'd think a gasoline tank style float could be used as a level sensor. :)

Yes,  I was thinking that a variable freq drive would be the way to go.  Rather than using a variable resistor (where it's almost ALWAYS humid) a sonic (analog output) prox sensor might be better suited.
unfortunately,  both a VFD and a sonic sensor are a bit out of my price range at this time.   

Are there inexpensive freq drives out there?

12AX7

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Re: Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2013, 06:25:21 PM »
I guess that  a soil stabilization all around the house through injection would be out of the question
a mixture of 45%bentonite ,45% bitumen  and  a 10% diluted 1-10 caustic soda solution to act as a catalyst injected through a pipe to a depth about 4 or five feet below the basement foundation all the way up to just below grade every 6 to 10 inches around the entire house  or another soil thickening mixture should hepl to slow or possibly stop your water problem . you would probably need to drill the floor in a grid pattern every 3 sq foot and inject there as well
 Over time if you don't stem the flow of water it is going to undermine the house

Interesting idea,  any idea what it costs?   Are these chemicals environment friendly?   I don't want to risk dumping nasty stuff into the river (and my shallow well).  Is this process anything like mud jacking?

Another big concern is the soil.   As I've mentioned,  our house sits on top of an old (very) rail road bed.  Any where around our house....  if you dig a 1 cubic foot hole,  you need to remove 1 cubic yard of rocks and stones.   I don't think one could drill four feet unless you have a long masonry drill bit and a powerful hammer drill.


latest numbers...   laps 332hrs...    102kwhrs    that's 137.8 hr run time
137.8x4000= 551,200 gallons of water pumped.