Sump Pump Duty Cycle (my basement is wetter than yours)

[Frank S]

Interesting idea,  any idea what it costs?   Are these chemicals environment friendly?   I don't want to risk dumping nasty stuff into the river (and my shallow well).  Is this process anything like mud jacking?

Another big concern is the soil.   As I've mentioned,  our house sits on top of an old (very) rail road bed.  Any where around our house....  if you dig a 1 cubic foot hole,  you need to remove 1 cubic yard of rocks and stones.   I don't think one could drill four feet unless you have a long masonry drill bit and a powerful hammer drill.


latest numbers...   laps 332hrs...    102kwhrs    that's 137.8 hr run time
137.8x4000= 551,200 gallons of water pumped.

Soil stabilizing is commonly done in new housing additions especially where the substrate is loose or there is an overburden of black gumbo clay or where the water table is high. to aid in preventing upheaval and foundation problems. This has to be done by a licensed contractor preferably one with a civil engineering background.
 I used to lease a space to a guy who was in that business. I built him several injection probe bars and mounted them on 977 Cat loaders. The probes were 10 to 12 feet long and made out of heat treated tubes .250" id 1.125" OD.
 Over in Kuwait they inject to block the water. All buildings there have basements from 2 to 6 floors deep and the water table in the city is less than 6 feet  under the surface Stabilization for excavation can take months sometimes they will have 3 to 8  300 or 400 Horsepower pumps drawing water from pipes driven in the ground every 3 feet around the perimeter running 24/7 for up to a year

[bart]

   Although I'd love to have a home on the river, would not want your problem.
As a long time river rat, your plight intrigues me and would like to ask some questions.
At normal flow, how far are you elevated from the river? I think you said you were 50' away.
Are you on a outside corner of the river?
Are you on the downward slope of this old railway bed?  And if so, is the water being channeled through your basement?
  A lot of the old and currently used railways follow the natural course of streams. When floating, come across them all the time.
Lots of rock around your house would seem normal for a bed for rails.
   For a source for VFD's, if your close to some one who does Commercial / Industrial HVAC, might give them a call. On equipment change outs, most of the guys don't know what to do with old drives and trash them. Thats how I got mine.
  Here is a not to expensive source, but I know nothing about this brand.
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_(115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control)
   Have no idea as far as a submersible pump.

[12AX7]

Interesting idea,  any idea what it costs?   Are these chemicals environment friendly?   I don't want to risk dumping nasty stuff into the river (and my shallow well).  Is this process anything like mud jacking?

Another big concern is the soil.   As I've mentioned,  our house sits on top of an old (very) rail road bed.  Any where around our house....  if you dig a 1 cubic foot hole,  you need to remove 1 cubic yard of rocks and stones.   I don't think one could drill four feet unless you have a long masonry drill bit and a powerful hammer drill.


latest numbers...   laps 332hrs...    102kwhrs    that's 137.8 hr run time
137.8x4000= 551,200 gallons of water pumped.

Soil stabilizing is commonly done in new housing additions especially where the substrate is loose or there is an overburden of black gumbo clay or where the water table is high. to aid in preventing upheaval and foundation problems. This has to be done by a licensed contractor preferably one with a civil engineering background.
 I used to lease a space to a guy who was in that business. I built him several injection probe bars and mounted them on 977 Cat loaders. The probes were 10 to 12 feet long and made out of heat treated tubes .250" id 1.125" OD.
 Over in Kuwait they inject to block the water. All buildings there have basements from 2 to 6 floors deep and the water table in the city is less than 6 feet  under the surface Stabilization for excavation can take months sometimes they will have 3 to 8  300 or 400 Horsepower pumps drawing water from pipes driven in the ground every 3 feet around the perimeter running 24/7 for up to a year

I'll check around here,  but I don't believe that we have soft soil problems around here.   We're located on the outer  edge of the "Kettle Moraine" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettle_Moraine  and most of the ground is tight packed rock/gravel.
Here is the river  we're located near..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullet_River

[12AX7]

   Although I'd love to have a home on the river, would not want your problem.
As a long time river rat, your plight intrigues me and would like to ask some questions.
At normal flow, how far are you elevated from the river? I think you said you were 50' away.
Are you on a outside corner of the river?
Are you on the downward slope of this old railway bed?  And if so, is the water being channeled through your basement?
  A lot of the old and currently used railways follow the natural course of streams. When floating, come across them all the time.
Lots of rock around your house would seem normal for a bed for rails.
   For a source for VFD's, if your close to some one who does Commercial / Industrial HVAC, might give them a call. On equipment change outs, most of the guys don't know what to do with old drives and trash them. Thats how I got mine.
  Here is a not to expensive source, but I know nothing about this brand.
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_(115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control)
   Have no idea as far as a submersible pump.

When the river is at it's "normal" flow our basement floor is a couple of inches above the river's surface.    Most of the time this isn't a problem,  with brief "high water" (due to heavy rains)  our basement will often remain dry.   Heavy rains,  high river..   for a a week or two and things start to get wet.
The river flows fairly straight past our house,  although there is a small section (right next to our house)   where there are old stone walls on either side of the river which is the most narrow part of the river for a few hundred yards in either up or down stream.

Your link doesn't work for me..   "page not found"

[smidy]

if the river flows fast maybe you could use a siphone and let mother nature pump it for you for free and automatic.

[bart]

  Try this.
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives

[electrondady1]

why not just jack your house up and pour a new floor ?

[12AX7]

if the river flows fast maybe you could use a siphone and let mother nature pump it for you for free and automatic.

Hello.. 
This was already brought up..  a siphon wouldn't keep up with the volume of water entering.   Plus,  it would be difficult to ensure that air wouldn't enter the siphon's line. 
Another issue is that the DNR doesn't allow pipes/hoses/tubes for drainage purposes to enter into the river.

[12AX7]

  Try this.
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives

Yes,  that link works..  I'll have to do some reading.

[12AX7]

why not just jack your house up and pour a new floor ?

The problem is we're in the flood plain,  and close enough to the river that the DNR has to okay the building permit,  and it's been suggested that "if"  the DNR get's involved that they would insist onsite inspection,  which would draw unwanted attention to our septic system.   And that's a door I want to keep closed and locked tight!

on a side note,   WI enacted a law that requires an septic system inspection every three years.   Inspections are done by septic pumping services, and we've past the last 3 inspections.   I guess "location"  isn't one of the items requested on the inspection form.

last check of numbers..
Laps time now 360 hrs (15days)   106kwhrs     143.2hrs(pump run time)*4000=572,972 gallons pumped.

edited a math mistake! 

[electrondady1]

the building permit

[12AX7]

the building permit

*L*   yes,  no permits.   And our house can be seen from the county high way.

another funny thing..  about 30 years ago the WDNR put up an office building about 100 yards away,  and about 8 years ago they relocated.   I suspect that they didn't want people to question them about building in a flood plain.

[tecker]

I don't know how deep the collection well is . I assume there is one for this sump . I think you can use a 1minute on delay timer and the float switch to start stop the pump for  a siphon on the discharge pipe to save some juice

[12AX7]

Latest numbers    Total laps time is now 404hrs  112kwhrs used.  by math that means the pump has run 112/.740=151.4hrs
151.4x4000gpm= 605,405 gallons pumped.

I've been thinking of the  siphon idea and don't think it would work,  as the bottom of the sump (from where I'm pumping water)   is LOWER than the point where the water is being discharged.   The only way a siphon would work would be if the discharge would be at the bottom part of the river,  and the DNR would not allow any discharge (pipe/hose) entering the river.
Currently I discharge the water on my lawn, several feet from the river.

[DamonHD]

What about digging a soakaway (hole/pind) in your lawn?  If that happened to be leaky to the river...

You'd not be doing anything different to water flow than is now happening.

Rgds

Damon

[12AX7]

What about digging a soakaway (hole/pind) in your lawn?  If that happened to be leaky to the river...

You'd not be doing anything different to water flow than is now happening.

Rgds

Damon

As I've said,   I discharge the water on my lawn,  several feet away from the river.   At that point of the yard there is a slight slop down towards the river,  and the pumped water flows on it's own into the river.

Latest numbers.    Total laps time on Kill-a-Watt meter    480hrs(20days)  119kwhrs used.  3/4hp pump/4000gph     119/.740=160.8hrsx4000=643,243 total gallons pumped.  Again,  this total doesn't include the water pumped by the back up pump and only 20days where as we've been pumping probably for an additional 7 days.

The good news is..   we've had a few days of nice weather (spring like!)  and the river has dropped over a foot and water seepage into the basement is much slower.   Although there is still a steady "trickle"  flowing across the floor and into the sump basin.

The bad news is..   we're suppose to have another week of rainy weather. 

[DamonHD]

The point about the pond was to lower the output of the syphon to as near river level as makes no odds, while not actually discharging direct to the river.

Rgds

Damon

[12AX7]

The point about the pond was to lower the output of the syphon to as near river level as makes no odds, while not actually discharging direct to the river.

Rgds

Damon

Hello..
The problem is that the water table (during spring thaw combined with heavy snow cover and heavy rain) is as high as the river.   No matter where I would dig,  I'd run into the water "before"  I'd get lower than my basement.


Latest numbers  Laps time  528hrs (22days)  121kwhrs  (pump draws 740watts)   121/.740=163.5hrs (time pump has run)    163.5x4000(pump/gph)= 654,054 gallons pumped (OUT OF BASEMENT)

a side note..   local electric rates are  $0.12(rounded up) per kwhr.  121x0.12=$14.52      $14.52 to pump 654,000 gallons of water.  When you (I) look at it that way the electric rates sound like a good deal.

I own a Generac XL4000 (it's several years old but total run time can't be more than several hours)), not sure of it's specs,  but I wonder how many gallons of gas it would have used over 22 days?
I wonder IF it would have run for 22 days?
It's awful loud,  I don't know if I could have put up with it for that long.

[Mary B]

Ground stabilization pumping could make the basement float up during high water events, not a good thing. They tried that in a town I used to live in. Built some house in what used to be a swamp and many floated off level so far they had to be torn down. Next developer tried pilings and couldn't reach bottom with 60 footers.

[12AX7]

Dear Diary..

It's been awhile since I've updated the numbers, although we're approaching the dry season here our pump is still cycling (although not often).

Latest numbers     Total hours monitored 1704  or 71days.
During that time   a total of 150kwhrs used.   avg power is about 740watts  so that is about 150k/.740=202 hours of pump run time.
Pump pumps about 4000gph so that's about   202*4000=810,810. total gallons pumped.

note:   the area where the water is discharged is becoming a soupy mess, So I re-plumbed the discharge to the secondary (backup) sump pumps discharge pipe.  This runs underground directly to the river.

[12AX7]

Dear Diary

Well,   the wet season is almost upon us!   

This winter has been MUCH colder than years past,  and sometime during the first really cold snap (back in November)  temps dropped to -22f  and one evening I heard a loud "crack"  and the whole house shuttered.  Shortly after that I noticed that our sump pump started cycling about every 15 minutes.

Checked the sump and I could see that water was "trickling" into the sump and I think that that loud crack was the ground freezing and causing our local underground (under our basement floor)  spring to change  it's course and lift high enough to encroach into our sump.

It was a bit unsettling to listen to our sump pump cycle all winter, even though the out side temps were often in the below zero range.

Well..   I woke up this morning with the thought  "I hadn't heard the sump pump cycle lately"   even though we have see our first few days of ABOVE FREEZING temps.

Went down into the basement and yup,  the sump hole was over flowing.
Pulled out the old pump,  it was a RIDGED Brand 3/4 hp SS.   I think this pump lasted about 4 years of EXTREMELY HEAVY use.

I had a brand new spare  WAYNE 1/2 hp SS. pump,  and installed it.  We're now "good to go"

HOWEVER,  it's time for me to go out and buy a NEW   pump to have on reserve/standby,  and I need to over come  my problem of "ANALYSIS PARALYSIS"

Around my location there aren't many selections of pump manufactures,  and I wonder if there is/are anyone here that have a strong opinion on sump pumps.
Around here,  it's WAYNE, RIDGED, FLOTEC  and LITTLE GIANT.   I've read a few things online and have seen ZOELLER mentioned as being a great pump (and manufactured in the USA) but I haven't located a local dealer.

OPINIONS ?

[ratman]

12AX7,
I thank you for your posts- made me feel a bit better a few nights ago when my sump pump was running every minute.  It took me a few days to get certified to reply to your last message in March, but I thought I owed it to you for the relief of not being the only one with water issues- and mine could definitely be worse.  We bought our house Fall of 2012.  The end of a drought- never make that mistake again.  House is on a slope from the back, with a 4' retaining wall then about 10-15 feet level before the house.  My first question was about water issues.  I even had a structural engineer come out who made a few minor suggestions on gutter improvements and building up the soil some places.  At the time we had no idea.
It started on Thanksgiving- occasional pumping when it had been awhile since a rain. First Winter it pumped a lot and I had no experience with sumps so I was concerned and read on the net until I found info. about underground springs--and that's what I think I have. 
I have two pumps at opposing corners at the front of my house- the one very seldom runs- the other goes crazy- especially after this past winter. 
I went down during the winter and heard the pump on continuously- but no pumping.  That night I used a backup submersible manual pump to keep it somewhat under control- pumping to my sewer drain.  I pumped a lot of water there.  I also researched pumps and Zoeler seemed to be highly regarded.  I got it at a plumbing supply which is pretty competitive with prices at the local big box stores and usually much better quality.
Anyway, a few days after I bought and installed my pump, I saw the same model at Sears for about $20 less.  I should have bought it right then, but didn't.  I will here soon though.
The first big rain after the snow (we're in Ohio- I think you said you are in Illinois?) that new pump did 15 second off cycles.  Last night it was down to being off every 3 minutes, if my brief history with this is consistent, without additional rain it will continue to diminish.
Many of the other posters on here were a big help, as I may have a possibility of somehow re-routing it or tapping into it in the front of the house as the front of the house has a very good downgrade.  I sure would sleep better if the sump pumps became like tits on a boar!

[Mary B]

Maybe horizontal drill under the house towards the area the water seems to be coming from and drain it out the front?

[thirteen]

Find someone that can witch water and try and find the main part of the flow and maybe dig down and put a drain in or like MaryAlana suggested, drill under the house and put a drain out front. I'm not sure if you have a big enough drain field to handle extra water and where is your drain field? Be sure not to disturb it.  If you have a homeowner insurance policy check on what is covered but do not ask them outright.  Find out your rights first. They might cover things like that. Just an idea 13

[ratman]

Thanks MaryAlana and thirteen.  I may have a temporary solution while I figure a longer term one.  I have a sewer clean out near the sump well, and will try running a siphon to that.  If it works this will take the pressure off of the pump and in essence the siphon would become the main drain temporarily with the sump pump as the backup.  If the pump starts running again, I'll know the water level in the pit had dropped to the point of letting air into the siphon and can reprime the siphon as needed.
I'm interested in hearing from the original poster about where he is at, as this years snow and rain in the midwest has really been excessive- I think- when compared to last year.
Thanks again for the help.

[12AX7]

Well....   in the last few days we've had 4.8" of rain (per rain gauge).   Our river is now flowing across the back corner of our yard (this morning there were one pair of Canadian geese and one pair of mallards "Swimming"  in our yard).

EARLY Sunday morning I woke up to my (home made) "high water alarm".  With high boots went into the basement and found that a joint on my PVC pipe let loose (separated from a joint),  and the pump was pumping water from the sump into another room of the basement "oh that's just great!"

I quickly re-piped (temporary) the sump to pump outside and then went in search of my PVC cement.  Of course,  I shake the can and I can hear/feel a hard clump inside.  Had to wait for our local supply store to open (Fleet Farm).   Re-glued pipe (don't tell ANYONE..  but I don't think [no purple stain on pipe] that I had glued it when I first piped it 8-10 years ago) re-plumbed and back in business.

Needless to say,  our sump pump has been very busy!  Currently the pump is ON for a count of 14 and is off for a count of 8.

I gotta get out and buy a new standby (store on my shelf) sump pump.   I think it will be a 1/2 hp Zoeller

[12AX7]

The other day I noticed someone surveying the field/property kitty corner to ours and ours is in the local flood plain.   

The property owner has an easement thru our neighbor's property,  currently there's no road.

I went out and talked to the guy and he told me that the easement runs along our property,  and that the land owner would like to build two houses on the far corner of the lot.  He told me that the location of the easement is at an elevation of 840ft,  and that the flood plain extend to 844ft.  He pointed out to me that our house/property is 4ft BELOW the flood plain.   I said...  "no kidding!  really?"    *L*

Our local river is about 40ft from our house,   he pointed this out to me!   DUH!

I told him that last season (NOT THE FULL YEAR)  our sump pump pumped over 1,000,000 gallons of water.

I asked him whether the property owners could get a permit to put in a road that would be 4ft BELOW the flood plain.   He said NO   but he added a big "but"   he said that the property owner has "DEEP POCKETS"   and our local state government is ripe for the construction business.   He told me that currently there's NO (local) land available to build on,  and that he has surveyed 'worse locations'.

Things might get interesting in the next few months.

[Mary B]

McMansions yay! .NOT. I hope they get turned down

[12AX7]

Talked to one of our neighbors yesterday,   he said that the surveyors were back a couple of days ago,  seems that they were unaware that changes were made to the local flood plain rules.   They thought it was still 844' (above sea level)  but it was increased 3 feet to 847'.

Our property just sunk three more feet!   We're now SEVEN FEET below the flood plain.

I really don't understand their definition of "Flood Plain"  why would they use sea level when we're more than 1000 miles to the closest sea?    Lake Michigan is about 16 mile from us and it is 577 feet above sea level. Any idea how many cities are only several feet above lake level?  Just on the west shore,  Green Bay, Milwaukee,Chicago have huge areas in this flood plain. I understand that when talking about flood plains they think in terms of "100 year floods".  Are we suppose to believe that in the last 100 years or so Lake Michigan has flooded?  *L*   

Wouldn't it make more sense to make our local flood plain relative to our local large body of water?

[DamonHD]

ASL is just a measure against a standard reference point; the fact that it's 800+ rather than 10+ suggests that they are indeed not actually bothered about the distant sea but more local factors.

Rgds

Damon