Author Topic: Newbie questions  (Read 3445 times)

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Pinkelephant

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Newbie questions
« on: April 17, 2013, 01:00:06 PM »
My power goes out every 3-4 weeks and stays out for about 2-3 hours. My water pump goes dead so my wife is in a house with a 5 month old baby, holding a flashlight and she can't flush the toilet.

I planned a big fancy system using 12 golf cart batts and 100 amps of solar panels and I was looking at $4500 worth of toys. I then figured up what 60% of the charge capacity daily would be (keeping the batts above 40% charge) and came up with $3000 worth of usable electricity in 5 years (assuming I set up an automated system to efficiently use the energy that is available).

With the numbers I came up with, I talked myself out of that system and started from scratch.

I am planning to build a "set it and forget it" system that will maintain itself and work without assistance. I am a trucker and I am only home on the weekends.
I need the lights (2.5 people, 2 bed, 1 bath, dining room, kitchen, living room, outside lights. All CFL bulbs), shallow well water pump (just for toilet flushing), alarm clocks, hair dryer, microwave and the Sat-DVR to stay on. I probably dont want to put the 60" flatscreen on that list too.

I know solar/wind power will not pay for itself BUT if I add it, I can get the 30% tax credit for 3/4ths of my house rewiring project which would essentially pay for half of the panels.

Now from the begining (storage):
I'm looking at starting with 8-12 T105-RE batts and building a wheeled cart in my basement. The basement gets down to 48 degrees in the winter and has never gotten colder than that. I have my washer and dryer, my furnace and a large table saw down there too.
Should my cart be sealed up or should it breath? My inverter will be close to the batts on the cart and I will use stove plugs to connect the unit to the house so I can move it around.
What are my concerns about gassing and what are the easiest (price and practicality) setups?

EDIT: I should mention this is mainly a backup power system, plugged into a transfer switch but I plan on a few 12v cfl lights around the house
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 01:17:44 PM by Pinkelephant »

hiker

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Re: Newbie questions
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2013, 01:15:40 PM »
your batts need to be vented to the outside ...they release gas when charging and discharging !!
WILD in ALASKA

Mary B

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Re: Newbie questions
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2013, 02:47:09 PM »
Instead of that many 105's go to the L16 sized battery, fewer interconnects less to go wrong. Build a sealed cart with vent tubes to outside and a way to pressurize it to push air out. Batteries release hydrogen when charged and it is explosive. Otherwise look at sealed batteries that can be used indoors.

gww

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Re: Newbie questions
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2013, 03:29:17 PM »
Get a small generator.  Store a little fuel and forget the rest.
gww

thirteen

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Re: Newbie questions
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2013, 03:58:37 PM »
A small computor fan connected to your battery charaging system would help with venting while charging makeing it a positive air flow when charging or run a vent pipe up out near the cieling and with an intake at the batteries. . Put a water tank mounted on the cieling or in a corner and use it for flushing and water storage. A few leds lights or rechargable battery lanterns as backup will help until things improve. Just a few ideas toss or use. 
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Pinkelephant

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Re: Newbie questions
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2013, 04:08:54 PM »
Get a small generator.  Store a little fuel and forget the rest.
gww
I need a hands free solution that I can nickle and dime together over time. My wife will not start a generator and I'm only home on the weekends
Also I would like a fuel free solution for prepper reasons

DamonHD

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Re: Newbie questions
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2013, 04:11:46 PM »
Mary's approach sounds good to me.  In particular, I bought sealed (gel) batteries and a charger that won't overcook them because (a) I have other things to do with my life than babysit batteries and (b) I wanted to do without a house full of explosive hydrogen.

The sealed batteries are now not inside the house itself, instead in an adjoining shed at the front, but the benefits remain the same.

Rgds

Damon

PS. Solar + a good multistage MPPT charger + sealed batteries + realistic expectations and heavy conservation will be low maintenance and reliable.  In particular don't try to run anything other than the essentials off it and make them as efficient as possible, thus some very selective LED lighting and a minimal pump; no heating or cooking loads.
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birdhouse

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Re: Newbie questions
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2013, 08:57:53 PM »
i'm not quite sure what to tell you here. 

firstly, i wouldn't plunk down 2-3K on a system if you haven't ever had one.  start small.  get used to batteries and what they need and what they can provide.  even two of those t-105s could give 12v lighting for a VERY long duration. 

second thing that comes to mind is a low flow toilet (1.3 GPF) and a 20-30 gallon tank in the attic would yield a lot of flushes for the 2-3 hours of outage.  a very simple valve could be flipped by your wife to go from grid to off grid flushing ability.  you could fill the tank as needed on the weekends when you're home. 

these two options would solve the "basic needs" when the power goes out.  past that is avoiding boredom and discomfort. 

now if you want to go bigger, i'd recomend building a small shed close to the house to have the batteries ect live in.  sure, you can properly vent the batts in the basement, but it's a pain in the A.  plus many home owner insurance companies aren't real fond of a few KW of batts. in a basement.  especially when it comes to them paying out for a claim. 

ideally, or atleast in my mind, would be for you to build that small outbuilding and get a bunch of batts and an "inverter/charger"  these can range from 1-2k+.  the "inverter/charger" will take very good care of your expensive batteries while grid power is on, yet also turn the battery juice into usable power when the grid is down. 

once you have all that set up (paid for) then start looking at solar and charge controllers. 

BTW:  skip 12V.  it's a pain,  go straight to 24v, if not 48v. 

adam




thirteen

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Re: Newbie questions
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2013, 09:45:42 PM »
If you get new batteries be sure and check them when you start and record the voltage of each one. Best would be check them when you pick then up unless you are close. I didn't and one my new batteries had a shorted cell. To replace it I had to drive about a 100 miles. I agree on the small shed.  Just a thought.
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Pinkelephant

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Re: Newbie questions
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2013, 11:52:37 PM »
I assume I want all my batts before I plug them in so they all have the same amount of cycles. I figure I will buy a battery every week or two until I have 8 batts and then start building their home.
The problem with a small outdoor shed in central IL is when I'm 2 states away and it's 15 below and the ice knocks the power lines down for five hours. my batts would be trash before I return...

I want 12v cfl's and some cigarette lighter plugs around the house for charging phones and for running things that normally get plugged into transformers like cordless phones, scanner, verizon wifi card...
I assume that gets trickier with 24v

I assume with a 24v system, I could plug in some grape solar (30-36v) panels with a dump load relay...

I own an IOTA DLS-30 (30A) power supply for some ham radio gear. I can add the IQ4 to that and make it a charger/maintainer
http://www.iotaengineering.com/iq_spec.htm

My past projects:
---------------------
I have the 45 watt panels from harbour freight that I use in my garden shed for a battery maintainer/charger. I hook the leads to a different battery every couple weeks and I use the system to run 12v cfl lights in the shed.

from that I charge a battery box that has a 400 watt inverter and a pickup truck battery. I use the battery box to power my bbq shed (10x10 garden shed full of bbq equipment).I plug the shed into the box with a cigarette lighter plug and that powers indoor and outdoor 12v cfl lights. I use the inverter for a laptop and fans.

before that I built a solar powered deer hunting trailer for a doctor friend with deep pockets. He bought a toy hauler trailer to haul his argo (6 wheeler atv/boat) and we put 4 windows in it for bow hunting. It went to a welder and he made mounts for rear jacks and a roof mount for the harbour freight 45 watt panels.I charge 2 golf cart batteries from the panels. Then I used the two 5 watt cfls that came with the panels in pull cord light sockets. I then installed two 4" LED oval brake/tail lights from the truck stop that have a ring of white LED's around the edge for backup lights. I wired the white LEDs to one switch and I used a two way switch to turn on the parking or brake lights for red hunting lights. I replaced the roof vent with a vent/fan with remote control. I installed a 2000 watt inverter and some cigarette lighter plugs. I got a shop reel up extension cord to use AC outside the trailer. The charge controller for the panels have charging jacks on the front to charge things and it has a low power cutoff. I used that to trip a snow plow relay so all the power except the front jack, the fan and the inverter will shut off at low power.

To make a solid quiet platform, I installed three 3500 lb trailer jacks to lift the trailer off the ground and added rubber tile flooring.

I added 2 propane tanks and mounted a wall heater.

he had the idea of running the fan at half power and setting the fan controls to turn on at 95 degrees. The next time we looked at the trailer the batts were at 9 volts. I slapped a charger on there and charged them back up but they dont have the capacity they had new.

I still want to add a water tank, camping water heater (propane) and a stereo large enough to play music at a party. He said he will make me an offer I cant refuse when he's ready to part with it. then I will add an AC unit to the front window so I can plug in at campgrounds or peoples houses and not need to go to hotels when we go somewhere.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 12:01:08 AM by Pinkelephant »

XeonPony

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Re: Newbie questions
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2013, 11:46:48 AM »
well being I all ready runoff grid with this sort of configuration:

1: you're dealing with a hair over 500 pounds of lead, just a heads up

2: I recomend the US2200 series batteries they have performed amazingly.

3: keep the inverter smallest you can, the Xantrax freedom series 3Kw pure sign wave looks to be a very good one

4: get an electric start generator (It is essential part of any real system, I got two 3Kw gen sets ) and tie it to the inverter.

5: You want to keep your batteries close to 25c as possible they are at their best at that temp!

Now, if you want to go much more then 3Kw sorry aint going to happen at 12v, infact much over 1kw at 12v is stupid imo! Go 48V and use a dc-dc converter for the 12v it will pay off in the long run this I can assure, especialy when it comes to your solar pannels and charger!!!

So as some one who has lived with this system for 3 years I can tell you this
#1: start at 24 at the very lest, 48 would be best,
2: use a dc-dc converter for your 12v loads,
3 Only get an inverter that has generator suport or at the very least generator autostart ability!  and then get a good reliable generator and put a good sized tank on it! Mine is a 3Kw Onan with a 12gallon tank.

For charge controllers I recomend Morning star, for their price they are cramed with very very usefull features the most importent is the ability to hook it into your home net work and be able to see what is happening and view logs! and other such well built programing tools for it1 controller at 48v can do 4Kw of solar! same controller at 12v can only do 800w (You see the higher voltage pays off right there!)
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

Pinkelephant

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Re: Newbie questions
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2013, 01:24:39 PM »

2: I recomend the US2200 series batteries they have performed amazingly.


I used 2 US 2200 batts in the solar trailer mentioned above, but I was hauling loads of golf carts after that and was told by many dealers that no golf cart batt compares to the trojan batts. When they die, I may look into fork lift batts

I want a full set of batteries at the start so I can build the system up over the years and the batts will all be the same age. The AIMS modified sine 5000 watt inverter can be wired directly to the system and only draws .6a with no load. that is about 15ah/day draw to have dedicated 120v power from the system. and the inverter is 95% efficient at 1/3rd load. I'm considering hooking all the things I want to keep running directly to the inverter like:120v lights, the microwave and a couple plugs (alarm clocks, computer, SAT-DVR). My 30A charger/maintainer will have no problems keeping up with that. then when the power goes out, the powermaxx 30a charger can kick over and run the well pump and sump pump. The only time the inverter fans should kick in (not counting power failures) should be when the microwave gets used twice a day.