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Harold in CR

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Vortex Hydro system
« on: February 17, 2014, 08:54:12 AM »

 Being funding deficient, I am desperately seeking a way to increase output from my pitiful water supply.  I came across the Vortex design, so, did some research. As usual, they are used where water supply is great, but, little elevation change for sufficient head.

 As stated, being kinda desperate, I went to flushing the throne, and watching that swirling action. I got to thinking, if something similar to a slip-slop clothes washer agitator thingy was designed, as the water was channeled through a trough and then, spiraled down a tube, with the agitator type thingy hooked to a generator, would that gain any increase in power output ?

 The agitator thingys are tapered, so, as the water drops through the down tube, it strikes more and more of the fins that are, essentially, an auger with a swelled design as it goes down into the tube ?

 Clear as mud?  Google " Vortex Hydro Systems " to check out my idea. I have a maintained 20 GPM, pitiful as it is, water flow, that increases with rainy season, and, LOTS of lumber for the trough.  ????

Harold

HiddenMountain

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2014, 01:19:09 PM »
Hi Harold. I looked VHS's up and there's definitely been some money spent on the technology.
My question to you would be... Do you have enough water volume at 20 GPM to get a meaningful return on investment?
Have you looked into the various low head turbines out there?

This one comes to mind... http://www.microhydropower.com/our-products/low-head-stream-engine/

No, I don't work for these guys, nor do I have any interest in them selling anything beyond just knowing that someone in a situation like yours could actually harness power from his creek.

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Harold in CR

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2014, 07:06:14 PM »

 Thanks for that link. I have been on that site, several times.  Their system is for 500-2000 GPM flow. The idea is vaguely similar, but, they are just dumping water onto the propeller. I am looking into the swirl effect, or whirlpool effect, to increase the power of what I have to work with.

HiddenMountain

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2014, 10:33:41 PM »

 Thanks for that link. I have been on that site, several times.  Their system is for 500-2000 GPM flow. The idea is vaguely similar, but, they are just dumping water onto the propeller. I am looking into the swirl effect, or whirlpool effect, to increase the power of what I have to work with.

Ok, sorry, I guess I should have paid more attention. 

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hydrosun

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2014, 01:20:46 PM »
Don Harris has tinkered with this idea. He made a small model but I don't think he ever got it running. A good pelton is maybe 90% efficient in changing the potention energy of moving water into mechanical motion. So the possible gains are only a few percent. The alternator, bridge diodes,wire and battery losses are a much larger percentage loss so more gains are possible there. Wherever there is heat there is power being lost.  At 12 volts the diodes can lose 10%, at 48v that can be reduced to 2 1/2 %.
A larger case or stuffing more copper in a small case will reduce internal resitance loss. Higher voltage or bigger wire will reduce line loss.  Hand winding and possibly using two strands of 1/2 size wire you can get more copperin will cut internal losses. Using the power as it is produced eliminates the charge and discharge of the battery which can be 15 - 20%. Using more efficient end users of power can cut power needed by multiples. For instance I am writing this with a tablet on 12 volts using less than 5 watts (guessing) , compared to the 100 watt computer and monitor.
So there are many areas of proven improvements that can be made to get more utility out of the power captured from a stream. Some of these ideas cost money but some depend on changing habits, like changing nozzles as the stream flow changes or changing when you use power to match the input.
Chris

joestue

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2014, 02:12:04 PM »
i would suggest finding someone with a 3-d printer and making a Kaplan turbine
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

Harold in CR

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2014, 04:36:32 PM »

 Thanks guys. I was trying to shorten the distance I need to run the wires from the turbine to the batteries. I already have a 4½" Pelton wheel.

 I can save a couple hundred feet or more, IF I cross the corner of the neighbors property. It's pasture land, so, 1 post will do what I need, to keep the animals out of the wires. I can buy #4 Aluminum aerial cable, with 1 insulated wire. Might have to do that.   

HiddenMountain

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 02:11:18 AM »
I'm curious Harold, how long is your run and how much head do you have?
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Harold in CR

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2014, 08:15:51 AM »

  I will have a total head of 26'
 I will have a varying water supply of 20 -60 GPM and 60-150 GPM, ++ in heavy rains/runoff. THIS requires planning. There will be a bypass for what water I can't utilize.  When we get downpours, we get a small flash flood down this little valley.

 Run is 725 feet. I can reduce that by AT LEAST, 320 feet. That would be a run of 405 feet or less, considering the lines could run overhead across the corner of the neighbor.

 This is much better than what I posted in my other thread.

HiddenMountain

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2014, 01:36:28 PM »
I'm sure you've seen this site. Peter, who has been my biggest help with our system, is the owner and he is an absolute brainiac when it comes to this stuff. (Not to mention a really humble and down to earth guy) And unlike me, who is a bit of a brute force and ignorance type, he actually does the math!

http://www.homepower.ca/data_tables.htm

Anyway, I called him and we worked out that your worst case potential @ 20 GPM is about 45W. He doubts that your 4 1/2" pelton will be of any use though.  A turgo runner would be able to capture more of the water's energy. Unfortunately, he said that your hydro potential is marginal at 20 GPM.

I'm thinking that between solar during the dry season and MH during the wet season, (and a big enough battery bank to capture it all) you might be able to have a decent system.

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Harold in CR

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2014, 05:08:16 PM »

 Thanks to you and your friend, Peter, HM.

 I have known about the 20GPM giving near no benefit, but, I still need to consider it, because, we DO get some big showers during the 3 month rainy season. I have the makings of 3--90W solar panels, and, am cutting out parts for the experimental Lenz2 modified Wind turbine. We live up high, so, get plenty of cloud cover to minimize the Solar panel output.

 We use, typically 300 Kwh/month, unless I do a lot of shop work, cutting wood, welding metal, etc. Right now, the Aquaponics system uses 40 Kwh/month. That runs on battery system, now, as experimental, and will all be converted to alt energy battery system ASAP.

 I am looking at a 16 Kwh Nissan Leaf battery pack, for MUCH less that Lead batteries. We won't pull them flat to ruin them, so, they are definitely the best buy out there.  I currently run the water pump and air pumps, in the Aquaponics system, most of the lights in our house, and, the computer off of battery power, that I charge from the grid, FOR NOW. I have about all the kinks worked out of the system, so, feel confident in the off grid, as much as possible approach.

 I started changing the roof panels on the house, 2 weeks ago, and, the wind has not dropped below 20MPH, and, has had gusts above 50 MPH, ever since. If I get all 3 systems working, I suppose a weather related disaster will happen, and all the systems will automatically fail.  ::)

 Our Kwh rate is about .10 (10 cents), but, the add on fees, come to .24 (24 cents) total for the monthly bill. That's how the electric company screws us. We are about 70% Hydro power, in Costa Rica.  ::) 344 Kwh comes to roughly $90.00 /month. There is talk about rate increases, again.

HiddenMountain

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2014, 08:25:18 PM »
$0.24! No wonder you want to separate yourself from the grid. I certainly wish you the best in that.
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12AX7

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2014, 08:30:35 PM »
While I understand that this is a bit larger than what you're looking for..  perhaps a scaled down version?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_D6bl8B8Rk

Harold in CR

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2014, 10:25:49 PM »

 That still requires a lot of water, for the brute force needed to turn the turbine blades. I small amount of water has no force.

 This LINK shows what I am trying to get opinions on.  Maybe it won't increase output any, but, I can get 8' of drop and save another 75 feet of wire run.

 LINK

12AX7

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2014, 12:24:32 PM »
That system also looks like it uses a high volume of water.

Harold in CR

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2014, 12:53:30 PM »
Yes, it does. It also has a 9KW output, I believe. I was mostly showing the design features I am interested in.

HiddenMountain

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2014, 02:58:54 PM »
Thanks for the link to that vid Harold, know I have an idea about what you're after...

It looks like it could work in miniature, but the fact remains that you can never get more out than you put in. Add the parasitic losses and it gets depressing.



Energy Systems & Design Stream Engine, 30A @ 24V, 750W 
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Mary B

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2014, 04:46:05 PM »
Interesting... wonder how the impeller is built?

Harold in CR

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2014, 08:33:05 PM »

 I had found another video, showing the impeller was tapered, to match the cone shape of the Vortex. This is the part that has my interest.
The longer the turbine can be in contact with the water, the more power can be coaxed out of that water ?

Just can't find that other video.

thingamajigger

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letERblow

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2014, 12:10:36 PM »
Some interesting reading on vortex and velocity


http://www.hasslberger.com/tecno/tecno_2.htm

Harold in CR

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2014, 02:37:06 PM »
LetERblow, that is one great link you provided.  Thanks a BUNCH. It certainly has my increased attention. Now, how to construct that turbine with the spiral fins. Are you aware of the Torque tubes, that increase efficiency ? That will add a small % to the equation, also. I really like this turbine set up. Building the waterway trough is no big deal.

HiddenMountain

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2014, 03:24:19 PM »
Absolutely fantastic link! What a great read for hydro geeks!

Harold, while I was reading and wondering where one would procure some kind of vortex inducing pipe I thought what about a big bore rifle barrel? Something like an old 50 cal. musket barrel? The rifling would get vortex thing happening... Random thot from the woods, lol...
Energy Systems & Design Stream Engine, 30A @ 24V, 750W 
Magnasine MS4024P AE
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I hope they never find a cure for Eleutheromania

Harold in CR

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2014, 05:47:56 PM »

 HM, doubt you could stuff 20-150 GPM through that gun barrel by gravity feed ??  ;D ;D

 This is where I was thinking about that clothes washer agitator. It is tapered with flutes running from top to bottom. Problem is, it's made backwards for this project.

 Making the rotor would not be all that difficult. The shell that helps create the vortex would take some real engineering and construction.

 Need to sleep on this idea.  ;D

Mary B

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2014, 06:01:49 PM »
Sounds like a good project for a 3d printer

Harold in CR

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2014, 08:17:13 PM »
 HMmmmmmmmm.  :)  How to figure what size to make the rotor and down tube ?

 Ideas, anyone ??

 At 20 GPM, the stream is 12" wide X 2" deep, flowing. At 100 GPM, that would increase to 10" deep ?  Much deeper then that, the water will spill over the top of the cut in the sand bottom. Then, it goes to a flat of 18' wide X unmeasurable depth. Then, at flood stage, it gets deep and strong. Dead tree limbs, brush, leaves, weeds, cow flops, etc., come tearing downstream. That's when the engineering needs to be figured for washout prevention of the raceway-turbine.

 The raceway can be covered and screened to keep out big debris, but, small sticks, leaves, etc., should pass right on through, and out the torque tube.

 The nice thing about this design, is, don't need a LOT of head. I have an experimental dam in the creek, 100' upstream, that gives me about 5' of head, if I install at a closer location, than I had panned for the Pelton or Ossberger turbines.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 08:21:41 PM by Harold in CR »

letERblow

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2014, 03:47:59 PM »
the source of the vortex  velocity site was from here

http://www.fight-4-truth.com/Alternative%20Energy%20Page.html

he has some interesting info / theories on low head hydro, don't know the quality of the information.

12AX7

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2014, 10:29:16 PM »
Way way back I had the dream of building a large water wheel,  but time and funds got in the way.   However what really killed the idea was the number of fishing people that would come into our yard and I had visions of young kids being pulled into it.

And of course,  there's the issue of weather and just how hard the ice gets.

There are pics back here of the location  and I still have thoughts of building a underwater turbine.

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,128285.0.html

keithturtle

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2014, 01:42:45 AM »

 HM, doubt you could stuff 20-150 GPM through that gun barrel by gravity feed ??  ;D ;D

 This is where I was thinking about that clothes washer agitator. It is tapered with flutes running from top to bottom. Problem is, it's made backwards for this project.

 Making the rotor would not be all that difficult. The shell that helps create the vortex would take some real engineering and construction.

 Need to sleep on this idea.  ;D

I've slept on it for months, years even, and here's part of what I came up with:

I got that washer agitator, cut the blades off, then coated it with expando foam so I could machine some semblance of a logarithmic taper from top to bottom.  I cut a disk to make a centering support on the bottom.  I'll set it up on a low-rpm drive and grind away everything that shouldn't be there.

I figured I would use fiberglass to fashion [somehow] the spiraling blades, working from some CAD drawings.  It is still sitting in rough foam.  CAD drawing looks neat, though I really haven't a clue on how to make it reality.

As for creating the vortex acceleration, I got a 50 foot long street lamp monopole that's 10" ID at the base and 4" ID at the top, 1/4"galvanised steel wall, and round [and really heavy].  Now, Schauberger used an egg-shaped cross-section, and the best I could think of is to fashion some sort of insert for the length of that pole/tube to induce the vortex.   It is sitting also, just waiting for some brilliant flash of creativity to bring it to life. Maybe little vanes attached by NEO magnets?  Obviously the washer part will need to be scaled down... can anyone say 3-D printer?   Develop a prototype that works, then have a bronze [ala  boat prop] casting made from it, IDK.

I think if Viktor's scheme can be brought to life, one could make decent power from lower flows.

But that, sir, is a mighty big IF

Turtle, slower every day
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Harold in CR

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2014, 09:00:32 AM »

 Hi Turtleman.  QUESTION TIME.  ;D ;D  Maybe you should have stayed in the background on this design ?  :) :) :)

 What length were you figuring on for that vortex tube ?  I can get 6' of "hole" to work in, with an elevation change of 2' in 100' of run.

 Were you planning to use that agitator so that the bottom, swelled part was at the lower position in the vortex ?

 Were you planning on spiral flutes on both the agitator and vortex tube, to match, similar to loose fitting gear teeth would match ?

 Do you believe that, as the water swirls lower in the vortex, it loses some of it's force ?

  How wide were you thinking to make the tube ledges, for the water to be carried down the tube ?

 I have a few plastic barrels that are somewhat egg shaped. They run from 30 to 45 to 60 gallons roughly. They are swelled in the center, where a normal steel barrel has straight sides, so, I'm guessing a little, to allow for the swelled barrel capacity.

 With that egg shape, would you think that as the water nears the bottom third of that vortex tube, it would kinda "stack up" and help maintain that swirling force, until it exits at the bottom ? 

 Would the barrel, vortex tube need to be completely open, or, restricted a bit, to allow the water to create the vacuum for the torque effect ?

 Between us, I think we might get one to work.  If I remember correctly, you have a very limited amount of head in your stream, also ?  Roughly how many GPM do you have ?  I can't remember.  Keep the thinking flowing in this thread.

keithturtle

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2014, 10:05:09 AM »

 Hi Turtleman.  QUESTION TIME.  ;D ;D  Maybe you should have stayed in the background on this design ?  :) :) :)

 What length were you figuring on for that vortex tube ? 50 ft, but only because that's the tube I have.  I think shorter would work. I can get 6' of "hole" to work in, with an elevation change of 2' in 100' of run.

 Were you planning to use that agitator so that the bottom, swelled part was at the lower position in the vortex ? Yes

 Were you planning on spiral flutes on both the agitator and vortex tube, to match, similar to loose fitting gear teeth would match ? Spiral flutes, yes, probably only four

 Do you believe that, as the water swirls lower in the vortex, it loses some of it's force ?  Absolutely not.  Schauberger claims an increase in velocity as a function of converting heat energy into rotational energy.  His experimental data shows water out significantly cooler than water in; that's the key to "implosion energy"- the force only increases at the end

  How wide were you thinking to make the tube ledges, for the water to be carried down the tube ?About 20% of the cross-section, and not more than 40%

 I have a few plastic barrels that are somewhat egg shaped. They run from 30 to 45 to 60 gallons roughly. They are swelled in the center, where a normal steel barrel has straight sides, so, I'm guessing a little, to allow for the swelled barrel capacity. I have large blocks of styrofoam and a hot-wire cutter to fashion that egg-shaped chamber, but there is tremendous expense in the fibreglass to complete it

 With that egg shape, would you think that as the water nears the bottom third of that vortex tube, it would kinda "stack up" and help maintain that swirling force, until it exits at the bottom ?  Again, no. The rotor needs to be matched to the flow so as not to cause that back-up, which would destroy the velocity

 Would the barrel, vortex tube need to be completely open, or, restricted a bit, to allow the water to create the vacuum for the torque effect ?As I understand Viktor's writings, wall pressure is less as the flow accelerates, with a vacuum  present nearest the discharge.

 Between us, I think we might get one to work.  If I remember correctly, you have a very limited amount of head in your stream, also ? 3.5 ft in 100' Roughly how many GPM do you have ? Dry seasn flow ~800 gpm, wet season a steady 3000 plus  I can't remember.  Keep the thinking flowing in this thread.

Thanks for your interest.   http://blog.hasslberger.com/about.html will take you places with Schauberger.

Vik's kids have something going on in Austria as well.

I've spent many hours with this, and am convinced it is more than quack physics

Turtle
soli deo gloria

keithturtle

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2014, 10:20:39 AM »
I would add that velocity head has much more energy than the simple weight of falling water, which is a function of gravity.  Gravity is a comparatively weak force compared to fast-moving water.  In fact, energy increases as the square of the velocity (or is it the cube of the velocity?)

This is what Viktor Schauberger intuitively understood, and found ways to apply the principles in energy extraction

Turtle
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Harold in CR

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Re: Vortex Hydro system
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2014, 11:55:18 AM »

 Thanks Keith. Good info and answers.

 I have been trying all sorts of search words, and found THIS fascinating Youtube video. It definitely shows increased power from speeding up the water flow using a VERY simple rotor.

 I can see a LOT of time spent, playing with multiple designs.