Author Topic: Automotive alternator to PM alternator  (Read 34799 times)

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hiker

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2014, 09:58:34 PM »
if you only need 15-20 watts--go with some smaller mags or even ceramic--use some finer wire -more turns..cogging will not be a issue !
15-20 watts would be easy to obtain..!    i dont even bother to angle the mags and still get good results with smaller mags.........
WILD in ALASKA

Flux

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2014, 08:55:43 AM »
you don't say whether this is ac or dc volts but typically cut in at 12v dc is over 1000 rpm so you are way up on flux.

May be worth trying cutting the slots deeper to increase the air gap, this will reduce the cog.

Despite all the clever maths I don't think you can calculate the skew, approximately right helps a fair bit, you can get it to near zero by experiment but it is VERY critical. Easier if you have a blank core with laminations not welded, you can skew them for minimal cog before winding. With a welded core experiment is far more difficult.

You will have to wind with thinner wire to get in the turns you need but get the cogging right, see what volts you get, then you are well on the way. You have made a good start.

Flux

rustkolector

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2014, 09:52:24 PM »
Preliminary de-cogging efforts where not encouraging. The original 10 degree skew was not a full stator pole. While I could turn it by hand, it was difficult. A day later I needed a pair of pliers to turn it (?). I tried skewing angles from 11 to 15 degrees. The best seemed to be 14 degrees, but only marginally better than 15 degrees, if that. My magnets are exactly as wide at two stator teeth and the slot in between them. A 14 degree skew covers three stator teeth and two slots. 14 degrees seems to be a full stator pole skew which coincides with Zubbly's suggested skew. I tried increasing the air gap by .020" and noticed about an 8% drop in no load voltage, but no noticeable improvement in cogging. 

In light of these initial results, I am now thinking magnet skewing may not allow adequate cogging improvement for my my application. Possibly the thicker .25" thick magnets may not have been the best choice. I may try .125" thick magnets. I have read that crowning the stator teeth can help with cogging problems. It's a lot of work. Has anyone tried it?

Jeff

hiker

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2014, 12:03:37 AM »
ide go with the smaller mags....with those thick mags your losing output with all that skew..makes sence just to use less powerful mags and less skew=more output..  read somewhere on a old post--to large of a mag on this type of conversion it screws up the magnetic flux.
which again =less output..     just another thought--if your going to use it on a engine--use the stock field coil and rotor--and rewire the coils for higher voltage output--you can use some sort of varibale restor on the field coil to control the power output..all you need to do is hit the field coil with some voltage[small 9v. transitor batt. works] to get  things started-after that it goes on its own as long as you dont exceed the amperage output on the alt...worked on my pegen..............
WILD in ALASKA

Flux

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2014, 04:35:59 AM »
The core stack is very short on a car alternator, skewing works better with a much longer core so that you get a slot pitch skew with a lot smaller angle. I think you have confirmed a lot of my findings, some skew helps a lot but the skew for very low cog is extremely critical. I had a core pack relatively much longer than yours with the lams not welded, it was in a close fitting tube and I could skew it by putting a steel bar down one slot and twisting it. The thing was very critical and by the time I clamped it and welded it it was not as good as i had originally got it.

I suspect that the job would be far less critical with arc shaped magnets that present a cylindrical surface to the core. SWWP used arc magnets but instead of skewing they staggered the spacing, again I think it will be experimental, the basic maths won't get you close enough, there is too much flux fringing to be able to calculate things exactly.

I don't think crowning the teeth is practical in this case, it does help a bit with salient pole machines such as the F & P but the improvement is not great.

See if you can run it and see what you can get out of it, if you can get way more power than you need then you can widen the air gap and wind with more turns. For now just load it with the voltage that suits it and check the Watts, you can change the voltage later if it has plenty of power in reserve.

Weaker magnets will certainly reduce the cog but will reduce the output just as you will do with the present magnets and a large air gap, with only 8% loss of volts the gap flux is still high.

If you have the original claw rotor you will see that the pole tips are trapezoidal, this is a form of skew and the tips are thick near the disc and thin at the edge, this also makes the effective flux distribution tapered. This is not entirely done for cogging but I have noticed that the cogging on a fully excited car alternator is better than I would have expected.

Flux

rustkolector

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2014, 02:12:21 PM »
Ok, here is a quick attempt at a load test. Used a pair of 25 watt 12v tail light bulbs across the output of two legs only of the alternator:

RPM     No load VAC  Loaded VAC  Amps   Watts
200           2.5               1.9           1.45      2.8
300           3.9               3.2           1.80      5.7
400           5.3               4.5           2.12      9.5
500           6.8               5.8           2.40     13.9
600           8.2               7.1           2.66     18.9
700           9.6               8.4           2.90     24.3

What are your thoughts about getting reasonable output with a 3x-4x turn rewind provided an increased air gap will give a more reasonable cogging? Please keep in mind that my preferred output is 12vdc at 400-500 RPM. Thanks.

Jeff

Flux

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2014, 05:16:34 PM »
At the moment you can get about 12v dc at 800 rpm and the 3 phase rating ought to be a fair bit above the single phase, perhaps 40W with reasonable regulation.

As it stands you would need double the turns for 400 rpm I think you would get your 15W easily. I suspect that 3 times the present turns will be about as far as you can go, although if you can run at 500 rpm you have a better chance. This is a tiny alternator for much output at 400 rpm.

Regulating the output will let you push things a bit harder as the inherent regulation will be poor.

So much depends on how much you have to increase the gap to get low enough cogging.

Might be interesting to try the differential spacing instead of skew, you could probably play with the spacing easier than changing the skew angle.

Flux

gizmo

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2014, 10:13:46 PM »
Didn't some of the Air-X windmills use a car alternator stator, with a clever magnet arrangement to reduce the cogging down to near nothing? Something along the line of uneven magnet spacing.

If there were, for example, 12 magnets, that if spaced evenly around the core would have a 1mm gap between each magnet. But instead, if the magnets are spaced  at 0.8mm apart, we end up with a gap in one place of about 2.5mm. I think there is a technical name for this type of arrangement but I cant think of it. I know there is a tiny decrease in power, but a massive reduction in cogging.

Glenn

 

smidy

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2014, 01:59:55 AM »
I did some diging in air 403 back in the days, they had car alternator similar stator, but it was 3 diffrent wire in the stator and some "clever" computer that chose how and when to use the diffrent windings, the magnets where sligtly skewed and even spaced around the rotor. yes it was rubbish...
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Flux

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2014, 09:13:11 AM »
I think the early ones used skew but like Glenn, I think later ones used the spacing method. The magnets were curved to suit the stator so things would be more predictable than rectangular magnets.

Basically skew aims to make the cogging torque zero over one tooth, the spacing method balances the clockwise and anticlockwise pull over the 36 teeth. With tooth saturation , flux fringing and non uniform air gap I doubt that calculation will be as good as guesswork.

Flux

rustkolector

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2014, 11:42:50 PM »
Timely discussion. I have a new rotor put together, and I am ready to machine the magnet pockets. This time I was intending to try the unbalanced offset method of de-cogging mentioned here:

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/3538/decogging_tutorial_V1.pdf

With my 36 tooth stator, and 12 pole rotor, my offset angle by this method is only 0.83 degrees. This offset shouldn't create any noticeable unbalance in the 400-500 RPM range for my plans. If it does, it can be easily managed. Has anyone actually tried the offset method as presented in this article?

Jeff


Flux

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2014, 03:47:33 PM »
Not tried it, but it was the method I called differential spacing and Glenn mentioned it as used by SWWP in some of their units.

I don't think the out of balance will bother you in the slightest at low speed. The idea of all the cog reducing techniques is to make the total reluctance  pull zero. Skew does this for each stator tooth lining up with a magnet edge. The spacing method does it over all the magnets so the clockwise and anticlock moments cancel over the total stator teeth.

Things like rounding pole tips or slot teeth only reduce the flux density on the tooth edges, it moderates the reluctance pull but doesn't get rid of it. I think the spacing method may work for you but I don't think the maths will be much more than a guide as in the skew case.

If you can stick your magnets on a round core with something strong enough to find the best position it would be better than trying to machine flats or slots until you have got it right. Might be a use for superglue ( not found one yet).

Flux

rustkolector

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2014, 01:49:17 PM »
Flux,
I tried the offset method as described in the link. Cogging is still present, but considerably reduced. It is low enough that I would consider it acceptable for my use. Voltage is > 0.1 vac of my first test voltage. I would still like to make some minor adjustments to the magnet locations to see what further improvements might be possible. The magnets are currently installed using only their attraction to the rotor. Risky, I know, but so far no problems up to 400 RPM with a close air gap. I would like to test at higher speed, and to move them around slightly to see what improvements can be attained with this de-cogging method. That would require super gluing the magnets temporarily to the rotor. When using super glue for machining purposes, I can knock a work piece loose using a sharp tap with a drift. Not sure if the super magnets would come loose similarly without breaking. Any experience removing temporarily secured super magnets?

Jeff

rustkolector

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2014, 04:06:27 PM »
After a little tinkering a little more, I think I have the cogging about as good and I can expect. It is pretty smooth, although I haven't been able to quiet it down much but that could be resonance from the lathe it is mounted on. I wish it had more poles. My 18 pole alternator was quieter but cogged a little more using skew with the same 1" long stator core. The offset (differential spacing) has was much easier in my opinion. The de-cogging and voltage output results turned out well using the math stated.

I guess now it is time to face the inevitable rewinding task and hunt up some winding materials. Hum...slot fill, circular mills....more to learn. Thanks for the help thus far.

Jeff

rustkolector

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2015, 11:52:36 PM »
No, I haven't abandoned this project. A few other important projects took priority, but I am back on it now. I wanted to review a few things just to be sure I am doing this correctly to get the most out of this automotive alternator stator. The stator is originally wired 12 pole using 12 overlapping coils in each phase winding. Each coil has 6 turns of #17 (.045”, 1.15 mm dia) wire making a total of 12 turns overlapping in each slot. My no load voltage phase to phase is 7.0 VAC at 500 RPM, and after connecting the 3 phase bridge rectifier the no load voltage is 9.4 VDC. I wasn't expecting that much difference, but that is what the VOM reads. I am assuming this information is as valid as a single test coil.

So, I presently have 12 coils x 6 turns each = 72 wire turns in each phase winding. If I rewind using the 6 coil virtual pole configuration (still don't understand virtual poles) and 12 magnets I will need 12 turns in each coil to duplicate the original winding output. All coils wound in the same direction. If I rewind with smaller wire, say #25 (.017”, .454 mm dia), with approximately 30 turns (or what fits), I should be able to get a no load voltage of about 20-23 VDC. I need a minimum of 15 VDC at load to adequately operate the switch mode external voltage regulator set to 13.2 VDC. My preferred load will be about 25-30 watts at 13.2 VDC. I will still use the offset method of locating the magnets to reduce the cogging level which seems acceptable at this point.

I would appreciate any comments regarding my understanding and my rewind plan. If correct, the only issue would be whether the stator slots would hold the 30 turns of #25 or larger wire. So, any suggestions on wire size and how to calculate wire size/slot fill would be appreciated. Thanks for all the previous information and suggestions.

Jeff

rustkolector

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2015, 11:29:46 AM »
If I am figuring this correctly, using the cross sectional area per turn of the different wire sizes for my calculation, I should be able to get at least 38 turns of #22 wire in the same slot area as the original 12 pole overlapping winding with 6 turns per coil of #17 wire. And possibly 48 turns of #23 wire. Based on 500 RPM  9.4 vdc no load voltage with the original 6 turn 12 pole overlapping winding, I should be able to easily reach my 20+ vdc at 500 RPM with a new 38 turn 6 pole winding using #22 wire. Hope that makes sense!

I would appreciate a confirmation and/or comments. Thanks.
Jeff

Flux

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2015, 04:45:57 AM »
It may be a good idea to load the existing winding with lamps or resistors to get 30W. This will give you a better idea how much the volts will drop below your nominal 9v open circuit. Keep the speed constant for the test.

For instance you got your 30W at 6v dc you would then you would need 3 times the turns to get 18v for your power supply.

For simplicity I would keep the original winding configuration, a full coil winding is not common on car alternators but as it is wound that way I would stick with it. Ideally changing to a half coil ( virtual pole) arrangement will get you the same result but if you change the slot distribution you will introduce new variables. Also if you keep the same arrangement you can safely assume the number of turns you can get to fit will be directly proportional to the wire area . It gets a bit easier with thinner wire and with a bit of care you may be able to get more wire in than the original but try to keep life easy for a first winding attempt.

Taking my example of needing 3 times the number of turns from above, you would use 18 turns per coil with 1/3 csa. That I think works out to 0.71mm or the nearest AWG equivalent.

Yes you are on the right lines but to avoid new variables I would keep to 12 coils per phase and reverse every other coil as in the present winding rather than using the half coil configuration.

Good luck you seem to be progressing well.

Flux

rustkolector

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2015, 10:43:12 AM »
Thanks Flux. I will stay with the original 12 overlapping coil per phase with the new winding. One further question....I am not familiar with your reference to "1/3 csa". Can you explain?

Jeff

Flux

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2015, 11:59:02 AM »
Sorry,csa means cross sectional area of the wire.

If you need to get 3 times the number of turns into a given space the wire needs to have 1/3 of the cross sectional area, not 1/3 of the wire diameter.


Flux

rustkolector

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2015, 08:48:33 PM »
Flux,
I tested the original winding, but before I did I increased the air gap by .015". I wasn't happy with the noise. It is now much quieter and smoother. I used Dinges off set method of decogging. The no-load open voltage with the increased air gap has dropped from the original 9.4vdc to 8.75vdc at 500 RPM. I then loaded the existing winding with 4 auto tail light lamps and measured 4.66A at 6.40vdc. That's 29.8 watts, and just where I want to be. Three times the original winding turns should give me what I need. Time to rewind.

Thanks.
Jeff

rustkolector

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2015, 11:01:44 PM »
Since I started this thread I thought I would report back with my results. This project was to build a slow speed (350-500 RPM) DC generator for a 1/8th scale working model of a 1906 twin cylinder gas engine. Design was for a 30 watt output at 500 RPM at 12vdc using a 93mm dia. 30 amp automotive style alternator stator. The original stator was 6 turns of #17 wire wound with 12 overlapping coils. I found someone that had experience rewinding small motors. Duplicating the 12 overlapping coils with 18 turns of #22 wire proved to difficult to manage the end turns with the shallow stator core. It was decided to wind it with 30 turns of #23 wire in a wave or serpentine winding which proved manageable. The rotor is 12 pole with a steel core using 1"x .5"x .25" neo magnets arranged using the offset method. Cogging is almost non existant. Upon testing, the no load DC voltage output was 25vdc. This was stepped down through a 3A switch mode DC to DC buck converter to 12vdc. The results were as follows"

RPM

rustkolector

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2015, 11:47:33 PM »
Opps!!! I hit the wrong key. Sorry. The maximum output at each RPM was determined to be when the input voltage to the regulator dropped to about 13.3v. Test alternator was driven by a variable speed lathe.

RPM    Volts     Amps    Watts
350      12.0      .99         12
400      12.0     1.88        22.5
450      12.0     2.71        32.5
500      12.0     2.93        35.2 (Voltage regulator maxed out at 3A)

Using a higher amp rated voltage converter the max output at 500 RPM is estimated at 50 watts and 60 watts at 550 RPM. This higher output is not needed for this, or future projects as the alternator/generator above is more than adequate as is. The project 1/8th scale engine is basically complete, and shows good power at 450-500 RPM.  The vintage looking generator frame is in progress. Many, many thanks to all who offered advice on this project and a especial thanks to Flux. THANKS GUYS!
Jeff

Bruce S

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2015, 02:53:45 PM »
That is great to see/read.
Would you happen to have pics of the internal windings ?
We like pictures  :D, also gives others a visual of what wave windings are.

Many Thanks for the update too!
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rustkolector

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2017, 10:52:58 PM »
I started this thread a long time ago and must apologize for not posting the finished project. To remind all here,  I wanted to build a small PM alternator based on an auto type alternator stator that I had. My retirement hobby is building working scale model engines based on old slow speed stationary engines of the early 1900's. I like my model engines to do what the real engines did during their working career. DC power generation was a very common application. So this project was a 1/8th scale model of a 25hp Bates & Edmonds gas engine DC electric plant which required about 36 watts of electrical output at 500-600 RPM. The B&E engine was a very unusual gas engine in that it used the alligator valve link system operated by eccentrics and pull rods to open the overhead valves. The engine runs on propane.

My problem was 18+ volts at low RPM and cogging. In the end, the 12 pole, 36 slot 93mm dia. stator was rewound for higher voltage using the original wave winding, neo magnets were installed on a new steel rotor using the offset method for cogging reduction, and the AC was rectified and regulated for a smooth 12vdc output. The generator was modeled after an early Garwood DC generator. I am very happy with the final project and thought it might be of some interest to those on this helpful forum.

Thanks again for the help.
Jeff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52cj8px3GSA


« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 10:59:09 PM by rustkolector »

joestue

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2017, 01:57:57 AM »
Outstanding work, i am impressed.

how did you make the cams?
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hiker

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2017, 12:18:04 PM »
Nice.....really loads up the engine when the light is on...35 watts ?
WILD in ALASKA

rustkolector

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2017, 01:33:55 PM »
Joestue,
Thanks. The engine does not use conventional cams. It uses eccentrics to pull down on a pair of curved and flat levers that depress the overhead valves without putting side thrust on the valve stems. This system was unique to B&E engines. There were many unique engine designs in the earliest days of gas engine development. See photo of the valve levers.

Hiker,
The electrical load in the video was only about 10-12 watts. The engine has no working governor. Scaled down working governors require much higher speeds that prototype to provide adequate working torque. The engine design did not allow such gearing at this scale. I use only a nominal electrical load to demonstrate the engine and generator as a working system.

Jeff


Bruce S

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2017, 12:11:55 PM »
What an absolutely beautiful sound! I'd commission one just to listen to it run, if I had any $$$ .

Thanks for the share
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george65

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2017, 07:20:34 PM »
I'd commission one just to listen to it run, if I had any $$$ .


I'd have never thought of Commissioning one. I thought these guys would only do it for themselves but I'm sure some would love the paid opportunity to build another.

I'd rather spend the money on something like that to look at and admire than I would a painting. To my uneducated eye, most painted artwork looks like something I did in kindergarten.

Wonder what an engine like that would be worth to build for somone? $5, 10K?

Bruce S

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2017, 09:00:41 AM »
I used to rebuild flathead Ford 4-cyl tractor engines equipped with updraft carbs. It was a labor of fun and love (love = seeing something wore out come back to life and purr ).
Building something like this would be worth whatever , but knowing the hours it took to rebuild a standard ICE , I could only imagine to hours it took to downscale and almost invent everything.


 
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george65

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2017, 09:11:12 PM »

Yeah, I can't even begin to imagine the skills, problems and sheer talent that goes into something like that.
All I know is it's way beyond my abilities to properly even appreciate the brilliance of those that can do it.

rustkolector

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2017, 10:02:02 PM »
Thanks for the nice comments. I still have one more question on this project relative to rewinding. The alternator stator originally used was from a 40A 12v rated auto alternator. The slots were filled with 2 overlapping coils each with 6 turns of #17 wire. According a chart I found for copper magnet wire current based on AWG standards, #17 wire is rated for only 2.9A. That obviously cannot be correct, or I am missing something. What am I missing?   

What do you use for determining wire size vs current capacity when planning to re-wire a stator?
Jeff

joestue

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Re: Automotive alternator to PM alternator
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2017, 12:28:30 AM »
Thanks for the nice comments. I still have one more question on this project relative to rewinding. The alternator stator originally used was from a 40A 12v rated auto alternator. The slots were filled with 2 overlapping coils each with 6 turns of #17 wire. According a chart I found for copper magnet wire current based on AWG standards, #17 wire is rated for only 2.9A. That obviously cannot be correct, or I am missing something. What am I missing?   

What do you use for determining wire size vs current capacity when planning to re-wire a stator?
Jeff

allowable temperature rise under load, that's basically it.

a microwave oven transformer sends typically 13 amps through a 16 gauge aluminum wire, about 100 feet long, you can add it up yourself but lets say 50 square inches of surface area for fan assisted cooling. take the heat lost in the primary and double it, that's probably a safe assumption for the secondary losses. core losses, i have no idea what they actually are under load.

a copper extension cord would probably be rated for at least 6 amps if it was sold as a cheap extension cord. 16 gauge cords are usually rated at 10 amps far as i know. 14 gauge is safe for 15 amps, 12 for 20, 10 awg is .1 inches in diameter and typically rated for 30 amps.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.