Author Topic: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project  (Read 63039 times)

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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2014, 06:13:00 PM »
Some progress... Finished welding one side of the wheel and flipping it over to weld up the other side. You can see the side plate reinforcements on the inner and outer diameters. The inner one will bolt up to the spokes with 1/2 inch bolts

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2014, 06:28:15 PM »
I need to make a boom pole for my tractor loader as well. It lifts 10 feet and the wheel is 10 feet tall. To get it moved in a vertical orientation will require me to have a few more feet of lift.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2014, 08:51:33 PM »
Put something in the middle of the wheel and lift THAT.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2014, 09:16:43 PM »
Good idea.

I suppose I could put the forks on the tractor and use those. I could put 2x6's on the forks to prevent scraping up the aluminum.

12AX7

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2014, 10:26:36 PM »
impressive!

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2014, 10:49:44 PM »
I felt like a hamster today when I disconnected the lift sling. I used the blades like a ladder and climbed up, and when I disconnected the sling from the tractor the wheel started to roll away with me on the inside like an exercise wheel. Anyone watching would have had a good laugh... ;D

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2014, 12:26:26 AM »
Gotta love progress.  I thought of your project when I came across this a few days ago.

Saw this 12' breastshot wheel at Metamora, Indiana.  About 40" wide, it produced 30 HP with 8' of fall thru an old canal lock, made of black walnut, most recent iteration 1991.

They no longer operate it; mill is powered by an electric motor now.

Interesting to see that "reuse" was in vogue even 150 years ago, when the railroad replaced the canal boat ca. 1860, as the canal lock provides the differential head for waterpower.

http://www.metamoraindiana.com/Hist_GristMill.htm

Turtle
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 12:31:28 AM by keithturtle »
soli deo gloria

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2014, 10:32:27 PM »
That's a nice old water wheel. Looks real heavy!!

I'm finished welding the wheel and installed the axle and spokes. I'll post pictures tomorrow as I finished up in the dark tonight. I'll be happy to put the spool gun away :P The wife will also be happy to get her parking spot back too ;D, as I had to weld up the wheel in the garage and not the shop (shop door wasn't big enough to get it out).

Next, weather permitting, I'll finish the rebar, form the pad, and pour the concrete before the river starts to rise with the fall rains. It's supposed to rain for the next few days...

I'll start on the stand soon as well as I have most of the materials. Still many other things to complete (cable trenching, grid tie inverter, purchase generator, etc. Overall I'm perhaps 20%-25% done

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2014, 10:48:06 AM »
Picture of completed wheel with axle installed

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2014, 03:35:19 PM »
Looking good, bro.

From your earlier post: "I will be putting a turn-table on the top so I can swing the wheel 180 degrees to remove the wheel."

You might want to consider inner diagonal bracing from left hub to right perimeter, etc. to mitigate lateral shear forces.  Should your wheel pivot on its own in high flow, the river has a good chance of bending the crap out of your angle-stock spokes. There's plenty of strength in normal configuration, but when flow hits it sideways, those side panels will pull real hard on the hub, and the spokes will take it all.

Just a thought

Turtle
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2014, 10:39:30 AM »
That's definately something to consider Keith. Rather than changing the wheel design I'll make sure the turntable locks securely in position. I was originally planning on 2 drop in pins in the turntable, but on second thought I will use bolts.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2014, 10:57:31 AM »
I'm looking at generators now. Does anyone have any experience good or bad with Xinda Green energy?

http://www.xindaenergy.com/5Kw-50rpm-low-speed-Vertical-Permanent-Magnet-Generator-for-vertical-wind-turbine-p204.html

I've been in discussion with this company and they can change the frame of this generator to allow for horizontal mounting for my application.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2014, 11:05:34 AM »
I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but I came across this online calculator to determine the output of an undershot water wheel. It seems to match up well with my calculations.

http://www.borstengineeringconstruction.com/Undershot_Water_Wheel_Design_Calculator.html

In fact I may go with a slightly larger 7.5kw generator based on the calculator. I can take advantage of higher river flows as long as the  torque requirements of the generator won't stall the wheel at lower river velocities.

Mary B

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2014, 02:47:33 PM »
Chinese built snake oil a lot of the time. Be very careful of what you buy there because a lot of it is way over rated or is plain junk.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2014, 03:19:56 PM »
Mary, do you have a recommendation for a generator supplier?

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2014, 05:33:29 PM »
Foundation rebar work in progress (sorry for the blurred pictures). I have 25m rebar on 1 foot centers across the bottom @ 6 inches elevation and across the top. The top of the rebar will be 6 inches below finished foundation height. I'll have it done today, and if the weather holds I'll have it formed up by tomorrow.

Rule of thumb is to have the foundation weigh 3x machinery weight. I'll be in the range of 5-6x.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2014, 08:37:50 PM »
Rule of thumb is to have the foundation weigh 3x machinery weight.

Is that static or dynamic applications?

Turtle
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Mary B

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2014, 11:13:23 PM »
I don't know of a good supplier off the top of my head. Chinese stuff can work but it often needs to have the dried yak fat they use for grease removed then replaced with a good synthetic. Bearings may need to be replaced with better ones. I would look for user reviews on anything you decide to buy and some of the people here who make energy with water could have good sources.

Frank S

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2014, 11:32:12 PM »
  Having done many marine projects such as sea walls breakwaters & docks in the past,  so I am inclined to have some concerns about  your foundation
 In one of your posts you showed the water seeing into the excavation for your foundation.
 I fear that the foundation is going to be undermined over a period of time due to the close proximity of the waters edge
 I realize that there is rip-rap and a large tree upstream which should help to slow the inevitable process somewhat.
 I also understand it may have been difficult to get any large equipment to the construction site but even a small excavator with a hydraulic hammer to drive a few pieces of oilfield drill pipe into the ground as deep as they would go would have helped to act like the roots on the tree anchoring he foundation to the shore.
 Almost all slabs , roads or boat ramps that I have seen poured very near the water level,or in the water have shown evidence of undermining in very short times.
 the water contained in the soils of the banks of rivers actually flows along with the river just at a much reduced rate.
 Good luck with your project it is a very nice looking wheel so far.   
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2014, 07:13:42 PM »
I finished forming the foundation today. Based on Frank's and Keith Turtles input I decided to increase the size. I can't really drive piles down as the river bank is mostly large rocks. The foundation will weigh close to 20,000 pounds of reinforced concrete (about 4 cubic meters). The wheel, frame, generator and counterweight will weigh in the neighborhood of 1800 pounds which is more than 10:1 machinery to foundation ratio which is very conservative.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2014, 09:37:49 PM »
Increasing the weight of the slab is a good thing.  Now, can you offset the normal shear force in the downstream direction by cabling or otherwise tying off to an upstream tree or structure?  This way the slab will only need support vertical load, and not also need to resist the twisting action of the water trying to push the wheel downstream.

An additional cement structure may be needed if no suitable tree is available withing reach.

Just a thought, considering all the force vectors that might cause any movement/rotation of the slab, thus rapidly increasing the inevitable incidence of erosion.

BTW, what are you using to create head/fall across the wheel?  I don't recall hearing you address that yet

Turtle
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Frank S

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2014, 09:54:21 PM »
From what I understand he is going to rely on surface flow velocity, by undercurrent contact not over shot head fall
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2014, 10:31:48 PM »
Oh yeah, that explains the open bucket design.

I should know better

Turtle
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2014, 11:25:08 PM »
I really don't expect the foundation to be undermined.The river has flown alongside that river bank for a long time. I'm not sticking out into the river as I have at least a foot of river bank between the slab and river. I will extend the wheel into the river with the nearest side at 2-3 feet away from the river bank.

Underneath the slab are large rocks, highly compacted and tightly interwoven with roots, smaller, rocks and dirt.On the very edge of the river bank are very large roots from trees that get moisture directly from the river. The roots won't wash away like sand or gravel and will hold everything together.

Of course I'll keep an eye on it and if necessary will add additional mass to the slab by tieing in to the river bank higher up.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2014, 11:37:55 PM »
From what I understand he is going to rely on surface flow velocity, by undercurrent contact not over shot head fall

Yep, velocity makes head. Using the Borst calculator - 10 feet/second (my lowest flows) is equal to 1.55 feet of head (2.6kw), 11 = 1.88 (4.1kw), 12 = 2.25 (6.4kw), 13 = 2.63 (9.6kw) assuming 65% efficiency.

Water flow through the wheel at 10 feet/second is roughly 20000 gallons/minute. At 12 feet/second it is near double.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2014, 11:40:05 PM »
Rule of thumb is to have the foundation weigh 3x machinery weight.

Is that static or dynamic applications?

Turtle

Dynamic

Nautilus

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2014, 07:24:14 AM »
Hi Skid - Re Generators - I am not sure of your plans for the electrical power produced, but wind generators are generally as low speed as you can get. I have used an African Wind Power PM generator and a Rebuilt 48 volt DC Jacobs on a water wheel - both worked well - There are lots of great designs out there if you want to build your own PM Generator. You will need to optimize the speed of the wheel for best performance by testing after installation - a variable field generator will help with this - as you can vary the load - If you go with a PM generator I suggest you use a MPPU to optimize speed and output- this works really well . Speed increase at the high torque you can expect is a really big deal. Check on your shaft size as you may just twist it right off - a heavy chain drive - 1.5 to 2 inch pitch diameter - makes a good first step - you can often find used horizontal gearboxes in the scrap yards - The last wheel I installed used an 8 to 1 increase gearbox. These two steps get you to the point where torque is low enough to use belts on the next step. As I recall the 12 ft breast wheel mentioned  ran on 7 ft of head at 12 rpm and produced 2 kw. We found that even steel buckets flexed a tiny bit each time the water struck them and after a couple of years we got breaks at the welds- you might want to reinforce the backside of your buckets with angle laid flat and skip welded. I like you idea of tipping the wheel out of high water - I'm not sure how you plan to do this with the generator and speed increase attached.There are photos of what high water can do to a wheel in the Gallery under US installs at (sorry, absolutely no links on your very first post: DamonHD). Very best of luck have fun. - Ron
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 07:58:05 AM by DamonHD »