Author Topic: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project  (Read 63038 times)

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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2014, 11:50:06 PM »
Nautilus,

Thanks for your suggestions. I'll keep an eye on the buckets once I get operational. Please repost that link too.

The output shaft on my wheel is 2.75" so it should handle all the torque, and I will be using a 5:1 sheave set up to drive a 50 rpm generator. If necessary I can get a new sheave for the generator if I need to alter generator rpm,  but the one for the wheel won't change due to its large diameter (~5 feet) and cost.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2014, 11:54:55 PM »
Nautilus,
Please repost that link too.

He can't.  Search nautilus water turbine.  Ron is based in Greenfield, MA.

The Niade model is what inspired my project

Turtle
soli deo gloria

Nautilus

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2014, 06:28:42 AM »
Thanks Turtle - I'm not just sure what the rules are - should probably read up on it - do you have pictures of your Niade? Best Ron

DamonHD

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2014, 07:28:09 AM »
Hi,

Welcome!

The main rule is to play nice, which you are, so all is good!

We don't allow posting of any links that might be interpreted as commercial until you've made ~50 posts and established that you are not a horrible SPAMmer, bot, evil space alien, or whatever.

And no mention of or links to OU (Over Unity / Perpetual Motion stuff) please: in this forum we obey the laws of thermodynamics!  B^>

Rgds

Damon

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2014, 07:40:38 PM »
Edit - Drawing too small to see

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2014, 09:08:50 PM »
do you have pictures of your Niade?

I don't have one yet, and my flow/head drop is at the bottom of the smallest Niade's useful range.

Half of the dam washed out last year, so I'm getting wind and solar together first before I head back to the stream

Turtle, slow
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2014, 07:06:21 PM »
My son and I were planning to pour the concrete for the foundation this Friday. Looks like that won't be happening now.

The good news is that the forms haven't washed away yet. This may also indicate that the concern for erosion around the foundation will not be a problem. However, the river can get higher than this. In fact the forecast is for steady rain for the next 3-4 days so we'll see what happens.

The other good news is that at the current river flows of 13 feet per second, the calculator indicates about 13KW of potential power is available at 65% wheel efficiency. I may have to upsize the generator to 10kw 8)

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2014, 06:21:55 PM »
The forms were floating last night with the rebar preventing the forms from floating away, were there this morning, but disappeared during the day. Hopefully the rebar is still intact.

The river is flowing very fast. I'm estimating 15 feet per second +


skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2014, 09:18:14 PM »
 I'll have to completely redo the rebar and forms for the foundation. The hole I dug for the foundation filled with sand when the river flooded and the rebar is is listing somewhat so I might as well take all the rebar out and redo everything. The flood season is pretty much over so hopefully I'll be able to make a pour this winter sometime.

A 7.5kw 50 rpm generator has been ordered, the SKF pillowblock bearings with self aligning spherical roller bearings are here, the 12" diameter pipe for the cantilever arm should be delivered shortly,and the 5 foot diameter drive sheave is being built.The only major components remaining to purchase are the electronics for the grid tie.

I've been working on some other unrelated projects, but will soon start to weld up the cantilever arm that will carry the water wheel. A friend has provided some engineering input and came up with a very elegant solution for the pivot and counterweight.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2014, 11:04:52 PM »
The flood season is pretty much over so hopefully I'll be able to make a pour this winter sometime.


Were you able to record some high-level benchmarks, and possibly get some accurate velocity readings during the high-flow events?  That data will be very useful when solving future problems

Turtle
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2014, 11:48:36 PM »

Were you able to record some high-level benchmarks, and possibly get some accurate velocity readings during the high-flow events?  That data will be very useful when solving future problems

Turtle
[/quote]

I did get the high level mark and a rough indication of velocity. At 15 feet per second I would be making close to 30kw by the Borst calculator so I definately would have to have the wheel out of the water to avoid damaging the generator and inverter, or perhaps just dip its blades in the river an inch or two to reduce efficiency and reduce output

We're supposed to get more heavy rain all this week, so I may have been premature saying flood season is over. This time I'll get some accurate feet/second readings over a measured distance.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2015, 10:16:00 PM »
Well, December in the PNW was another month of heavy rain with the river reaching absolutely bank full. January has now started off with about 16 inches of snow followed by rain. I won't be working near the river for a while.

I've been doing some other projects in the meantime, but now have the the following items underway:
-Purchased two SKF spherical roller bearings and pillow blocks for the water wheel. For a 70mm shaft they are very pricey. I coated the pillow blocks with POR 15 so they won't eventually rust.
-Purchased 7.5kw PM generator. Now complete and being shipped from China as I write this.
-Fabricated 5 foot diameter drive sheave for water wheel to drive the generator. Final machining underway.
-Purchased sched 40 12" diameter x 20' long pipe for the cantilever as well as two 4"x 6" x 7 feet square tubing to hold the water wheel which will be welded to the pipe. I'll start fabricating that once I clean up the garage.
-Came up with a more sophisticated and better design for the stand to support the cantilever. It will be cast right into the concrete foundation instead of being anchored to the surface. Have purchased the materials for that and will start fabbing that as well

This is taking longer than expected, but then again all my projects seem to do that :)

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2015, 02:47:04 PM »
Skid, your persistence is admirable.  Did the most recent high flow exceed that of early December 2014?

Did you place any benchmarks so as to determine if the pedestal foundation has shifted?

Keep up the good work!

Turtle
soli deo gloria

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2015, 07:10:26 PM »
Skid, your persistence is admirable.  Did the most recent high flow exceed that of early December 2014?

Did you place any benchmarks so as to determine if the pedestal foundation has shifted?

Keep up the good work!

Turtle

Yes the river was higher than the previous high water event. We received warning that the upstream hydro dam had to release additional water as they were coming close to their reservoir capacity.

They had a guy monitoring river levels just downstream of our place and released just enough to fill the river to bankfull without spilling over the sides and causing flooding. I'll have to say they did an admirable job as the water was within an inch or two of going over.

Based on that information I will make the two arms that hold the water wheel to the main cantilever pipe a bit longer so I can not only take advantage of the absolute lowest flows, but also tip the wheel out of the water during flood events without having to remove it. It appears the location for the foundation is somewhat protected by the trees along the shore line.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2015, 03:31:41 PM »
Picked up my generator yesterday. 385kg, 7.5Kw, 50rpm permanent magnet. 850 pounds!

I'll start fabbing up the mounts and the rest of the cantilever arm soon, as I have most of the material on hand now. Weather is beautiful outside on the west coast right now...My grass needs cutting already!

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2015, 10:36:40 PM »
Ordered the ABB Aurora 6000W grid tie inverter and 7.2kw wind interface today. I wanted the windy Boy 8000 but support components are no longer available. If I end up generating more juice than what the ABB parts can handle I'll have to double up on the equipment. If nothing else I'll get a good start with this and derate if necessary.

All of the expensive components have been ordered, and I have the material to fab almost everything else up. I'll have to trench my cable in as well.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2015, 11:51:58 PM »
Good to see progress

Turtle
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #71 on: March 16, 2015, 09:33:12 PM »
Laid out the 400 foot power cable to the river, now need to rent a trencher. The cable is 3 conducter armored 6AWG as the generator is 3 phase AC.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #72 on: March 16, 2015, 09:37:47 PM »
Picked up the large drive sheave today. 63 inches in diameter with grooves for 3 belts. I'll use a ringfeder to lock it onto the water wheel shaft

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #73 on: March 16, 2015, 11:01:16 PM »
Picked up the large drive sheave today. 63 inches in diameter with grooves for 3 belts.

Cha-Ching $!$

You ain't shy about making this work, bro

Turtle
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #74 on: March 16, 2015, 11:20:00 PM »
Picked up the large drive sheave today. 63 inches in diameter with grooves for 3 belts.

Cha-Ching $!$

You ain't shy about making this work, bro



Turtle

I should break even in 20 years ;D

I used to spend money modding cars/trucks and eventually selling them for 1/2 of what I put into them not including labor. Building this is just as much fun and I may eventually break even some day...
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 11:26:53 PM by skid »

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #75 on: April 11, 2015, 08:23:15 PM »
I've been busy doing other projects but spent a few hours preparing the embedded support column for installation. I welded a slip-on pipe flange onto the 12" diameter sched 40 pipe, and cut 8 holes to tie it into the rebar in the foundation.

The flange will mate with another flange which will slip over the top of the pipe and allow me to rotate the cantilevered water wheel support pipe in and out of the river. When the support pipe is in position I will bolt the flanges together to lock it into place for operation

The holes in the pipe/column will have the foundation rebar pass right through mid way up the pipe and on the bottm 90 degrees apart. I have inserted sample 1" rebar into the bottom holes and the top holes are 3 feet higher than those and will help form the upper rebar mat in the foundation.They will also prevent any rotation of the column.

Instead of using tie wire for the foundation rebar I plan to weld it all together to make it strong.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 08:27:21 PM by skid »

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #76 on: June 07, 2015, 06:29:37 PM »
Finally received my inverter and rectifier from ABB. Now to complete the project I need to:
- Get a several more pieces of steel cut
- Weld up the cantilever
- Redo all the foundation rebar
- Form the foundation
- Pour the foundation
- Trench the power cable
- Splice two pieces of cable
- Install the inverter
- Install the cantilever frame onto the foundation
- Install the water wheel onto the cantilever
- Complete the hydraulics for raising/lowering the wheel
- Go for a test

thirteen

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2015, 09:40:41 AM »
Sounds like a test about 4:30-5. It is getting closer with each item done. It seems as if your prier planning is paying off. It will feel great once you let the water flow. Looks good from here. I'm sure you have covered it but if the splice will be under ground be sure to measure it off of two places if there is a problem years down the road. Plus a map of the lines running everywhere. Okay now but thirty years from now where was that line. Just an idea to play with or toss. 13
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TDC

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2015, 12:14:07 PM »
Very good idea about mapping the lines.  It would have saved my friend a lot of time!  Pictures or GPS locations are great also. I like pictures of the wiring and plumbing before sheet rock or paneling goes on a wall or ceiling.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #79 on: June 10, 2015, 12:26:32 AM »
Pictures or GPS locations are great also.
That, and possibly a few 5/8" rebar 5' long (frost line) driven into the ground a little below the surface, along, beside the trench.  A compass will deflect to a sunken steel rod, that's how I find survey markers.

You'll get there

Turtle
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thirteen

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #80 on: June 10, 2015, 10:26:11 PM »
Keithturtle
I've tried 3-4 time to find a corner marker. I'll try the compass sounds like it might work for me.  13
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