Author Topic: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project  (Read 66972 times)

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Bruce S

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #189 on: September 19, 2017, 09:42:58 PM »
Skid
I too have to say, that is some seriously awesome workmanship.
Those waters always that swift and clear?

I'd drop a line in those waters any time, might be too deep for brown trout but bound to be something nasty in there, pike, walleye,,,

AND thanks for letting us drift on this thread 
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #190 on: September 20, 2017, 04:07:36 PM »
AND thanks for letting us drift on this thread 

Thanks for the detailed and constant updates and pictures.
Something to really be in awe of the engineering and effort you are putting into this. Really does push the boundary's of DIY whats for sure.
Do you think you might have it turning in the ater by Christmas?

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #191 on: September 20, 2017, 06:44:22 PM »
Skid
I too have to say, that is some seriously awesome workmanship.
Those waters always that swift and clear?

I'd drop a line in those waters any time, might be too deep for brown trout but bound to be something nasty in there, pike, walleye,,,

AND thanks for letting us drift on this thread 

Steeleye, Arctic Char, Trout, Salmon are the main sport fish in that river. September is typically the lowest flows of the year as most of the snow in the mountains has melted

AND thanks for letting us drift on this thread 



Thanks for the detailed and constant updates and pictures.
Something to really be in awe of the engineering and effort you are putting into this. Really does push the boundary's of DIY whats for sure.
Do you think you might have it turning in the water by Christmas?

I sure hope so. Just got approval from the local utility for net metering. All I need now is the electrical inspection.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #192 on: September 20, 2017, 06:58:34 PM »
Did I mention some concrete got poured today? 15.5 cubic meters of concrete went into the form which weighs over 80000 pounds. I could hardly sleep last night as I was worrying about the forms breaking loose and me spilling all that concrete into the river.

I beefed up the forms, especially on the river side. I wrapped 5 heavy duty ratchet straps around the forms as a safety measure, and used some 1x5 inch aluminum flat bar  to keep the form straight on the river side.

As we poured the concrete we (brother in law and me) tightened up on the ratchet straps as the concrete level matched the ratchet straps. This might have been a bit of over kill as I think tightening the straps caused the form to bow a little bit. Either that  or him going nuts on the vibrator :o

Gave the top a brush finish so it doesn't get slippery in winter or when it is raining. Filled the pipe with concrete too.

Bruce S

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #193 on: September 20, 2017, 08:31:11 PM »
If the wheel doesn't work out , that could always be used as a ferry tie-up.
80000?! Wow! I've pushed a wheel barrow or 3 in my time, but not that much.
Is the weather gonna assist that the curing?
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #194 on: September 20, 2017, 09:04:48 PM »
I was thinking I could sun tan on it in the summer ;D

I have a roll of burlap that I'll roll out on it tomorrow. I'll keep it wet for a week or so. It's cooled off here in the PNW so I'm not too worried about it drying too fast.

Coles

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #195 on: September 25, 2017, 02:47:05 AM »
Great project!

I've read the thread with great interest, but apologies if my questions are already answered

Just a couple of questions.  How will the PMG work under partial flow conditions?  Does the PMG impose a load on the wheel to lower the RPM and extract the maximum power?  Does the efficiency fall off under variable flow conditions?

With regards the design of the wheel; you have open buckets?  With a poncelot wheel I thought the wheel worked on two principles... 1) the dynamic impact of the water jet coming from the sluice/flume box striking the back of the bucket, and 2) the static weight of the water held within the buckets as the wheel rotates.   Your wheel looks more similar to an undershot wheel, or even a crossflow wheel?

Thanks, and best of luck with this great project.

DamonHD

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #196 on: September 25, 2017, 03:55:49 AM »
If you want maximum power point tracking (MPPT), you may need to have the electronics do that for you, to get the most out of your variable flow.

Rgds

Damon

MattM

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #197 on: September 25, 2017, 08:19:31 PM »
Only about a month before it should be ready to remove the forms.  Some people get impatient and crack their slabs because they assume it hardens in a few days.  Its more like 27-28 to reach 95% cure.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #198 on: September 25, 2017, 08:34:42 PM »

Just a couple of questions.  How will the PMG work under partial flow conditions?  Does the PMG impose a load on the wheel to lower the RPM and extract the maximum power?  Does the efficiency fall off under variable flow conditions?

With regards the design of the wheel; you have open buckets?  With a poncelot wheel I thought the wheel worked on two principles... 1) the dynamic impact of the water jet coming from the sluice/flume box striking the back of the bucket, and 2) the static weight of the water held within the buckets as the wheel rotates.   Your wheel looks more similar to an undershot wheel, or even a crossflow wheel?


The PMG just makes less power at lower rpms. The faster the water wheel spins the more power it makes up to the generator's maximum of 50 rpm.

Poncelet wheels are undershot. He basically introduced curved blades to what were originally straight paddle blades. His blade design is a little more sophisticated than just a plain curve but for simplicities sake that's what I made.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #199 on: September 25, 2017, 08:36:27 PM »
If you want maximum power point tracking (MPPT), you may need to have the electronics do that for you, to get the most out of your variable flow.

Rgds

Damon

I  gave the company that sold me the inverter the power curve for the generator so hopefully they set it up correctly.

Coles

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #200 on: September 26, 2017, 12:40:00 AM »
With regards the design of the wheel; you have open buckets?  With a poncelot wheel I thought the wheel worked on two principles... 1) the dynamic impact of the water jet coming from the sluice/flume box striking the back of the bucket, and 2) the static weight of the water held within the buckets as the wheel rotates.   Your wheel looks more similar to an undershot wheel, or even a crossflow wheel?

Poncelet wheels are undershot. He basically introduced curved blades to what were originally straight paddle blades. His blade design is a little more sophisticated than just a plain curve but for simplicities sake that's what I made.
Ah yes!  Sorry, I was thinking of the Fitz Waterwheel design which is overshot.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #201 on: September 26, 2017, 10:03:56 AM »
I connected the lift cylinder to my tractor's hydraulic system to fill it with oil, to bleed the air out of it, and stroke it a few times before connecting the cylinder to the frame. I then tested the raising and lowering of the wheel to simulate adjusting it for water level changes and removal of the wheel for maintenance. I raised the wheel fully to its highest position but was unable to lower it completely as it would hit the ground. Everything worked smoothly.

Mary B

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #202 on: September 26, 2017, 03:03:41 PM »
I can't wait to see this in action! Whenever I pour a tower base(ham radio) I always waited 4 weeks for the concrete to set.

george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #203 on: September 26, 2017, 04:02:07 PM »

You're going to need a MUCH bigger tractor to install that mechanism and remove it for maintenance if you ever have to !  :0)

Pics really give some idea of the size of the thing.  Sure is a lot of machinery and engineering for 5Kw! When one takes into account it will be 5 Kw 24/7 and fuel free, that puts a different perspective on it. Can you sell the excess back to the grid and if so, how much can you get per Kw there?

Definitely one of the biggest and best made DIY projects I have ever seen on the net.  Can only imagine what the control setup is going to look like.

Thanks for the updates and allowing us to follow the progress. Very interesting.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #204 on: September 27, 2017, 08:31:34 PM »
Soon it will power the light at the end of the tunnel

Gotta love progress

Turtle
soli deo gloria

SparWeb

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #205 on: September 27, 2017, 11:15:37 PM »
So cool, skid   8)
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #206 on: September 29, 2017, 04:10:42 PM »
 Thanks All!

The riverside level control system is partially complete. I built a roof overhead to protect it from rain/snow. Right now it is tied to a tree but will eventually be positioned in a better spot . The three LED readouts in the bottom will give me readouts of the voltage/currents of the three phases so I can elevate the wheel to where it will make the most wattage.

I used quick connects to connect the hydraulic cylinder to my tractor. I will keep these on to connect it to the riverside level control system as well. If the battery or something else fails I will always have my tractor for hydraulic back up.



skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #207 on: September 29, 2017, 04:17:18 PM »
I removed the forms and welded the pivot cap on the top of the pipe. There is a large bolt  on the W/W frame that will bear on the pivot cap which will lift the works off the pipe flange (once the bolts are removed) and allow the frame to be rotated by hand. All the frame weight will be born by this large bolt when pivoting. I will grease the pipe above the flange to facilitate rotation but it should rotate easily as it is well balanced.


george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #208 on: September 29, 2017, 04:40:07 PM »
The pic above struck me straight off.  I looked at the way you have made the frame to hold the roof and laughed to myself at the quality of it and your way of doing things. Even something as simple as this is done to a very high quality level and presented so nicely. If it had been me the control box  would have been sitting on a pile of bricks or a  plastic crate with a big sheet of tin over the top and I would have called it done.  :-[

I had a discussion with a friend earlier in the week. For years he has been trying to change the way I do things. This could be summed up in one sentence he said the other day, " Everything you do works perfectly, you can do what supposedly can't be done but it always looks like complete $#|+." 
Which is true.

I always put function completely over form. If it works as it should, job done, move on. My friend on the other hand is like yourself and it has to look good as well as work perfect. To him one is no good without the other although maybe he is a bit too far the other way and goes to way too much trouble but it always looks like a million and a half Dollars.  He was showing me a trailer he built for his Go kart the other day. It makes professional car racing teams look rough. Over engineered, over presented, every possible feature built in, the attention to detail is endless. If I had done it the thing would be strong, water tight and made from whatever I had lying round and the rust would still be on it.

 Seeing that pic of that simple bit of protection you built really drives his point home. It's also testament to the overall quality of this project and your outlook on things.

I am trying to improve my presentation in things I do which is a bit ironic as in my game I win a LOT of contracts because of the way I present my work.
For whatever reason, that has been completely abandoned in my DIY efforts but I am now conscious of it and am going to try to do things different.

You really are going to need a brass plaque for this thing because it is going to become a landmark of your area. :0)

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #209 on: September 29, 2017, 04:41:49 PM »
To pass electrical inspection I also ordered a 175 amp breaker for my home panel to replace the 200 amp breaker. The panel is designed for 200 amps and theoretically I could exceed that rating with power supplies from the grid and the water wheel. I also need to order high voltage warning labels for the riverside panel and near the inverter to meet Canadian Electrical Code. At that point I will call the electrical inspector to get final approval.

Next week I will order a crane to install the works onto the foundation. At that point I can finalize the back fill of the foundation, position the riverside control skid, and run the power cable and hydraulic hoses from the control skid to the W/W frame.


skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #210 on: September 29, 2017, 04:46:34 PM »
The pic above struck me straight off.  I looked at the way you have made the frame to hold the roof and laughed to myself at the quality of it and your way of doing things. Even something as simple as this is done to a very high quality level and presented so nicely. If it had been me the control box  would have been sitting on a pile of bricks or a  plastic crate with a big sheet of tin over the top and I would have called it done.  :-[


Hey George,

In my case it's probably a mental disorder. I drive my wife nuts sometimes.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #211 on: October 03, 2017, 12:26:33 PM »
Well, today was the big day. I craned the waterwheel assembly onto the foundation. It was of course a lot heavier than what I anticipated. 12,500 pounds with the stand, and 11,500 for the final lift where we removed the stand.

Because it was so heavy we had to move it 7-8 feet at a time as the truck crane I hired could only boom it out so far before it reached its limits.

But we finally put it on the stand after I gave everything a good grease. I can easily turn the works on the pipe stand by hand even without the pivot bolt bearing down on the cap so it is pretty well balanced.

I couldn't resist dipping it into the water for a quick test run without any electrical connected. I did a few tests at different elevations and it turned the fastest when the side plates/blades were 1/2 submerged. I got 9 revolutions per minute at the current river speed which is slow due to low flows.

Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wstcw8NqXpw



SparWeb

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #212 on: October 03, 2017, 12:59:12 PM »
Congratulations on your Poncelet Wheel's christening ceremony  :)

That may be a very satisfying 9 seconds of Youtube Video for you, but totally unsatisfying for us who are watching, enjoying, and eager to see more!
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

DamonHD

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #213 on: October 03, 2017, 01:55:36 PM »
Very impressive!

SparWeb, don't be greedy: let the poor man draw breath!  B^>

Rgds

Damon

Bruce S

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #214 on: October 03, 2017, 02:45:07 PM »
What a wonderful sound!! Kinda like a steamboat chugging down the river
Thank you for sharing!
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #215 on: October 03, 2017, 03:08:36 PM »
Sparweb,

Once I finalize everything I'll do a more in-depth video. I still need to complete the trench for the electrical cable and hydraulic hoses, position the level control cabinet, do some more backfilling and final landscaping, etc.

Pretty happy everything went well today cause things were a little tense with the crane pushing its limits. Glad everything fit properly too!

Bruce, I'm a little surprised by the sound as well.