Author Topic: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun  (Read 9191 times)

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Windpower or Bust

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Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« on: October 11, 2014, 10:35:58 PM »
Hello Everyone! Yep I reside in a once free and open green energy wonderland now destroyed by special interests and powermad energy companies, March 2012 a new wind and solar sighting ordinance took away my right to wind and sun. In my county since then only 2 wind permits and one solar permit have been issued all to corperate entities, So last summer while on vacation the power out at my house and my chest freezer was off for 3 days and the power company said no way we owe you nothing.  So With a a wind or solar permit no power stations allowed. batterys may only be charged with the power companies electricity, and gas generators we fear will be banned next. Not kidding this is all too real and I feel trapped in a dictatorial 3rd world country. So I've joined the resistance and and together all of me is fighting back. Ie Live on a 10,000 acre lake with average yearly windspeeds of 12.5 mph and have puchased two large 16" attic fan turbines and they rarely stop. I have modified my wifes treadmill with a converted ceiling fan motor worth acouple amps. I. Am interested in building two axial flux one stator one roter alternators and have decided to go with single phase 16 coil/magent design but where I need help is no one may notice them cogging on start, stop and draw.

joestue

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2014, 11:55:16 PM »
I would invest in solar panels.. and cement pill boxes, and tell the feds to go f themselves.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

Windpower or Bust

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2014, 12:32:30 AM »
Solar is too visible and also illegal, I have the cogging visability problem worked out with a small screw drive motor on the stator using an rpm sensor and logic controller to pull the stator back and open the gap as rpms decrease and the oppossite as they increase,...Just have to figure out a way to stop the load drag from being noticed. Controller dump to another controller and bank and draw from that second bank may be the awnser but scematics for possible controllers are few, any ideas?

12AX7

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2014, 12:50:58 AM »
Just wondering,  Whom in your state/county/local government would you say is responsible for Act 185-40?

dnix71

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2014, 01:05:55 AM »
Huh?

http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=WI04R&ee=0

There is a huge disconnect between your complaint and what I see online. If you want solar panels on your roof there is no legal impediment to installing them. Selling back to the grid may not pay, but the grid isn't yours. Put up enough panels to load balance and install battery backup inside and you're golden.

http://www.seia.org/state-solar-policy/wisconsin

http://www.solarpowerrocks.com/wisconsin/ You can't lease home solar in Wisconsin, you have to pay cash. Big deal.

http://davesbrewfarm.blogspot.com/  This guy runs a brewery powered by wind near Hudson.

What exactly did you want to do?

Windpower or Bust

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2014, 02:36:46 AM »
There is another dsire link that covers act 40 But it does not fully explain it . No permit no solar no wind. Backup power stored power from wind is an illegal power station, no permits issued my county to residential land owners since act 40. All wind and solar in state must be ul listed and inspected. I live in a high profile lake district bent on act 40. I will not get a permit to build anything myself or for anyone else to build it for me by order of the township, county and state. Dig deeper. Testing designs to get to a goal of backup and current use power is beyond what is allowed.  I found a charge controller that will work for my needs. I will not be charged for the wind in my face or the sun on my back on property I have owned for 46 years. By trade I am and electrical engineer with degrees in telecomunications logic programming but I have to say this green energy thing is a new dance and the laws in WI are unfair as the day is long. Thanks for your inerest though and I have found a great new outlet for the study  windpower in these threads at fieldlines.com

dnix71

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2014, 03:13:11 PM »
http://psc.wi.gov/utilityinfo/electric/distributedGeneration/interconnectionProcedure.htm  The cities don't have much to say about it. If your local utility wants the interconnect or not is the question. You do not have the "right" to force your local utility to take power you make from solar or wind. Yes, in that sense you have a morally and ethically backwards state.Your state also banned the sale of anything that might pass for butter, so Wisconsin has a long history of ignoring little people.

If you really just want to '$crew the man' then convert your appliance and lighting to 12 or 24v. You don't need a permit or have to follow NEC requirements for voltages under about 30 [low voltage wiring].  This will not be cheap. Waeco, Engel and Koolatron make 12/24v portable fridge/freezers. A Sun Electric 12/24v full stainless steel upright http://sunelec.com/sun-upright-fridge-and-freezer-210l-dc-12v-24v.html  A top loading box freezer http://sunelec.com/sun-electronics-freezer-ref-258l-dc-12v-24v.html  Sundanzer has nice selection, too. http://sundanzer.com/

I have owned an Engel40 for more than 5 years with no trouble. Put a couple of agm sealed batteries next to the fridge and feed them from your mill or solar panels.

I have a bunch of panels sitting on the ground. You don't need a permit for that. Just block them up high enough that they will not be buried in snow. I don't have that problem living in Florida.

My laptop is powered from the sun as I type this. My room light is a homemade LED that is connected to the same batteries that power the fridge. I have an inverter for larger things. I air dry my clothes, use a 12v fan to keep me cool and have a washer small enough to run off the inverter if needed. As it is I wash almost all my loads on grid and my electric bill is less than $10 a month. $7.50 of that is the base charge and most of the rest is taxes. Use a broom and wet cloth instead of vacuuming, it's all up to you. Heat in the winter with nat gas or propane. Disconnect all of your phantom loads http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standby_power. Cook with gas instead of electricty.

My clocks are internal battery and one is a truckers clock that plugs in the dash. It keeps perfect time and wakes me up in the morning. If you just stp using electricity you will simplify your life. Consider yourself fortunate. A couple of years ago there was a grid failure in India. 600 million people lost power, and another 300 million didn't notice because they never had any to begin with. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_India_blackouts

Mary B

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2014, 04:53:33 PM »
Looks like the same ordinance every county is adopting concerning wind and solar.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2014, 07:06:43 PM »
Hello Everyone! Yep I reside in a once free and open green energy wonderland now destroyed by special interests and powermad energy companies, March 2012 a new wind and solar sighting ordinance took away my right to wind and sun. In my county since then only 2 wind permits and one solar permit have been issued all to corperate entities, So last summer while on vacation the power out at my house and my chest freezer was off for 3 days and the power company said no way we owe you nothing.  So With a a wind or solar permit no power stations allowed. batterys may only be charged with the power companies electricity, and gas generators we fear will be banned next.

Dude, I live in Wisconsin and got a freaking big solar array, wind turbine and like 4 or 5 generators - all totally off-grid.  Ain't seen no solar panel or wind turbine cops show up here.

I will ask the most logical question first:
Did you maybe pick the leaves off some ditch weed and smoke it green?

Isaiah

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2014, 08:46:52 PM »
Chris
 They will be coming sooner if not later to see you also.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2014, 08:50:06 PM »
Chris
 They will be coming sooner if not later to see you also.

Let's just say I ain't losing much sleep over it.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2014, 09:29:45 PM »
There is another dsire link that covers act 40 But it does not fully explain it . No permit no solar no wind. Backup power stored power from wind is an illegal power station, no permits issued my county to residential land owners since act 40. All wind and solar in state must be ul listed and inspected.

By trade I am and electrical engineer with degrees in telecomunications logic programming but I have to say this green energy thing is a new dance and the laws in WI are unfair as the day is long.

Just so folks don't get the wrong idea and fall for this, this thread is a total bunch of bullsh!t.  Wisconsin Senate Bill 185 (Act 40) reads in part:

66.0401 (1m)
AUTHORITY TO RESTRICT SYSTEMS LIMITED.
No county, city, town, or village political subdivision may place any restriction, either directly or in effect, on the installation or use of a wind energy system that is more restrictive than the rules promulgated by the commission under s. 196.378 (4g) (b).

No political subdivision may place any restriction, either directly or in effect, on the installation or use of a solar energy system, as defined in s. 13.48 (2) (h) 1. g., or a wind energy system, as defined in s. 66.0403 (1) (m), unless the restriction satisfies one of the following conditions:

http://psc.wi.gov/mediaRoom/documents/09Act40.pdf

And then it goes on to explain the conditions, which are mostly due to public health or safety, or location.  And the siting rules apply to commercial "wind farm" and solar power plants of 100 kW or larger.  The ordinances for Small Wind and residential solar are totally different.  The Bill was championed by Senator Bob Jauch from Poplar, Wisconsin.  Although Bob is retiring from public service at the end of January this year after 25 years in the Assembly and Senate, it was signed into law in 2009.

If your freaking Lake Association has some sort of problem with solar arrays or wind turbines, take it up with them.  But the village, city, township or county is forbidden by Wisconsin law to restrict installation of wind and solar energy systems.  And actually, all it would take is one phone call to my attorney and he'd have the Lake Association classified as a "political subdivision" and have their asses landed in court if they had any sort of ordinance more restrictive than the state law.

I realize these things can easily go right over the head of an electrical engineer.  But from this point forward I would require that you present facts instead of heresy.  If that can't be the case, then this forum has gone further downhill than I originally thought.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2014, 10:46:13 PM »
Can't modify a post on this forum.  So I have to add a correction.  Even a Lake Association, being a private governing body and officers not publicly elected to office, can't prohibit installation of solar or wind energy systems in Wisconsin:

A separate law, Wis. Stat. § 236.292, voids all restrictions on platted land that prevent or unduly restrict the construction or operation of solar and wind energy systems. This law effectively prohibits private land use controls (e.g., deed restrictions, homeowner association regulations, easements, etc.) from preventing the installation and operation of wind and solar energy systems. In the case of both access laws - public and private - solar energy systems are defined broadly to include both thermal and electrical technologies.
http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=WI04R


dnix71

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2014, 10:49:56 PM »
ChrisOlson what he wants to do is put up a grid tie without the utilities permission. That isn't allowed. I checked and found that if he wants a transfer switch he may be charged a monthly fee for being allowed to have it.
http://www.wisconsinpublicservice.com/company/wi_tariffs/ATS.pdf   [PDF warning]

The transfer switch is the key here. Without one you can't keep your side isolated from their side. Installing a battery bank and inverter to run a whole house isn't something the average Joe is qualified to do either, nor can you do a roof install of solar without some kind of permit and insurance and no one is likely to loan you money for a huge off-grid solar or windmill because it won't pay for itself. The Wisconsin Act also requires a $300k liablility policy in force for the smallest class of users.

If you live in a city anywhere your best bet is conservation.

Florida is a lot more user friendly toward transfer switches because of hurricanes. It keeps the lineman from getting shocked after a storm. FP&L also doesn't make money selling to homes here anyway, they make money selling to big business users.
In Florida, you can't install enough solar to run a house anyway. I have a coworker with a $30k 5kw system and she had to have a natgas genset installed with it to run the a/c if the grid failed. I make my off-grid system work by refusing to run a window a/c. I was born here and like hot humid weather. My sinuses crack and bleed when the air gets cool and dry.

I don't think most people realize how expensive it actually is to go off grid. It isn't cheaper than the grid. WindpowerOrBust can't be doing this for the money.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2014, 11:41:05 PM »
ChrisOlson what he wants to do is put up a grid tie without the utilities permission. That isn't allowed. I checked and found that if he wants a transfer switch he may be charged a monthly fee for being allowed to have it.

No, you need a Net Metering Agreement with your utility to hook your system to their grid.  And federal law requires that they allow you do it.  Although some utilities make the process so prohibitively expensive, and charge extra monthly service fees, so as to make it not practical.

Nobody needs a dual distribution ATS for a grid-tie solar energy system.  All that is required is a lockable disconnect on the customer side of the meter.  It is the homeowner's responsibility to provide the lockable disconnect that totally disconnects the residence from the utility grid, and it must be accessible by utility personnel 24 hrs a day, 365 days a year.  When you put in a solar or wind energy system that is connected to the grid, it is like any power plant owned by the utility.  It must be able to be positively shut down or disconnected in the event the lines need service.  That is the purpose of it.

The Wisconsin Act also requires a $300k liablility policy in force for the smallest class of users.

Again, this is only for grid-tied systems, and most homeowner's policies already provide in excess of $300K liability.  It is not a special policy - it is just a minimum level of liability and homeowner's property insurance coverage required to grid-tie a renewable energy system.

I don't think most people realize how expensive it actually is to go off grid. It isn't cheaper than the grid. WindpowerOrBust can't be doing this for the money.

Well, that needs some explanation.  We have a rather large off-grid system here and we used 20 kWh in our house today (so far) - 12 kWh of it coming from solar on a day when it was sunny to start with this morning, then clouded over solid overcast this afternoon.  The rest is coming from wind power and our batteries are still at 96% SOC at 9:30 at night:





Our average consumption is around 16 kWh/day.  We have about $70,000 in our off-grid power system for our house and my small shop that is capable of producing that, day in and day out, 365 days a year.

IF you amortize your cost of equipment over the typical payback time of 10 years that most grid-tie solar installations like to use, and add in the cost of standby/peaking generator fuel for off-grid, yes it is more expensive.  The advantage to being off-grid is that you own the equipment and have control of it, and your costs are fixed once you are set up.  So the biggest problem, really, is the upfront cost of an off-grid system.  The maintenance, long term, is actually very, very low meaning we have virtually zero out-of-pocket monthly expense for a 16 kWh off-grid residential system.  The other thing is reliability.  Our off-grid system is dead reliable.  Being hooked to utility power isn't.

So there are pros and cons.  But I wanted to clarify the fact that there is no restriction in Wisconsin to putting in solar and wind energy systems as this thread alleges that there is.  And, in fact, Wisconsin has laws in place to promote installation of these systems.  This 100 kW solar array was installed in town at the electric co-op just this past summer:



It is a "community solar project".  The electric utility put it in and a subscriber can purchase a portion of the array (like 2 kW or whatever).  Then the person who purchases part of the array gets a credit on their electric bill for what their portion of the array produces every month, along with all the state incentives, and federal tax incentives.  So the consumer gets the advantage of having solar, but it is maintained and kept at the electric utility so the homeowner doesn't even have to go out and brush the snow off the panels after a snow storm.  It was wildly popular beyond what anybody thought.  They sold the entire array to subscribers within 3 days of it going operational.

DamonHD

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2014, 04:55:41 AM »
Chris,

Thanks for the facts and the nice item about the community PV system too; that warms my heart a little.

Rgds

Damon
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2014, 08:56:32 AM »
DamonHD, the community solar project was sort of an eye opener.  The electric co-op put it in, deciding to take a chance on it.  And if they couldn't sell any subscriptions to it to their patrons, then they'd just take the credits and incentives on it and use it to offset their own use.

Little did they know that people would almost break the doors down to get a piece of it.  I think the subscription fee to buy into it is around $2.50/watt, but people want solar.  Just didn't know how much until they put that array in.

Bruce S

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2014, 10:27:15 AM »
Chris;
I sure am glad you put in the correct information here.
I was all set to nuke this post. >:(

Cheers
Bruce S
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2014, 11:09:28 AM »
Chris;
I sure am glad you put in the correct information here.
I was all set to nuke this post. >:(

Well, instead of nuking maybe providing the right information will prevent people from getting too involved in government conspiracy theories.  The utilities in Wisconsin are all FOR renewable energy systems right now because they have a renewable mandate to meet by 2015.  We had the utility people here this spring offering to run utility lines to our place so they could hook our large system to theirs and get the mandate credit on it.  We looked the situation over and decided to pass on it because they could not provide the service we wanted.  And my wife was particularly nervous about it because she doesn't trust it.  She said we're just fine on our own, so why change it?  So we remained off-grid.

But the point is - Wisconsin is one of the MOST pro-renewable energy states in the Union.

Bruce S

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2014, 01:24:27 PM »
FYI
Wisconsin also has one of the most up-to-date Fire fighting SOPs with due respect to the Solar Panel installs.
Whether it is a stand-alone (not grid connected) or utility approved (Grid-connected).

A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

ChrisOlson

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2014, 03:13:15 PM »
Wisconsin also has one of the most up-to-date Fire fighting SOPs with due respect to the Solar Panel installs.
Whether it is a stand-alone (not grid connected) or utility approved (Grid-connected).

Yeah, we have high voltage disconnects for our solar arrays that are plainly labeled for our volunteer fire dept here.  The problem is that the disconnects only disconnect the power to the power room.  Lethal voltages still exist at the panels.  But they have been going to training to identify that and avoid it.

Bruce S

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2014, 05:21:45 PM »
Wisconsin also has one of the most up-to-date Fire fighting SOPs with due respect to the Solar Panel installs.
Whether it is a stand-alone (not grid connected) or utility approved (Grid-connected).

Yeah, we have high voltage disconnects for our solar arrays that are plainly labeled for our volunteer fire dept here.  The problem is that the disconnects only disconnect the power to the power room.  Lethal voltages still exist at the panels.  But they have been going to training to identify that and avoid it.
That was one of the hardest things I had to do was get FF to stop and think about the voltages involved.
One just said he'd put his axe into the panels , I said SURE you would, then the Ambulances could cart you off to the hospital while the rest laughed and hoped he lived through it.
 
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Wisconsin Act 185-40 / Fighting Back / My Right to Wind and Sun
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2014, 07:39:39 PM »
That was one of the hardest things I had to do was get FF to stop and think about the voltages involved.
One just said he'd put his axe into the panels , I said SURE you would, then the Ambulances could cart you off to the hospital while the rest laughed and hoped he lived through it.

Well, here the volunteer fire dept figured out that with roof mounted arrays with UL Listed mounting using rails and clips that they can carry a little battery impact wrench, zip a panel off within seconds and disconnect the MC-4 connectors to it and it safely disables it and gets it out of the way.  We're one of the only ones around that got rooftop solar with all full UL Listed stuff and when they held their training session here on how to deal with a house or building with rooftop solar it was like a lightbulb came on over their heads when they seen it.  It was like, Geeze - those solar panels are really easy to get out of the way SAFELY without getting killed, within a minute or so.