Author Topic: enertech 1800  (Read 6129 times)

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Tooltime66

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enertech 1800
« on: January 25, 2015, 07:43:55 PM »
Hello,   new to this site.   What I've read so far it looks like a wealth of information.  My back ground is going on 2 years off grid.  Running 1100 watts of pv with a 7500 watt onan diesel generator.   8 Trojan batteries.  Household of 5 living in south west Michigan.   During the winter I run the onan about 2 hours a day.  The summer maybe 5 hours a week. 

I own and will be putting up a 115 foot free stand tower.  I have available a enertech 1800.   I am running a 24volt system.   Here is my problem.  What I understand about the  enertech is it needs to be hooked up to a 110v power source to operate.   What I think I want is to charge my batteries when the wind blows.   Can I do that with a ac wind turbine?

 Thank you for your time,

Tom


gww

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2015, 08:13:45 PM »
Welcome.  Some inverters allow ac coupling.  Outback does.  look at the tread in wind at this forum titled "wind not for the timid" or something close.  It is brought up of people using it there.  Outback has official publications on the very basics.  If nothing else this is maby a place to start your research.  I am not familure with your turbine and did not look it up.  I do say that if you area is not windy, it may not be worth the tower cost and you may want to add to you consideration the tare losses of your equiptment.  You might come out better putting your money toward more solar at todays prices.
Good luck
gww

Harold in CR

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2015, 08:39:46 AM »

 From what I remember, the Enertech machine was an AC motor, that is under braking, until the wind reaches a preset MPH. Then, the brake releases, the motor runs up to speed, then gets driven "over speed", to produce current.

 I believe that "1800" coincides with the motor RPM's that it runs at when producing power.

 Been a long time since we tried to get the dealership for one of the first machines.

Flux

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2015, 09:13:23 AM »
Not had dealings with one but I think Harold is right. It is an induction generator and gets its excitation from the mains supply and relies on the mains being stiff to hold frequency and volts.

It generates above synchronous speed, but the speed increase is small, it is a slip frequency just as in the case of an induction motor so in reality the prop sees it as a constant speed load.

It may be that it can be excited by some of the more modern inverters but not only must the inverter provide excitation ( fairly easy) but it must provide a load in the same way as the grid. in normal operation an induction generator is self controlling, the drastic increase in load with speed pulls the prop down into stall. There has to be some protection for high winds that produce over full load and there has to be some form of brake to deal with loss of load.

I suspect you will face many challenges but I don't have the experience to guide you. These things can be excited with capacitors and work well enough with hydro at constant speed, they can be used with wind but the control is far from easy and unless the Enertec back up control is adequate you may get into some tricky situations.

Flux




Tooltime66

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2015, 10:22:41 AM »
Ok, That is the info I was needing.  That being said.  I need to make decide what to do or not to do.   The tower is going up no matter what.  For a wfi repeater and ham radio.  Sure would like to put some sort of wind turbine on top.  I know that pv makes more sense.  But the tower is there.

Thanks,
Tom

kitestrings

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2015, 01:47:04 PM »
I'm going to give away my age here...but, I worked for, and on Enertechs for a number of years when they were in business.  Most of what's been said is correct.  The 1800 was an AC induction motor some minor winding changes to improve efficiency.  It's driven thru a gearbox, so the prop is relatively low and constant speed as Flux noted.

The control system was simple.  It used an anemometer to monitor wind speed thru an RC averaging circuit.  When the wind was sufficient (8-9 mph as I recall) a relay closed and connected it across the line source.  It then motored up to speed and when the wind was above the synchronous speed on the motor the current would start to flow the other way.  The shut-down and over-speed (>40 mph) is to de-energize which simultaneously closed a solenoid on a hydraulic pump/brake.  It may have also been equipped with tip-brakes for over-speed protection of the prop - say a gearbox or brake failure.

They really are suited to on-grid applications.  I'd sell it to someone who's connected and get something that suits your needs.  Maybe a small Bergey or a homebuilt axial.

Oh, and welcome to the Board.  ~ks

Mary B

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2015, 04:32:19 PM »
I drive by a twin tail enertech machine a couple times a month. Tip brakes as you mentioned. They re always tripped and keeping it from producing much.

Harold in CR

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2015, 07:03:59 PM »
 Mary B, it would be interesting to see a twin tail Enertech. They were down wind machines, as best I can remember. Not saying you are mistaken, just very curious to see one.

 Maybe it was an experimental design ?

Mary B

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2015, 06:27:27 PM »
This is an upwind design, there are a few like it around here from when Enertech first started. Next time I head that way I will snap a picture of it.

Mary B

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2015, 06:45:50 PM »
And this was when Enertech first formed then went under... not the current Enertech. A local was selling/building these under that name. Fiberglass fairing with twin tails that swoop out at the ends.

MattM

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2015, 08:07:45 AM »
Wouldn't something like that work best on a windmill built for torque and using gearing between the turbine and generator?

Harold in CR

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2015, 09:49:24 AM »
Mary B, thanks for that info update. I did a Google search and clicked on images, and found a swept split tail machine without any details.

Mary B

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2015, 05:48:31 PM »
The early Enertech's were geared I believe, ran an induction motor as a generator once a certain speed was reached.

joestue

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2015, 05:55:45 PM »
You could back drive a vfd directly connected to a 170 or 340 volt battery bank (or fool the VFD into thinking its connected to a voltage it isn't), and you could get limited operation at both lower and higher windspeeds by manipulating the volts per hz curve and changing the frequency.

A lot of work though, and you'll have to deal with a high voltage battery bank, unless you want to buy a transformer or wind one yourself.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

CBabcock

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2015, 12:46:29 AM »
Mary B- these "twin tail" turbines you talk of aren't in Minnesota by chance are they?  If so, I might know what you are talking about.  I spent the last hour or so scouring Google for picture of one, but no avail.  I'm guessing you might be seeing is a 35 kW Windharvester that was sold by Minnesota Windpower out of Marshall MN back in the early to mid 90's and not an Enertech.  All the 'havesters around here were installed on 100' four leg self supporting towers with a "crows nest" platform at the top for servicing.  There was at one time about a dozen or so of these machines installed within 30 miles of me.  I don't know of any of them that are still running and only know of about 3 that are still standing.

Mary B

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2015, 04:35:39 PM »
Those are the ones. I remember the shop they were sold from and they had Enertech on the display out front. One I know of is on MN 19 east of Marshall. Not sure if it is still in use.

CBabcock

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2015, 02:16:38 AM »
Gotcha.   :)  That's the one near Vesta.  I assume that machine is running away (brake failure) since the last couple times I've drove past it had at least 2 of the 3 blade tips deployed due to overspeed.  The 4 just south of Marshall near Lynd met their demise when the owner fiberglassed the deployable tips "closed" and the machines had no overspeed protection whatsoever.  It was like watching fish get shot in a barrel- which one was next to jump the tower in the next thunderstorm.  All 4 are gone now.  There were about a half dozen or so installed near Tyler and most have either self destructed or have been taken down after not running for years.  One was recently replaced with an Xzeres 442 10kW machine on the 'Harvester tower; looks to be a good install.

I do really like the little Enertech machines though.  I may be biased since I own one and flew one for quite a number of years, but they are really simple 'work-horse' turbines.  Off-the-shelf motor coupled to an off-the-shelf gearbox with blades.  The small units varied by what they used for braking.  Mine is a 1500 which used a mechanical brake between the motor and gearbox.  It was a Reliance Unibrake if I remember right.  The 1800 was the same machine with a boasted output rating to 1800 watts and an upgraded hydraulic brake system.  It had a hydraulic pump and reservoir which were mechanically attached to the motor and the hydraulics would run open circuit until power was cut to the turbine, at which point a solenoid valve would close and force the pump to pump oil against a relief valve.  The relief valve was set high enough that the pump would exert enough resistance to bring the rotor to a stop.  It was a lot smoother and gentler on the drivetrain compared to the mechanical brake which would slam to a stop within a few rotor revolutions every time the brake applied.  Power was cut to the machines at low winds to prevent them from continuing to motor and draw power below cut-in speed or they were also disconnected in high winds as a high wind shut down to stop the machine in a storm.  When the power was cut, the brake system would engage at the same time, hence the reason for the change to the 'softer stopping' hydraulic system on the 1800.  Imagine how many times the turbine could motor up to speed and then 5 minutes later, slam the brake on in a marginal wind day.  Lots, trust me!  Never did hear of anyone who was bold enough to try and run one of the little Enertechs with a grid interactive inverter, but the idea has been kicked around before.  Big dollars there to possible have a mishap with...even if the machine is free and you rebuild it yourself.  Personally, I don't think the little Enertech turbines will run very well on a battery based inverter.  Too much chance of the frequency or voltage being pushed out-of-wack causing an overspeed of the machine.  Keep in mind- these were dowwind, fixed pitch turbines that relied on a stiff source of grid power for power and speed control.  Stall was all that they relied on.  No load =  no stall + no furling = airplane on the top of the tower = very unhappy guy who put big bucks into getting it set up to have it explode, possibly wrecking the tower in the process.  Some of the later units had tip brakes in case of a brake or gearbox failure, but at that point, they would 'maybe' keep the thing from self destructing.  Mine had them, but were a pain to keep set correctly with ice and what-not bending them in the winter months.  Overall, too big of risk to try and run on an inverter if you ask me.  It's not what the turbine was designed for and the time, effort and same amount of cash could easily be put into a turbine that can be used as it was intended to do.

Corey


Mary B

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Re: enertech 1800
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2015, 04:17:54 PM »
I have wondered if that one was in use still. I do see it running normally fairly often so I tend to think it is still functioning.