Author Topic: Transiant Thermal Modeling of an Axial Flux...  (Read 3140 times)

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TDC

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Transiant Thermal Modeling of an Axial Flux...
« on: February 08, 2015, 10:08:05 PM »
I just stumbled on this. 
http://waset.org/Publication/transient-thermal-modeling-of-an-axial-flux-permanent-magnet-afpm-machine-using-a-hybrid-thermal-model/8214

Personally, rather than trying to improve cooling, I decided to increase efficiency and produce less heat in the first place. In other words, MPPT and chain drive.

kitestrings

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Re: Transiant Thermal Modeling of an Axial Flux...
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2015, 12:37:21 PM »
TDC,

I'm curious why you're thinking to do MPPT and a chain drive.  I assume you're using ferrite magnets, or something not as strong as Neo's - perhaps due to cost or corrosion issues, or both - but otherwise...

If you have MPPT and strong magnets for example, you can control the speed and efficiency of the rotor, and the heat issue is largely avoided through a more efficient alternator.  If you do ferrites and a speed transfer, the blade efficiency is probably good, the alternator efficiency is lower, but compensated for with the higher speed drive.  I guess the trade is losses in a converter vs. losses in a transmission, but the build is comparatively more complex with the transmission I would think.

~ks

TDC

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Re: Transiant Thermal Modeling of an Axial Flux...
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2015, 09:14:20 PM »
KS, I studied your build with great interest, very nice!

Yes, I'm using ferrite, the same 2" square  that Chris Olson used.  It's Hugh Piggot's latest design, 2 meters, 12 mag/9 coil. I'm thinking that a "12 volt" stator with MPPT will produce up to 60 volts and the transmission will increase that to 100-150 volts,  depending on the transmission ratio.  Somebody please straighten me out if I'm all wrong.....  I am a newbe!

While I have decades of machining and fabrication experience, I think most people capable of building a turbine could also make the transmission with a good set of plans.  My intention is to post drawings, instructions and a detailed parts list with suppliers.  It will be the same as Chris Olson's, but I do have a couple ideas to simplify construction for those with minimal tools.   

I'm not sure I understand your comment about converter losses vs. transmission losses?  Converter?

joestue

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Re: Transiant Thermal Modeling of an Axial Flux...
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2015, 12:57:40 AM »
Gain in real kilowatt hours from a proper loading via some kind of MPPT (even if its a dumb wye/delta switch) is going to be an order of magnitude more than the losses of the mppt so it's not worth even mentioning. Unless we're talking about a Chinese mppt clone that is only 80% efficient and burns out at half the rated amps..

One of the advantages of a transmission of some kind is the higher frequency at the output, and transformers become reasonable once again.
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Flux

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Re: Transiant Thermal Modeling of an Axial Flux...
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2015, 04:36:39 AM »
Everything with wind is a compromise and everyone's compromise is different so there is no correct answer.

The requirements for someone with skill and engineering facilities and a bit  of money will be very different from someone in a third world country.

Unless you are designing for mass production in a competitive market the thermal modeling stuff is interesting but dreaming.

With mppt the alternator losses even from the conventional alternator used here fall to quite a low level, it is easy to cope with a loss of about 100W, but dissipating 500W plus in a small alternator is a challenge.

Your concept is the easy one, keep efficiency high and not worry about clever cooling and thermal modelling. There really is no other way to get high overall electrical efficiency with battery charging than with mppt.

If you have a limited budget, limited resources and no means of repairing complicated things then your only requirement is that the stator does not burn out, the loss of overall efficiency is better solved with a bigger prop, it won't need a big increased in swept area to offset the efficiency loss.

With the simple scheme some chase every form of cooling and it does help a bit, but in reality you can't dissipate kilowatts in any small stator. Far better to use a bit more magnet and copper and add the necessary loss in the cables rather than include the necessary loss in the stator. Finally if the furling works within the alternator limits it won't burn out. If the furling doesn't work it will fry sooner or later.

Now back to your proposals, it will work great for you, you know the requirements and have the facilities to do it.

Even an alternator designed for direct charging with stall operation will become much more efficient with mppt. To get the absolute maximum out of mppt you can push the alternator efficiency way up on what is possible with direct charging, although the heating consideration is no longer an issue.

Now the speed increasing transmission is another trade off. Once you go to ferrites efficient low speed alternators become big and heavy and a bit costly, if you can get them up in the air there is no other real problem.

Increasing alternator speed is the only way to reduce size and weight for a given efficiency. With iron cored alternators there is a big snag with start up and low wind performance and it may not pay off for small machines. With air gap machines there is no iron loss and bearing losses and chain loss will not cause any starting problems and unless the speed increase is stupidly large you won't see significant low wind loss. You end up with a large gain in alternator efficiency for a given size and the overall set up should be lighter than the direct drive equivalent.

Chain drives do work when properly engineered and are a good option, belts and gears really are best avoided for wind power.

If you follow what Chris Olsen has done you will end up with something reliable and very efficient. Ferrite magnets have a real advantage if you are in an environment where neo corrodes,

The only thing I question is the point at which you go to chain drive with a 12v system, for such a low voltage system I personally would go for direct drive even with ferrite. It is difficult to hold down big machines at 12v, a 12ft mppt machine will require lots of batteries, although you do at least get away from huge rectifiers and connecting cables. For 24 or 48v the chain drive starts to look more attractive.

Why all this rambling? It was provoked by the thermal article, not by your proposals. I just wanted to set the field straight by explaining what suits one constructor would be useless for someone with different needs and facilities. Understanding cooling is good but the requirements are wildly different in trying to push an alternator from 95% to 98% compared with trying to cool something running at 40% efficiency. Once you choose the mppt route you don't need to worry much about cooling, you can still get more out by chasing efficiency but cooling would only be an issue when trying to use an alternator way too small for the job.

Flux

Flux

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Re: Transiant Thermal Modeling of an Axial Flux...
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2015, 04:54:31 AM »
Having read your reply to KS, I would like to make the point that rather than use a chain to double the volts it may be worth considering rewinding for 24v to get your 120v for lower transmission loss and match to the Classic.

If Hugh does a 24v winding for that machine I would start from there. I believe Hugh uses parallel circuits via lots of rectifiers for 12v machines. This makes perfect sense for direct charging but for mppt I would keep to a simple star winding. With the mppt , cable loss is no longer a big issue and it may be worth considering running an extra lead and keeping a high voltage rectifier somewhere drier and more convenient than on the turbine. Possibly 3 cables down the tower to a rectifier on the ground then run dc ( partly depends on whether the classic needs dc or has its own rectifier)

Just a thought.

Flux

TDC

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Re: Transiant Thermal Modeling of an Axial Flux...
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2015, 10:07:54 PM »
I believe Hugh uses parallel circuits via lots of rectifiers for 12v machines. This makes perfect sense for direct charging but for mppt I would keep to a simple star winding.

Is there performance advantage?

Hugh's 2F uses star for all voltages, two in hand for 12v, 90 turns of 14 AWG for 24v.  My plan is a multi-voltage stator wound with 90 turns of #17, two in hand.  IRP for 12v, star for 24v and the two in hand series connected for 48v.  Yeah, that's 12 terminals on the stator, 2 rows of six.  The plan is to test both direct drive and the chain. 

I'll put the diodes at the tower base, I see no great reason to put them up top. Is keeping the diodes dry only a safety issue or are there other concerns?


« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 10:17:56 PM by TDC »

TDC

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Re: Transiant Thermal Modeling of an Axial Flux...
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2015, 10:10:54 PM »
Gain in real kilowatt hours from a proper loading via some kind of MPPT (even if its a dumb wye/delta switch) is going to be an order of magnitude more than the losses of the mppt so it's not worth even mentioning. Unless we're talking about a Chinese mppt clone that is only 80% efficient and burns out at half the rated amps..

One of the advantages of a transmission of some kind is the higher frequency at the output, and transformers become reasonable once again.
Good point about the transformers. I was exited when the advantage of the higher frequency dawned on me, but decided to go with a Midnight Classic instead.  :)

Flux

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Re: Transiant Thermal Modeling of an Axial Flux...
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2015, 04:42:54 AM »
It looks as though you are using this as a test bed for many conditions, rather than just 12v as I originally thought.

I look forward to your findings and whether there is a significant gain from a chain drive on a 2m turbine.

My prototype mppt scheme is on a 1.8m turbine, so close, I used 16 off 46 x 30 x 10 neos ( 8 pole), for direct drive I should have needed to make it 12 pole with the same magnets so it is not a powerful alternator, in fact it may not be as  powerful as the 2F ferrite machine so we probably have a similar comparison.

The gain with mppt comes from the prop matching and from the gain in alternator efficiency. The prop matching gives the most improvement, but alternator efficiency can be raised as far as you like and still contribute. This is where the chain will gain you something but it will not show a dramatic improvement as your alternator efficiency should already be good with direct drive,

Your machine is bigger and the Classic will be more efficient than my converter and will track better so I would think you are looking at 1500W at less than 30 mph and with improvement over direct drive showing all the way up from cut in, possibly 30% up on direct drive at 12mph where these direct charging machines are considered good.

Flux