Author Topic: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz  (Read 43390 times)

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sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2015, 04:48:50 PM »
Getting back to the basics, apparently SMA have previously been slightly reluctant to help as the units serial number was "unknown".

To me that would instantly ring some alarm bells - the reseller has some questions to answer.

Was the unit ever fully accepted by SMA as legitimate ?

mab

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2015, 05:53:00 PM »
The serial no. issue is intriguing, but have SMA actually said that this is the reason for their reluctance to support the unit? (I may have missed that) - if that's so then certainly CM should direct his complaints to the seller not SMA, but I was under the impression that it's only other forum members who have suggested this.

I can't (obviously) say wether or not CM made assumptions or consulted SMA pre-purchase, but I wouldn't read so much into the phrase "the unit should be installed by a competent person" as that warning appears on all 230v equipment these days - even a simple light switch (I know - I'm a qualified electrician and competent person and see these warnings everywhere, everyday).

I'm not sure your what point you're making with your example - which seems to be part of the raft of advice and suggestions of how maybe the issue might be resolved or worked around long after CM originally installed and setup the device for DC and AC coupling.

In point of fact, as far as you or I know CM installed and setup his SI perfectly well with the correct settings and the appropriate DC shunt to allow it to work with DC and AC coupled sources; in proof of which it was indeed working as it should in that it was controlling the SB's when the battery was charged. The only problem was that SMA didn't say in their literature (and perhaps CM didn't ask pre-purchase - why would he?) that the frequency would go all the way up to 60Hz if the battery voltage exceeded the SMA setpoint.

As for getting back to basics; if the SI stuck to 50Hz + or - 10% CM and his appliances would be happy with his SI; but neither SMA or anyone else has yet to offer up any reason as to the logic of limiting the upper frequency to 60Hz despite the fact that the SB it is controlling should have shut down completely by 54Hz.

clockmanFRA

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2015, 06:43:45 PM »
sean_ork

What am I ranting on the net about?

Its just a machine that is being sold by SMA to any retailer,I paid £2500 for. I examined the specs very carefully to see that it could DC Couple and AC Couple, but from the word go the frequency goes to 60HZ.

The French SMA chap confirmed on delivery to me that its a proper SMA product and duly registered in their data base. I never mentioned anything about dodgy SerNo, I just said that my No and my complaint, makes someone at SMA unhappy about something.

1. Nothing in the manual says that the SI will go to 60HZ on the AC1 and damage house/domestic appliances.
2. Nothing in the manual says that the SI requires only SMA DC charging devices to function correctly.
3. Nothing in the manual says that the SI float MUST be higher than any DC Charging devices at Absorb/Bulk setting. And Nothing about WARNING your batteries might be destroyed/ over charged by the SI because of this arrangement, recommended by SMA service.

If I would have known that the SI cannot do DC Coupling and AC Coupling then I would not have purchased the SI and I would have not designed my system around the SI's capabilities.

Sorry if I am upsetting you sean-ork, but SMA ought to do better.

As regards your comments about my "ad hoc system" and  "have bitten off more than his scope of learning can manage with this unit" well that's your opinion. But please don't make assumptions or personal comments, there's no Need. Yes my main profession is just a lowly simple designer and manufacture of specialised Clocks and watch's and scientific instruments.
 
Yes, I have my grid guard code how do you think I re-configure my used/second hand SB's? But I am not going bumbling in to any of the SI settings as yet, because every day I Hope that SMA might say, we have a fix, or here's some new software. I live in hope you see.
 
.......
Whilst CM may well be a competent time keeping instrument maker, he may well have bitten off more than his scope of learning can manage with this unit - there would be no shame in admitting that, its a complex device. Even SMA had the foresight to password protect the "expert" menus. And elsewhere comments are being made based on an interpretation of what specific functionality will offer, the depth of understanding just isn't there.

Here is an example .......As regards the 'NoFreq'  Paul uses, I wonder if the voltage on the AC1 might rise a bit if the SB's power is not being used, (Ozoutels reckons it will), then perhaps I can set the SB's GTI's to disconnect themselves....? Or does the 'No freq' actually mean No frequency rise for the SB's or Not. Perhaps it does still rise by the 2HZ but the DC charging side is no longer linked to the HZ?


Are you inferring that forum members should not discuss SI issues and workarounds, because forum members are stupid.?
A couple of those guys actually have SI's and yes they have been on the SMA German SI installer course, and guess what, they have DC coupled controllers and they do not have issues with the Frequency going to 60HZ.

I openly discuss RE issues, and openly will discuss concepts and ideas.  I am very much of the open source brigade, especially with any of my RE designs and manufactured items.

Regards actually talking to SMA, Yes, i was at one time talking to a very intelligent young man and we went through just about every scenario you could imagine, " I really see weird the frequency wich the SI reach, as you say. I checked this at SD card data".
 However, it now seems that I must only talk to the German Service guys, and to be blunt I am not getting any sensible suggestions or any real in depth knowledge from them at present.

Life is to short to put up with manufacturers that produce stuff, give rubbish support manuals/videos, then forget to bother to warn or explain to the purchasers what actually works and what doesn't.

 

 

 
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2015, 09:33:52 PM »
CM

No one is upsetting me, I'm way past the age when the antics of others affect my mood.


Are you inferring that forum members should not discuss SI issues and workarounds, because forum members are stupid.?
A couple of those guys actually have SI's and yes they have been on the SMA German SI installer course, and guess what, they have DC coupled controllers and they do not have issues with the Frequency going to 60HZ


I'm not so sure where you see that inference, perhaps the same line of logic is being used as when you thought posting that fire damage incident from a number of years ago would aid your case.

The comment I posted was yours, and it just illustrates that you don't really fully understand how the unit operates - that's nothing to be ashamed about, its a complex system.

But you simply cannot expect any device to operate correctly when it is connected to a number of inputs out with the control system, that's what SMA are trying to tell you, along with a few others elsewhere.

You say that others are not having the same issue as you, so why not just reject the item and request a replacement ?

You will get nowhere starting any form of legal action against SMA

You will get nowhere starting any kind of social media campaign slating SMA as  producer of inferior products (even if your wife does have an MBA)

You will get nowhere trawling through endless internet forums seeking comfort and joy from well meaning, but generally I'll informed folks as to what settings to alter, or what a setting actually does.

However you will eventually make progress by presenting your system to the SMA techy folks in a logical, calm and polite manner. If the device is faulty, they will replace it.

Others might not have used as many words to tell you the same, but the message is the same.

sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2015, 10:20:18 PM »
CM,

On the 16th of March this year you were told by a wise man on another forum that your description of its behaviour was that of a faulty unit. You acknowledged that advice.

On the 20th of April you posted a correspondence from the German retailer stating that if SMA can confirm it is faulty that they will send you a replacement.

Above, you have mentioned you have been in contact with other users who are not having the same issues as you - this again (as has been hinted at by others) points to your unit being faulty.

On the 28th of April SMA informed you that your system may well be misbehaving as it appears to be a number of inputs out with the controlled system. Specifically uncontrolled battery charging resulting in the device seeing an over volt condition.

You've previously stated the serial number wasn't recognised, but above you now say that isn't an issue, or is it - here are your words from a while back.

"the form requires my SI serial number. When I put it in, the system says that the number is not recognised, and prohibits me from progerssing.

If I phone up and tell them the serial number, I am told very quickly, "Contact your SMA Service person by e-mail." end of conversation"

You've been told by a number of folks that its not operating correctly, you been told by others that they don't have the same issues as your report ......

So why aren't you simply chasing SMA or your reseller for a replacement ?






clockmanFRA

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2015, 02:39:47 AM »
So why aren't you simply chasing SMA or your reseller for a replacement ?
That's the whole point, sean_ork I HAVE BEEN. I asked for a repair, replacement or my money back.

If my unit is faulty, its faulty, full stop.

I believe my unit is faulty, SMA do not, there stance is that the unit is working normally.

As regards the fire damage SI, please look at the original posting on the matter, that SI was going high on its frequency http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,13582.0.html.

I do not want a fire or damage to any of my equipment by altering or modifying my system it works well and has worked very well for the last 4 years. I am not a cheque book RE man that just throws money at it to get a unsatisfactory result.

If I phone up and tell them the serial number, I am told very quickly, "Contact your SMA Service person by e-mail." end of conversation"[/

That is correct, so you tell me why SMA behaves this way?

"its a complex system". That's your opinion, what is complex?


As I have said:-
 1. Nothing in the manual says that the SI will go to 60HZ on the AC1 and damage house/domestic appliances.
2. Nothing in the manual says that the SI requires only SMA DC charging devices to function correctly.
3. Nothing in the manual says that the SI float MUST be higher than any DC Charging devices at Absorb/Bulk setting. And Nothing about WARNING your batteries might be destroyed/ over charged by the SI because of this arrangement, recommended by SMA service.

If I would have known that the SI cannot do DC Coupling and AC Coupling then I would not have purchased the SI and I would have not designed my system around the SI's capabilities.

Perhaps you are correct, I should just go away and put up and shut up.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2015, 05:57:07 AM »
I'm certainly not saying you should put up with the current situation - and I will repeat yet again, the fire was as a result of some ill informed alterations to the size of a dump load (the fact that it was mounted adjacent to combustible materials also should be remembered)

Paul reminded you of that fact.

He, along with a number of others, including SMA have noted (and I repeat yet again) that you have a number of inputs to your system that are not within the controlled system - so when your battery array charge exceeds the controlled systems set level, it will try to protect itself by frequency adjust.

That is expected behaviour, the fact that it swings so high should tell you how ineffective your charge control system really is - SMA and others have told you that because you have open loop control of battery levels the unit will miss behave.

I really do wish you well getting this resolved,  but all I see is a very disjointed, illogical and lopsided approach. Focus on proving your point. Threatening legal action is a pointless distraction.

SMA are still trying to help, take advantage of that before they start legal action against you.

One last question, did you consult with SMA technical pre sales BEFORE purchase in order to confirm that the device was indeed suitable for your implementation ?

clockmanFRA

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2015, 07:40:19 AM »
"they start legal action against you."


Bring it on, I say.

Remember I have a 48v 1100ah GEL battery, I have 5off DC Charge controllers connected to that battery.
Tristars and Midnite classic.

The SI is also connected to that battery.

I have installed the SMA shunt sensor, so the SI can see what is going in to the battery it is using. But the SI itself never actually has any of that DC going through it. So with the shunt installed the SI can adjust its own internal charging rates if it has any AC Coupling devices back feeding into the AC1 of the SI.

My SD card data shows the SI going to 60HZ in the night when there is no AC Coupling working ie, PV.

Perhaps 'sean' you would like to comment on that?

Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2015, 07:47:47 AM »
Perhaps this forum members would like to see what is being said on the European Forum, since 'sean_ork' keeps referring to it.

https://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,24521.120.html
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2015, 08:09:17 AM »
You are continually missing the point that many, including SMA have been telling you - you don't have a closed loop system - the most recent SMA response points directly at your uncontrolled DC chargers.

I can see that my attempts to encourage some clarity of logic are failing, perhaps you could at least answer the question posed previously.

Did you consult with SMA technical pre sales BEFORE purchase in order to confirm that the device was indeed suitable for your implementation ?




sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2015, 08:31:27 AM »
That's one of quite a few threads over there on the same issue.

This early one illustrates quite well the process you have used to resolve the issue - note how many assumptions are made as to functionality and how little credence was given to the advice given by the SMA reseller who questioned your uncontrolled DC charging - which is exactly the same point being made now by SMA directly.

http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,24455.0.html

If SMA told you this device would suit your application then you may well have a case - if you've adopted the position of a competent person and self specified then perhaps its time to start implementing some of the work arounds that have been suggested to you.

oztules

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2015, 06:43:56 PM »
SMA appear to have released a device onto the market that they know  will under certain circumstances drive the frequency to absurd limits that will destroy house hold equipment,,, sheer genius... even the Chinese are not that stupid.

Whats sillier is that they defend this by saying that as it is not a closed system, then is to be expected.

It is their frequency controlled system that has been poorly implemented in code that is at fault, and they are reticent to acknowledge that.

Any twit that codes for a freq shift control system is insane to allow that range.... when a cycle  or less would do the same thing.

A 20% shift from the proper operating frequency is  not in any way shape  or form  sensible or safe.... no matter what flim flam excuse they use... it is downright dangerous to allow that to happen... and any attempt to pretend it is alright is simple crap. Legal power over here is +- 1hz   grid capable inverters are +-.5hz.... but SMA think 10hz drift is ok in certain conditions... what a serious joke.

 I know of a few stories regarding SMA systems on large island resorts that lead me to believe they re so smart their arse could be on fire, but they are to smug to admit it.... and hope it goes out on it's own....

Overpriced dangerous toys.

There should never never ever be a situation the inverter finds itself in that it can drift 20%.. thats just stupid stupid stupid.... and to defend it is inane.

I'm sorry, your just a SMA floozie if you cant see that.  There is no excuse for a programmer to decide to blow up your stuff just because he knows you don't have exclusively SMA  in the whole system... which is basically what is happening... closed system or not..... should never be allowed to happen...under any circumstances.

Or put another way..... if the SMA cant easily control the charge regime... for whatever reason.... it decides to just blow the whole lot up by  a frequency drift of 20%... Thats the position you support.... sheer genius.... truly wonderful coding... and proud of it. It would be too simple to limit it to 1hz, and then give up trying .... no lets go 10hz and then give up trying.... still can't believe this.

Note to self...   Self... If I want to blow someones house system up... give them a SMA system... and a pwm controller as well for a little extra solar... apparently it's then programmed to do it!


...............oztules



Flinders Island Australia

sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2015, 07:37:47 PM »
How can SMA blamed for their equipments inability to cope with an input outside of their units control system ?

It sees the out of scope voltage, and tries to adjust - its not the fault of SMA if the connected charge systems aren't able to see, and react, to their adjustment.

Sure they could have limited the scope of the frequency shift, but what good would that do in this implementation ?

oztules

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2015, 10:41:41 PM »
Your missing the point Sean

I could care less if it did or didn't do what clockman wanted...thats a different problem.

The fact that the unit is capable of screwing up so badly is the real problem

The fact that SMA countenance this behavior is bordering on insane.

It is no wonder that inspectors here will tell you that it is the  name brand European inverters that fail the islanding tests... not the chinese ones.... now we can see why.... total disregard to standards.

If you sell a 50hz inverter... you can expect 50hz plus and minus at most, the legal variance for even remote generation... ie 1hz
They have decided to go cowboy, and disregard everything sensible and safe, and allow 10 hz... on purpose  ... WTF is that all about.

All ferro-resonant transformers, synchronous motors and asynchronous motor driven gear is in danger of over speed or over power or in the case of ferro-resonant transformers... over power, as they rely on saturation to keep the power steady... they are deliberately saturated..... most american battery chargers , and all older (pre pwm) HV supply transformers for the cyclotron in all pre pwm microwaves.......hell... even your record player and can opener will go silly.

A normal transformer will handle the upward freq drift ok, in fact revel in it, the ferro ones will probably blow up the loads, as they are not saturated anymore.

It is not ........repeat not alright for these manufacturers to decide to blow stuff up... just because you may use a separate charging system to supplement their gird tie/inverter system... and be smug about it too

Their inverters can be swayed  by simply charging your batteries on a dull day    with or without a closed system in place and then go so for  away from the 50hz  output that they claim to run at.

I don't care why they do it... they should not ......period.... totally indefensible and stupid and dangerous.

So if you have one of their silly  "closed" systems, and need to use a generator to get the batteries up, because the sun is poor, you face the prospect of system destruction from a purpose made "bug".. designed to do just that....ie  turn on the genny... charge the batteries, and watch the hz go into orbit

Sheer genius

Thats how SMA can be blamed and in fact could in some circumstance be possibly culpable.

"It sees the out of scope voltage, and tries to adjust - its not the fault of SMA if the connected charge systems aren't able to see, and react, to their adjustment.

Sure they could have limited the scope of the frequency shift, but what good would that do in this implementation ?"

It is fine that the SMA sees out of scope... it is what it does when it sees this. Only a dipstick  would then purposely decide... out of range... kill all items attached to system by doing something dumb.

Yes they could have done something sensible, like limit the freq drift to 1hz or so and give up... why 10hz then give up?

If it stopped at 51hz, Clock would be ok, his household goods would be ok, and this discussion would not take place.
Instead SMA have tried to defend the indefensible.. they should be hung out to dry. Thats just dangerously wrong.

Do they stipulate in large bold wriing anywhere...

WARNING:

DO NOT CHARGE BATTERIES FROM EXTERNAL SOURCE  WHILE SMA   IS CONNECTED

FREQUENCY WILL DRIFT UP TO 60HZ

POSSIBLE  DAMAGE  TO SOME OR ALL OF YOUR EQUIPMENT IS
VERY LIKELY




.............oztules
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 10:51:18 PM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2015, 05:11:36 AM »
That's a very long winded way of saying that CMs implementation of the unit in question is incorrect.

The frequency shift function is designed to signal compatable charge equipment to modify their charge rate.

CMs system uses chargers that are NOT able to modify their charge rate as required by this frequency shift signalling.

Its very very simple.

DamonHD

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2015, 07:11:14 AM »
And breaking attached appliances is also simple, and completely unnecessary...  I'm amazed it's even within type approval.

Sean, could you find a gentler tone please?  CM may be right or wrong or somewhere in between, but I think that you're being harsh given that (eg) in my own experience SMA is not always helpful when it could be and that as has been pointed out the equipment behaviour seems unnecessarily destructive (there would other ways of dealing with the situation), so CM has a case to argue.

Rgds

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sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2015, 08:10:25 AM »
I speak plainly and to the point.

Ill judged castigation of an entire Company, based on an individuals incomplete implementation of a product is really really a fruitless exercise - perhaps that's why CMs attempt to link this thread elsewhere have been moderated.

Any independent opened minded reader can judge my "tone" in comparison to the previous posters numerous abbreviated expletives and implied xenophobic remarks as they see fit.

With respect, your anecdotal experience is an irrelevant matter in this situation - SMA have very quickly pin pointed the cause of the issue, this was highlighted by CM himself in his own transcript of his contact with the reseller. And they continue, over many many months to respond to CMs communications - their message remains the same and is very clear.

There are numerous posts from CM detailing his communications with SMA - SMA have been trying to get the same message to sink in, as many others have, across the numerous forums this issue has been raised - perhaps at some point he might take note of them, even if he doesn't agree with them.

The product in case is well proven, implemented correct it will perform correctly.

DamonHD

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2015, 08:52:39 AM »
1) My anecdote was to refute an absolute statement by you that SMA would help "without fail".  Any one counterexample to that such as mine suggests more widely that at least some of your statements are not entirely supportable.

2) I really can't see how something purporting to manage a grid to which all sorts of things may be connected such as domestic appliances can regard a 20% frequency shift *for no actual purpose* as correct functioning.  Something is clearly wrong somewhere; maybe SMA should simply be a lot clearer that their equipment is in no way suitable for domestic use ... except that's not what their sales literature says.  I speak as someone interested in this area and SI in particular for some time.

We all have opinions.  Stamping all over CM is not progressing the discussion.

You may or may not be right about your assertions and CM may or may not be right about his.

Please find a more measured tone if you wish to continue.

Rgds

Damon
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oztules

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2015, 09:27:50 AM »
No, it is a long winded way to say he has been had... ripped off.

SMA seems to be very very reticent to refund the money and get their lovely unit back.... even they think it's overpriced junk apparently..... I certainly do..

I have to assume they would be capable of giving him the unlock codes to change the default for this... but you can bet they wont.

They could issue him with new firmware to reflect these changes .. easy enough too..... but you can bet they wont.

They could issue him a refund... but you can bet they wont.

No is it much smarter to string him along for a bit... he has a lot invested in this......so much better to make him sweat then have to buy more SMA toys ( frequency driven charge controllers now) to make it all work .... and trap another one in the web... another win for SMA and another "happy" customer.

Somehow they will force him to believe they are doing him a favor.... or he gets rid of the rubbish, and buys a real one.... because as they blow up one after another.. you will need to keep getting SMA stuff to remain compatible.. they are not stupid.

They refuse to acknowledge a fault they deliberately created, as it serves their purpose. They seem to have deliberately made their "system" break everything else unless you use their stuff exclusively... so they are right it is not a fault, it is a bargaining tool to bash you over the head with.. it will do this and will do that.. you have to  buy it to find out....... and  it will too... but only if you buy a heap of their other junk, and become a SMA zombie.... otherwise welcome to the dispute.

Getting a refund looks like pulling teeth, they have been there and worn folks down with the run around a thousand times.

CM.. it is never going to do what they said it will do unless you hand over your wallet.... it is just a over priced inverter now, certainly not the best, but probably not the worst.
Either you get out, or buy their solution, or use the techniques I mentioned to make it work. Any one of those is easy enough to implement, but make no mistake, you will get no help from them or their flunkies... even if the flunkies have the unlock codes, you'll never see them.... and I doubt you'll get a refund until they have sold their last kidney.

I have never ever heard of SMA being one bit helpful in a meaningful way....quite the opposite.... and that includes large projects too.... they are never wrong no matter what happens, they are never wrong.... keep reciting it until you believe it... like Sean does


...............oztules
Flinders Island Australia

DamonHD

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2015, 09:33:57 AM »
Can we all please try to take the personal heat out of this?  SMA is a large corporation and so has its good and bad parts!

Rgds

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sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2015, 10:08:18 AM »
There's no heat coming from my direction, just logic and credit where its due.

You may not have noticed that the thread linked to by CM on another forum has currently been removed from public view, with respect to those legally responsible for the content of this forum, they might be best advised to review some of the unfounded assertion's that have been made within this thread.

Perhaps third time lucky with my question.

CM

Did you consult with SMA technical pre sales BEFORE purchase in order to confirm that the device was indeed suitable for your implementation ?

DamonHD

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2015, 10:44:14 AM »
CM is legally entitled to whatever opinions he likes in general, and is no threat to the board either in expressing them as he has, I suggest.

I'll be locking you out for a while for attempting to intimidate CM and or Fieldlines to suppress discussion, if there any more of that.

Please stop the school-yard bully tactics.

Rgds

Damon
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 10:54:13 AM by DamonHD »
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sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2015, 11:11:28 AM »
I'm trying to encourage discussions that lead to a productive outcome with a logical, common sense based approach.

CM, good luck with your mission, I wish you well.

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2015, 06:19:42 PM »
FACT: SMA has nothing in their sales literature saying their inverter only works with their charge controller
FACT: SMA does not warn that the inverter frequency will unlock and drift far enough to do damage
FACT: SMA refuses to address the fault

Seems to me SMA is at fault here and should be either refunding the purchase price of the inverter or fixing the fault in a firmware upgrade.

sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2015, 06:27:38 AM »
There's nothing in any of the literature that came with my motorised transport that tells me not to load it with 30 ton of timber, or the brakes won't work.

There's an implied level of competence that the manufacturer has assumed - SMA even state that their equipment is to be installed by competent folks only.

Another pointed question would be - how long after purchase and installation were a full and comprehensive set of correct and up to date instruction and specification manuals obtained ?

SMA are continually attempting to illustrate how the observed functionality is expected, had the unit been correctly specified BEFORE purchase then perhaps we would not be on this pointless roundabout.

bart

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2015, 07:08:05 AM »
There's nothing in any of the literature that came with my motorised transport that tells me not to load it with 30 ton of timber, or the brakes won't work.

There's an implied level of competence that the manufacturer has assumed - SMA even state that their equipment is to be installed by competent folks only.

Another pointed question would be - how long after purchase and installation were a full and comprehensive set of correct and up to date instruction and specification manuals obtained ?

SMA are continually attempting to illustrate how the observed functionality is expected, had the unit been correctly specified BEFORE purchase then perhaps we would not be on this pointless roundabout.

   Bull Crap. All vehicles in this country have a GVWR posted on them.  Bet yours does too. If you don't know this, guess your not competent to drive either.

sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #59 on: June 01, 2015, 07:25:43 AM »
Quote

   Bull Crap. All vehicles in this country have a GVWR posted on them.  Bet yours does too. If you don't know this, guess your not competent to drive either.

Yes you are probably correct - perhaps it was a bad example - but how many folks know what it means, or have pleaded ignorance when stopped on their way home from a booze cruise.

Ignorance is never a great defence - make sure its fit for the purpose intended BEFORE use.

Bruce S

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2015, 11:17:52 AM »
As a MOD erator who is all for our 1st amendment , even for those not located here in the USA.

I'd like to ask the other mods NOT to Lock sean_ork's account.
While some may not agree with his point of view,,, he too has the right on here to post them.
HOWEVER as DamonHD has pointed out ,,,
CM also has the right to post his views.
 
AND anyone found to be trying to intimidate another forum member , will find themselves locked into read only, or barred which will include their IP addresses.

Since the forum is located here in the USA, CM is protected by our laws, as is Sean_ork's.

Sean_ork, since you have not check marked the country in your profile, I cannot say what your countries laws are with respect to your opinion on public forums.

I've also read most of CM's posts on the other forums and in May 3rd he found a viable short term solution , he disconnected the SI . Which is what I would've done long before my washing machine got messed up.

Also, there are a few people assisting CM whom I view to be every bit as knowledgeable as the best of EE's I've had the good fortune to work with.

I would ask that everyone who's going the name-calling route to take a breath , smoke 'em if ya got 'em, pop a tin/open a brewskie  and then come back  ;).

CM, If it was me? I'd certainly go the route of getting your money back; or at least let the UK's courts determine what course of action there is and move on.
IF your course of action is to try to make this equipment work, then follow OZ's suggestions to the letter.
AND KEEP POSTING THE RESULTS!!!
There are other who may be reading this that needs that information too.

SparWeb;
I found the tracking info you posted very interesting , though the tracking regime just doesn't jive with the SI's operators manual(but then I'm still reading it) . It would be interesting to see if the SI's update to could be reset to the older firmware.

Thanks to the other MODs for understanding my position on this !!

Bruce S




A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2015, 11:58:32 AM »
Thank you for your very reasonable reply.

I am from the UK - I'm not fully aware of what is and isn't deemed to be legally allowed to be posted on forums wherever they are based - everyone is rightly entitled to air their opinions, but when they opt to claim an opinion as fact (using historical, unrelated events) then perhaps their opinion becomes much less valid, and certainly (to my mind) opens up an avenue of legal action for defamation. That's what prompted my initial post.

I suspect this is why certain threads and comments have recently been removed from public view on a UK based forum. I expect there'll be lots of different opinions as to the merits of those actions - but that's not a topic for here.

I've read my comments a number of times, I see nothing threatening or personally offensive to others - if anyone took them as threatening, that's certainly not how they were intended.

I largely agree with the gist of the previous post - take the advise that is being given, there's a number of solutions being offered - that's pretty much what I've been saying in every post.

I disagree with regards to the case for action/refund - I've outlined just a couple of the reasons why this would fail, but that's just my opinion.

sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2015, 02:05:42 PM »
I've had another scan of CMs setup as detailed across the numerous threads, on numerous forums.

I'm happy to be corrected if the below is not correct, but its taken directly from posted content.

There are 3 AF style battery charging turbines, each connected to a PWM controller, each of which have a 2kW dump load attached.

Taken from CMs posted schematic, each turbine is rated at 1kW.

CM mentions that he is seeing (in a good breeze) 40 - 60A @ 56v - from just 2 of these turbines.

I wonder what the combined output is from all 3, when the weather is rather more exciting ?

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2015, 03:21:44 PM »
I was going to stay out of this (it's a bit heated) but hopefully I can add more cool water than hot oil.

I appreciate Sean's comments because they've given me a welcome counter-point to think about.  What is the expected operating environment of the SI?
Within such an "environment" there are certain well-defined paths for current to flow and limits on the amount, which I think everyone understands.
But the environment of the SI also includes channels of communication and suitable responses when messages are sent.
In this environment the SI expects to be at the top of the "food chain".
Enough with that metaphor, sorry.

I don't think Clockman's total RE system fits that environment.  There are too many DC sources directly coupled to the batteries, then the SI reacts incorrectly.

This is where Sean makes another good point:  How did the SI get dropped into an environment like this one without some foreknowledge that it couldn't adapt to it?
While it's valid to say, at this point, that the SI will not function properly under these conditions, there are others saying that these conditions are not abnormal.
In my opinion, DC coupled charging sources are quite the norm.  Any island-grid inverter should be able to regulate frequency based on some absolute standards, such as +/- limits on the base frequency, rather than be some kind of PID controller that keeps ramping up the control input until the output falls back into range.

Sean has also raised the question of damage or a fault in the SI, and that, too, doesn't seem completely answered from my (distant) perspective.  I would rather see a replacement of the unit, followed by closer monitoring of its behaviour, before deciding that it's a POS or going to court.  Clockman seems to have difficulty getting this to happen.  No way for me to tell if the frustration factor is helping or hindering that.  I thought a bit of independent analysis would help him, but so far no luck.

There:  mediation rather than moderation.  I hope it helps.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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Mary B

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2015, 04:12:47 PM »
I just looked over the literature for the SI.. nowhere is it mentioned it only works with other SMA equipment. The installation guide links were all defunct so couldn't consult them either. No manual download available that would work for me either... They sure don't want you knowing in advance how their stuff is supposed to work!

sean_ork

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Re: From New SMA INVERTER SI6.OH-11, battery full 50HZ Jumps to 60Hz
« Reply #65 on: June 01, 2015, 04:49:39 PM »
nowhere is it mentioned it only works with other SMA equipment.

Numerous references are made to what SMA call auto DC chargers, being chargers that are compatible with the SI method of signalling SoC - therefore bringing the chargers within the loop.

Isnt it simple common sense to accept that numerous stand alone charge controllers that use a fairly primitive mechanism to charge/divert will need VERY careful consideration when feeding an SI based system.