Author Topic: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.  (Read 8095 times)

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ytrachtenberg

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Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« on: August 12, 2015, 08:23:29 PM »
I've been building an alternator, and when I cast my stator the terminals no longer register a closed circuit. I'm stumped as to what could have gone wrong.

The stator is 3 phase, delta-wired, made of 9 coils (60 turns each) of 13 gauge copper wire. The wire ends were stripped and connected to each other with solder and a pinched copper sheath, and to the three copper terminals with solder.

Before casting, I used a multimeter to test the connection between each pair of terminals, and all showed a good connection. Once I cast the stator, none did.

I cast the stator using Bondo fiberglass resin. According to their technical help line the quantity of resin I used cures at 280 degrees Fahrenheit.

I've already tried sanding the terminals in case there was any resin left on them, and connecting pairs of terminals to a battery and load. Neither worked. I tried two different multimeters, both of which checked out on other circuits, with the same results.

Has something like this happened to anyone here? Anything that might shed some light on this problem would be greatly appreciated.

dnix71

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2015, 10:05:24 PM »
Bondo uses methyl ethyl ketone peroxide as a hardener/catayst.

http://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/10228    MEK peroxide reacts with a lot of things, including copper.

kitestrings

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2015, 02:19:46 PM »
Two thoughts, and not to rule out dnix's suggestion:

1) Could it be that your just not getting a good contact on your probes either between the wire and your meter probe, or the wire/terminal.  Normally they recommend burning the varnish off the wire, then shining it up.  I hope it is something simple - got to be frustrating.

2) Could it be that you didn't get a good solder bond and moving it in, or to the mold has loosened or broken the connection(s)

Good luck, ~ks

ytrachtenberg

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2015, 09:30:16 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions.

Dnix71:
The Bondo technical help line said the resin should harden around the wire without bonding to it, but that doesn't rule out a reaction of some sort. I've started to cast the same type of wire in different configurations to see if I can replicate the break. So far I cast a one foot piece of wire in ~1 inch of resin, and it still conducts. I plan to recreate the various connections (wire-wire, wire-terminal) and cast those, I'll update here when I get those results.

Kitestrings:
1) wouldn't that be ruled out by the fact that I got good connections between all the terminals (as well as every other joint in the circuit) before I cast the stator?
2) That's possible, but the bond seemed very strong. The terminals were a cylindrical piece of copper; the wires were wrapped around the side and the solder covered the wires along the whole circumference. In the other connections (wire to wire), the wires were wrapped around each other, and the solder fully filled the gaps between them and covered the twisted wires.
Can you think of any way to test this hypothesis without cutting into the resin? I may have to break apart the stator to find out what went wrong, but I want to try all the non-destructive tests first.

kitestrings

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2015, 02:13:15 PM »
I can't.  I think I would try another meter just to rule that out.  It sounds like you have tried more than one method, so it's doubtful...

If you have pictures of the coils in the mold you maybe able to drill out where the connections are prior to an all out assault.

ytrachtenberg

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2015, 05:12:37 PM »
The resin is semi-transparent, so I can see where the connections are. For now I'm replicating the various kinds of connections of the wires/terminals in the stator and casting them in the same resin, to see if I can replicate the failure under more controlled conditions. If in all those castings there's still a closed circuit, then I'll drill away the resin on the stator and try to get at the connections.

Mary B

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2015, 03:20:25 PM »
I am willing to bet you did not get all of the varnish off one of the wires and a solder joint is bad.

madlabs

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2015, 06:15:05 PM »
I am willing to bet you did not get all of the varnish off one of the wires and a solder joint is bad.

Agreed. Unlikely that the coils would fail like that. Methinks drilling, soldering and refilling will be the order of the day.

Bummer friend. Hope it all works out in the end.

Jonathan

ytrachtenberg

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2015, 01:31:48 AM »
Mary B and Madlabs:

Thanks for the responses.

Before I cast the stator I used a multimeter to test every part of the circuit (I checked the connection between each joint/terminal and each other joint/terminal), and all showed a good connection.

Further, since the alternator is wired in a delta configuration, each terminal has an independent connection with each other terminal. So for all pairs of terminals to now show a broken connection would require there to be 3 separate breaks in the wires (one between each pair of terminals).

If and when I drill into the stator, I'll check the various joints, but given the above, unless I've misinterpreted something it seems very unlikely that this is a soldering problem.

Flux

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2015, 02:16:03 AM »
A multimeter is useful for simple checks, but for this type of job I suggest that you pass current from a battery and measure the volt drop. if current is likely to go over 10A for long you need a ballast resistor.

Even so you may have what looks to be a good connection but it may be virtually point contact and the contraction of the resin could break that point contact.

Without seeing the process it is not really possible to make a realistic judgement but I am forced to the conclusion that it will be the solder joints, nothing is going to go wrong with the wire.

The wire needs to be scraped clean all round, all other parts you are soldering to need to be clean and fluxed, you need a lot of heat for a job off this size, either from a direct flame or a large flame heated copper bit (old style soldering iron)'

You should see the solder flow throughout the entire joint when it is hot enough and only practice will get the result you want.

 Although tidy I prefer to see as many main connections as possible outside the potting for newcomers. A good soldered joint will give no problems but winding errors are near impossible to correct when burried in the winding.

Hope you get it sorted, don't be put off.

One final point, if you are using the high temperature 2 coat wire you need to get through both coatings to get to bare wire.  You may be removing the top coat completely but leaving some of the first coat.

Flux

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2015, 02:58:00 AM »
When you make a solder joint you are making a gradually-changing alloy between the solder on one side and the metal wire or terminal on the other.  To do this the solder has to be hot enough to melt - and the terminal or wire has to be hot enough that the surface melts into the solder.  This means the terminal or wire has to be at least up to the melting point of solder contaminated with a nontrivial amount of the metal of the wire.

It's REALLY easy to not get the terminal hot enough.  Then the solder molds itself into the surface irregularities of the wire or terminal, but doesn't alloy with them.  This is one type of "cold joint".  It will show as connected to an ohmmeter at an ordinary setting (though it might show a noticable voltage drop in the drive-current-measure-voltage-drop resistance measurement configuration).

With this kind of cold joint, the resin's thinner may work its way into the microscopic crack and re-insulate it, corrode it into non-conductivity, or shrink away and pull the wire just off the surface.

When soldering you also have to hold the wire, terminal, and solder blob absolutely still as the temperature drops through the temperature band where some of the metals of the solder mixture are liquid and some are solid.  If you move it even microscopically while it's at this temperature, the solid and liquid components  separate and you get the pasty form of a cold joint.  This will also test "connected" in ordinary ohmmeter mode, but will also be pulled apart into non-connectivity by mechanical stress, and have micro-cracks that can be infiltrated by

Solders tend to have a composition near - but usually not quite at - the "eutectic" mixture, where the melting point of the higher melting temperature component is brought down to (eutectic), or near (near the eutectic mix, or with the additional error from the foreign metal from the wire or terminal), that of the lower melting temperature component by quantum mechanical interactions.  The closer to the eutectic mix, the narrower the temperature gap, and the less time the new joint spends in the vulnerable temperature region.  But when you have a heavy piece of metal you're soldering to, such as a bolt that will be your terminal, it cools slowly.  So even with the narrow vulnerable temperature band it spends a lot of time in the bad temperature range.  So you need to use a jig to hold it, rather than holding it by hand, so it will stay still until the joint has solidified.

With delta all six wire ends were connected to terminals.  It looks like at least three of the joints are "cold" - or all three windings got pulled apart by potting compound shrinkage.

If I had this rotor to salvage, the first thing I'd do is dig the potting away from the terminals and the first half-inch of wire.  Then I'd check whether the coils were intact.  If so I'd make new solder joints to new terminals, make SURE they're good joints, then re-pot the terminals.  (Or just bring out the wires and put a connector on them, rather than potting a nut to be the terminal an thus burying the joint in the potting again.)

ytrachtenberg

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2015, 01:33:37 PM »
Flux and Underground Lightning Rod:

Thanks for the detailed responses. I thought I had soldered it well enough, but there are things I didn't realize that I didn't know about soldering. It's quite possible that I didn't get the terminal hot enough, and I didn't hold the joint perfectly still either.

At this point it seems that resin infiltrating the joints or pulling them apart is the most likely cause of the failure. In the next few days I plan to solder similar joints with leftover wire using the same (flawed) technique I did on the stator, and see if casting those breaks their connection. If it does, my next step would be to cut into the stator and see if I can redo the joints.

ytrachtenberg

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2015, 01:49:49 PM »
Also Flux, I tried to wire the stator to a battery circuit, and there was no current going through the stator, it still acted like a broken circuit.

dnix71

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2015, 02:43:48 PM »
Ideally you would have sealed the solder joints before casting. Moisture will get under any casting eventually.

http://www.starmarinedepot.com/3m-marine-electrical-moisture-sealant.html

Scotch 06147 is $20 a roll and marine grade. Wrap the solder connections before casting and you will never have to worry about them failing from being outdoors.

ytrachtenberg

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2015, 11:12:18 PM »
Thanks Dnix, that looks useful. I'll use something of that sort for the next casting.

kitestrings

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2015, 10:07:04 PM »
I very much enjoyed reading ULR's detailed soldering description.  I realize many of the things I learned while cranking the forge blower for my Grampa, or holding the flashlight/drop cord for my Dad I learned through watching, seeing, and sometimes minimal explanation for why something worked (and you didn't always dare to ask when/if it didn't).  Not that it wasn't the salient points mind you, "make sure it's clean, use the right solder, and flux, tin your iron, get it clamped where it won't move, use plenty of heat...", but I sometimes find listening to someone explain the mechanics or physics or chemistry of things quite interesting.

Anyhow, I put some time in to trying to come up with a winding scheme and tensioner that would allow us to wind all of the coils in a series string without the joints.  I realize it can be done with soldered joints, but I just got to thinking why have embedded joints if there was a way to avoid it.  We eventually opted for individually potted coils, but I still think it could be done.  Worth the effort, I dunno, but I'd still like to try it.

Hope you can salvage this one.  Even if not, your next one is sure to be better.  Best, ~ks

clockmanFRA

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2015, 04:17:21 AM »
Thanks 'ytrachtenberg' for posting.

For decades now I have always finished my solder joints on wire to wire connections, with 'Glue Lined Heat shrink Tube'.

Previously in my early days I have seen wire to wire soldering pull apart,  fracture the soft copper, or the fine thin viscosity resin creep into a dry joint even when wrapped with electricians tape.

So for me I find the 'Glue Lined Heat shrink Tube', adds an extra safety device,  as it supports the soldered joint, holds the joint real tight when it shrinks, and it stops the resin from getting to the solder joint because the internal glue when hot seals most of the inside.

Over the years though I have seen the flux undergo changes, and I am not sure if the modern normally avaible stuff does what the old stuff used to.? 

 I still try to clean the joint after and ensure no flux is present.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

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Mary B

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2015, 02:53:01 PM »
Good video on soldering goofs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igqkhkff6cw

equiluxe

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2015, 04:05:32 AM »
Have you tried using an insulation tester on the coils, this will tell you if you have a poor contact or broken continuity. It is a good idea to weld or silver solder contacts that are going to be potted as low temperature solder can soften due to the setting heat, it wont melt but as it gets softer it looses strength then as the compound shrinks or expands it pulls on the joint.

ytrachtenberg

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2015, 05:03:34 PM »

Anyhow, I put some time in to trying to come up with a winding scheme and tensioner that would allow us to wind all of the coils in a series string without the joints.  I realize it can be done with soldered joints, but I just got to thinking why have embedded joints if there was a way to avoid it.  We eventually opted for individually potted coils, but I still think it could be done.  Worth the effort, I dunno, but I'd still like to try it.


Yeah, I've put some thought into that as well, I think it's possible. I've attached a picture I jotted down of how I think such a winder could work.


ytrachtenberg

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2015, 06:46:18 PM »
Have you tried using an insulation tester on the coils, this will tell you if you have a poor contact or broken continuity. It is a good idea to weld or silver solder contacts that are going to be potted as low temperature solder can soften due to the setting heat, it wont melt but as it gets softer it looses strength then as the compound shrinks or expands it pulls on the joint.

I haven't I don't think we have an insulation tester here.

ytrachtenberg

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2015, 07:02:21 PM »
Working on the hypothesis that it was a failure of the joints (either between the wires or at the terminals) that caused the stator to fail, I attempted to replicate the failure.
I made several new joints and cast them in 3/4'' of Bondo fiberglass resin (the same way the stator was cast). In the attached file below are the details of the joints.

Some explanations of the table:
Walt is a colleague who is much more experienced with Soldering
Unless otherwise noted, joints soldered by me were done to the best of my ability using what Walt and everyone here has taught me.
Burning: I placed the wire in a propane furnace, then sanded of the melted insulation.
Crimp: small copper (or maybe brass) tubes that go around each end of the wire and are then crimped to hold the wire in place.
Crimp+solder means that after being crimped, solder was melted into and around the crimps.

The joints were tested and they all showed a closed circuit before being cast. 24 hours after casting, I tested the connections again, and all of them again showed a closed circuit!

Some of these joints were intentionally poorly soldered, and yet all still worked after casting. I'm not sure how to explain this discrepancy. unless i can find some meaningful difference between the cast stator and these cast joints, wouldn't I have to rule out joint failure as the cause of the stator's failure?

Flux

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2015, 12:30:00 PM »
What you are doing sounds ok but before assembly and crimping I would flux the components. I am not sure of the materials available across the pond but relying on cored solder would be ok in the hands of a skilled person, but without extra flux it is only too easy to oxidise the copper before
the flux in cored solder takes control.

I strongly suspect you have now mastered the technique, but you may not have done on the first attempt.

Flux

kitestrings

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2015, 12:57:10 PM »
This was what I'd looked at doing at one point.  Never actually tried it though.

Flux

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2015, 01:09:19 PM »
Winding the coils in phase groups as shown makes a lot of sense but personally I would never bother but I have had many years experience of soldering connections. if you have the facilities, joining with slipshos is a luxury but it does need oxy acetylene or possibly mapp gas.

To make the best use of winding the phase groups in one go as show, I would bring out the 3 leads of the star point, no point in the extra work on the coils unless you can guarantee the actual star connection.
 

Flux

ytrachtenberg

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2015, 12:15:29 AM »
What you are doing sounds ok but before assembly and crimping I would flux the components. I am not sure of the materials available across the pond but relying on cored solder would be ok in the hands of a skilled person, but without extra flux it is only too easy to oxidise the copper before
the flux in cored solder takes control.

I strongly suspect you have now mastered the technique, but you may not have done on the first attempt.

Flux

Could you explain what flux the components means?

Thanks,

Yosef

electrondady1

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Re: Stator stopped conducting after being cast in resin.
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2015, 02:08:37 PM »
he means soldering flux should be applied to the thoroughly cleaned components to be soldered to ensure good conductivity rather than rely on flux core solder