Author Topic: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.  (Read 24244 times)

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clockmanFRA

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2015, 12:19:13 PM »
The falling down wall, is now all re-built and a new lump of Oak bolted into place.



 The Barn gets its scaffolding, English stuff, (I have my own) and its free standing so no stress on the original fabric, but I must be getting old?  as I ache all over putting that stuff up............ :-[ .

Help is handy?...............

 9199-1

9200-2

Now to get on with the New roof.........

Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.

3off Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (9 years).  .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (5 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled Used/SH GTI's, on my OzInverter created Grid, and back charging with AC Coupling to the OzInverter to my 48v 1300ah batteries.

oztules

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2015, 02:59:50 PM »
I'm feeling aches and pains just looking at the scaffolding......


................oztules
Flinders Island Australia

clockmanFRA

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2015, 11:10:58 AM »
Scaffolding is ridged, no swaying..

Roof stripped of the old slate tiles.

Wood repairs, with a couple of up joists/beams supported with new ones along side, and sorting out that collapsed end with new close boarding. I also fit metal angle brackets to lock the up joists to the wall plate, as some have their rusty nails corroded away, or the wood pins have rotted out.



New gutter clips where the up joists are. I normally fix them with a slight slop so the water drains nicely. Here the building itself drops 4 inches at the far end........ so no deliberate slope required.

I use a breathable membrane felt,  then up lats fixed to the up joist underneath, these will take the cross tile lats.

Yikes, ! I got through 1,400 off, 5mm x 45mm, long screws in 2 days,....... its nice to have good battery/electric screw drivers.  :)

 9242-1

It rained, and I got wet twice today, yuk.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 11:15:54 AM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.

3off Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (9 years).  .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (5 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled Used/SH GTI's, on my OzInverter created Grid, and back charging with AC Coupling to the OzInverter to my 48v 1300ah batteries.

clockmanFRA

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2015, 11:28:00 AM »
Half term school holidays, so the boys are helping on the roof.

9270-0

9271-1
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.

3off Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (9 years).  .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (5 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled Used/SH GTI's, on my OzInverter created Grid, and back charging with AC Coupling to the OzInverter to my 48v 1300ah batteries.

ruddycrazy

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2015, 02:11:47 AM »
G'day Clockman,
                           Eh mate to say it is enjoying to read this thread is like I use to do finding that oyster bar 2K off the coast when I lived in Port Hedand.....

                          Now if the mod's don't mind me hijacking this thread I would like to ask a question.


                         I have just started a new job as what I privately call a 'slave driver' but my title is a work for the Dole supervisor, today I went onto a new project where one of the jobs is re-pointing a heritage listed grandstand where there is a fair amount of work to be done. Now I've never done a project of this nature and I am expected to get long term unemployed people to do this. So if you can provide some info or links into this repointing of stonework I will have a place to start from.
                       

Regards Bryan
                           

clockmanFRA

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2015, 07:19:22 AM »
Hi ruddycrazy.

Yes I noticed your last post mentioned your new role. Good luck.

15 years ago I could have sent you some links, today the old traditional skills us older generation took for granted, are as rare as roking horse poo!.

For instance, 16 years ago the British Slate Roofers Association had info, all the different types of slate roof and the lap gauges on the Web. But not now.

Re, pointing, depends on the original mortar and the original Bricks. Lime or Cement ?. The mortar should not be to strong and should bind with the original.

Here is a vid that's about right........  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFzG9jwu_yw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRKcAW1OTnk

But be very careful not to damage the brick edges when raking out the old mortar. I use a 900W angle grinder with a 40mm long carbide cutter that has a diameter just under the mortar width, do not use a angle grinder as you have very little accurate control. And raking out to a good depth is important.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mortar-rake-4-flute-tungsten-carbide-reversible-8-x-30mm-with-M14-adaptor-/131627051434?hash=item1ea59569aa:m:mNEkW-3kl0ElMKdzGcRfHXw  or ......   http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Turptech-Professional-Rotary-TCT-Chisel-Mortar-Rake-Choice-of-5-Sizes/371402883136?_trksid=p2045573.c100034.m2102&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33828%26meid%3Dd1f9ad46bdce4d1083ba57df9d24a1ca%26pid%3D100034%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D400758907603

And I do not trowel I use this type of special fine mortar...   http://www.forsterindustrial.co.uk/files/Products/Parex/Streetscaping/Parex_Easipoint_Standard_paving.pdf

Where I use a an injection gun, its a big diameter gun like....      http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mortar-Gun-for-Brick-Pointing-and-Tile-Grouting-Cement-Applicator-Tool-794339-/351514295875

And you will need some re-pointing tools with different radius's like....... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Marshalltown-M505D-Tuck-Pointing-Trowel-Durasoft-Handle-3-8-/171846273062?hash=item2802d60826:g:mEsAAOxydgZTGbf0     or .......  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brick-Jointer-3-8-5-8-1-2-Laying-Builders-Mortar-Double-Pointing-Trowel-Tool-/252093421461?var=&hash=item3ab1f05795:m:mqqfL0cKZtcru33Yct7XpBQ

Trust the above helps.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 07:26:08 AM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.

3off Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (9 years).  .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (5 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled Used/SH GTI's, on my OzInverter created Grid, and back charging with AC Coupling to the OzInverter to my 48v 1300ah batteries.

Bruce S

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2015, 06:57:11 AM »
Ruddy,
IF Clockman don't mind  :) we  don't mind!
I agree with what he's posted. I no pointer by any stretch of the imagination , but I've learnt a few tricks and his posts show most.
The angle grinder was what I started with and quickly found out why NOT to use one.
Best
Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

MattM

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2015, 08:46:05 AM »
It would have been a great time to install insulation between vertical slats.  The aluminum faced moisture guard felt would have acted as a radiant barrier, too, since your horizontal slats create an air gap.  If you were worried about moisture drainage, you could have kept the insulation thinner than your slats.  Metal roofs typically use 1/4" of air gap under the panels.

clockmanFRA

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2015, 12:58:51 PM »
Hi MattM,

When finished this Barn/Lecture Theatre will be to Passive House standard.

With old buildings I build a new building inside, therefore minimal loading on the original building. So my new thermal block walls will support a new internal roof frame. This frame is lightweight as it supports itself and the plaster ceiling.

Here is the Old Medieval, (mostly 1700's), Long Barn, inside upstairs.



The thermal block walls support the first floor/upstairs and continue up to finally support the new roof/ceiling frame. I allow a space between the new frame and the old building for about 450mm, 18 inches of Insulation, the glass fibre stuff which is made here from re-constituted glass.

 9273-1 

9274-2

And that barn upstairs room bit finished...........

9275-3
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.

3off Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (9 years).  .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (5 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled Used/SH GTI's, on my OzInverter created Grid, and back charging with AC Coupling to the OzInverter to my 48v 1300ah batteries.

MattM

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2015, 03:47:42 PM »
The advantage to insulation under a radiant barrier is keeping the heat delta off direct contact materials.  Your slate gives you a hotside off the insulation, but your airgap isn't stopping radiation with felt  underlayment.  You also have two airgaps, the second being the rolls of fiberglass.  When hot meets cold you get condensation.  Your two airgaps will hopefully not have too much difference or the fiberglass is getting soaked over time, and with the moisture barrier paper underneath, there is where it's going to collect.

Look into cathedral ceiling insulation standards before you get too far.  I don't want to sound negative, it's just one of those situations you want to avoid with all the readily available data out there now.

clockmanFRA

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2015, 01:43:08 AM »
Its always difficult with Old buildings getting the moisture traps/leaks sorted and it takes a fair bit of time getting it right and can be extremely fiddly.

Thanks for the 'Cathedral ceiling Insulations'.

Okay my normal plan............Slate, 50mm Air gap exterior venting, (here we use 1 inch thick lath on 1 inch thick up lath), Breathable membrane, wood close boarding with 15mm air gap cross flow, then 75mm to 100mm air gap the up joists, a Insulation/vapour barrier (but not defined yet as depends on the local conditions and venting possibilities), 50mm air gap to my new frame work insulation, then 200mm fiberglass insulation roll, 200mm fiberglass roll diagonal to first, 75mm to 100mm fiberglass batts cut for correct fitting into new ceiling frame, 14mm plasterboard with finish.  No down lighters, ceiling is sealed.

My supporting walls will be over 600mm/ 24 inches thick, so good space for sorting out the eves insulation properly.

Insulate, Insulate, Insulate and more Insulation, I love the stuff.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 01:47:16 AM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.

3off Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (9 years).  .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (5 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled Used/SH GTI's, on my OzInverter created Grid, and back charging with AC Coupling to the OzInverter to my 48v 1300ah batteries.

clockmanFRA

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2015, 02:18:05 AM »
And the slates start to go on....... just 2,300 off, and 4,600 copper clout nails........

9276-0

Drill jig set up for 6 slates at a time with the holes spot on.
The table disc cutter very quickly cuts the slate to exact size for the angled roof ends etc.

 9277-1
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.

3off Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (9 years).  .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (5 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled Used/SH GTI's, on my OzInverter created Grid, and back charging with AC Coupling to the OzInverter to my 48v 1300ah batteries.

sean_ork

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2015, 07:31:46 AM »
Foil backed plasterboard ?

MattM

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2015, 12:34:09 AM »
You have great detail in your pictures.  In your starter row, with the partial slate piece, do they not use a drip edge / leaf in your part of the world?  Half round gutter needs all the help it can get to catch water. :)

Normally in the states we use drip edge / leaf metal to do two things, guide water and to prevent wind uplift.  We also use style D ridge metal on gable ends to prevent wind uplift.  Using a J channel on top ridge metal gives a sharp detail on a gable, too.

clockmanFRA

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2015, 02:41:11 AM »
Ruddycrazy,  heres a bit of my re-pointing lime mortar and bricks, and I am using the injection and smooth systems I talked about earlier.

Its rural here so we need satellite dishes, but I live in hope that technological improvements will replace the ugly equipment.

Hmm! must finish the whole wall/gable end so it looks uniform.

MattM, A traditional French Normandy house (1880's) gable end, they use tiles to protect the end up joist, and the wall plate and the main purloins. I use stainless steel screws on those slates that get the weather.

 
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.

3off Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (9 years).  .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (5 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled Used/SH GTI's, on my OzInverter created Grid, and back charging with AC Coupling to the OzInverter to my 48v 1300ah batteries.

clockmanFRA

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2015, 03:14:13 AM »
MattM, Modern French houses are slung up super quick with blocks and internal dab on insulation bats.

However, this is Normandy and I have tried to stick to the Ancient traditional styles and methods where I can.

Drip edge never seen it here, maybe in the UK but not here. Gutter boards/fosists are not common in rural areas. As my old joiner used to say, "Gutter boards, fossits etc, keeps me working", but nowadays these are now PVC/plastic with the manufacturers doing 'traditional styles' gota laugh.

Sadly all my old true craftsmen friends, Architect's, real Stone Masons, Bricklayers, Joiners, Cabinet Makers are all dying, but most have been out here and had a good luck see.
Mostly saying, "I, traditional methods," and "you got some work on here boy".
My friend the Cabinet Maker used to say, " Look, If Chippendale would have had marine plywood, he would have b..loody used it".

All the gutters, downpipes here are Zinc, and are still produced at a reasonable price. Lead is not liked/ encouraged by the authorities here.
As original roof methods the tiles have a 2 inch overlap from the wood roof boarding and I get the slates drip to be central just above the top of the 6inch wide zinc gutter.



9284-1

Again I use zinc ridge covers as traditionally done, I make my own as the French supplied ones are very wide and don't match the old, again I use stainless steel holding screws.
Zinc sheet is  aaagggra horrible to work with as it tears and is problematic when soldering large sheets together, flat roofs etc.

This barn roof has no gable ends.

This is the overhanging roof of the barn Entrance, and yes those main oak beams are in good condition and cantilever just right. Posh look, the small original guttering is still hanging there.

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And the other end, not a roof square edge anywhere.  ::)



Still slating.........

9287-4


Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.

3off Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (9 years).  .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (5 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled Used/SH GTI's, on my OzInverter created Grid, and back charging with AC Coupling to the OzInverter to my 48v 1300ah batteries.

sean_ork

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2015, 03:40:41 AM »
Perhaps you missed my question about using foil backed plasterboard, let's put it in a slightly different manner.

Matt has tried to make the same point.

In your multi layer insulation scheme, where do you think the dew point will likely be ?

clockmanFRA

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2015, 04:49:58 AM »
Foil backed plasterboard is not that good and its always a hassle getting the joints sealed on the foil side.

As I said 'the ceiling will be sealed', ie air tight. What vapour barrier I use on the plasterboard is still not decided yet.

Here in France Hydrofuge plasterboard is a common board, and does seal well and works well in moisture areas, sloping ceilings etc, but again its those joints.

There is also the tonged and grooved ceiling board sandwich structures that have the vapour barrier integral.

I will wait until my block walls are up to wall plate level before making a decision.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.

3off Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (9 years).  .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (5 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled Used/SH GTI's, on my OzInverter created Grid, and back charging with AC Coupling to the OzInverter to my 48v 1300ah batteries.

sean_ork

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2015, 05:19:17 AM »
It's a little late now, but a multifoil negates the need for massive FG thickness and a separate VPL - there's a lot of roofs being ruined here by folks who think more is better (which to some extent is true) - but adding additional absorbent materials without due regard to correct positioning of the VPL will result in soggy insulation, and eventually a rotten roof.

Fortunately cold roofs are effectively banned here, no warrant will be issued if the design includes one.

dnix71

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2015, 09:42:57 AM »
When you mentioned "cold roofs" I had to look that up.

In America what you call a cold roof is common an acceptable in many places. Our lumber is pressure treated to prevent rot. What people need to be careful with a cold roof is enough ventilation to prevent water condensing above the insulation.

The second risk is if plumbing is placed in the attic. I lived in Chattanooga, Tennessee for a year in a row of "townhouse" style apartments. The second floor of each unit was open to the first in the front by a wrought iron spiral staircase and the water and sewer was included in the rent. The pipes ran across the attic and down to each unit. The year I lived there one day the outside temps fell to 14F (-10C) and the pipes froze and burst above an unoccupied apartment. That made a mess that was not easy to repair. If the unit had been occupied, there would have been enough heat rising from the unit to prevent freezing.

The heating was all electric (Tennessee Valley Authority / 4 cents a KWH). My electric bill was $10 a month average.

sean_ork

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2015, 10:04:55 AM »
What people need to be careful with a cold roof is enough ventilation to prevent water condensing above the insulation.




That's the point, in the situation as described the dew point is likely to be at varying points within the FG.


clockmanFRA

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2015, 02:03:34 PM »
All standard Construction timber here in France is pressure treated properly, with real insecticides and anti/rot fungal agents.

Thank goodness the health & safety brigade of the UK are kept well out of France.

Personally speaking sean_ork, your talking rot again.........
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 02:09:11 PM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.

3off Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (9 years).  .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (5 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled Used/SH GTI's, on my OzInverter created Grid, and back charging with AC Coupling to the OzInverter to my 48v 1300ah batteries.

sean_ork

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2015, 02:22:33 PM »
CM, believe it or not, I'm trying to guide you away from making yet another potentially very costly mistake.

I will now leave it to others to further the point, and yes, I'm talking rot - but it'll be your roof timbers that rot.

Don't worry, you'll get plenty of warning; obviously you are free to ignore me, maybe Mrs CM will ensure you don't ignore the mould that will grow on your ceilings. You'll then find all of innermost FG to be saturated.

My point has nothing to do with H&S, its just simple building health and very basic building standards.

Good luck.

sean_ork

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #50 on: October 25, 2015, 02:26:58 PM »
CM, have another read of Matts post, he is trying to warn you of the same very likely issue.

The advantage to insulation under a radiant barrier is keeping the heat delta off direct contact materials.  Your slate gives you a hotside off the insulation, but your airgap isn't stopping radiation with felt  underlayment.  You also have two airgaps, the second being the rolls of fiberglass.  When hot meets cold you get condensation.  Your two airgaps will hopefully not have too much difference or the fiberglass is getting soaked over time, and with the moisture barrier paper underneath, there is where it's going to collect.

Look into cathedral ceiling insulation standards before you get too far.  I don't want to sound negative, it's just one of those situations you want to avoid with all the readily available data out there now.

dnix71

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2015, 05:16:47 PM »
I noticed that the barn roof doesn't have a tar paper layer. Here in south Florida, the roof will be tongue and groove interlocking slats if you have a ceramic tile roof. The rafters and tongue and groove can support the extra weight over the standard tar paper shingles.

In both cases there is a layer of tar paper on top of the plywood or tongue and groove roof. The overlapping papers laid across the roof are actually what keeps the roof from leaking. When the paper dries out or tears, you have to lift a square of shingles to patch the paper under them before reshingling.

Vapor condensing under the roof wood is still an issue, unless there is some kind of venting. Venting unoccupied attics is common in the south because it makes the roof material last longer and helps stop heat from being transmitted down into living spaces. The building I live in has a slot cut across the length of the crown and covered with a cap. The common name is "Cobra vent."

http://professional-power-tool-guide.com/power-tool-forum/index.php?/topic/5917-cobra-rigid-vent3-ridge-vent/

clockmanFRA

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2015, 05:49:12 PM »
Insulation is very controversial, just look at the heated discussions on passive house & insulation on the green building forums in particular where and what are the vapour barriers.

I noted MattM's comments.

Remember this is a building within a building, its a barn it and will be a lecture theatre and a garage for my vehicle etc repairs in comfort, it is not a dwelling.

As I said, I await till I am actually up between the 2 roof structures to see if the ventilation can be controlled or not, and if it can be sealed or not, if another vapour barrier is required and what the distances between will be.

Not sure where you are going sean_ork with your over excited gloom and doom comments. You don't offer much practical suggestions or methods, or defined links, just your usual buy this manufacturers products and your armchair waffling.

So for Forum members reading this, please seek independent advice on your insulation techniques.

Happy now?
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.

3off Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (9 years).  .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (5 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled Used/SH GTI's, on my OzInverter created Grid, and back charging with AC Coupling to the OzInverter to my 48v 1300ah batteries.

sean_ork

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Re: Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2015, 06:31:46 PM »
The correct method of installing insulation, in a manner that keeps a building healthy, isnt a contentious or controversial subject - if you understand the basic principles its very very simple. There's always a healthy debate over which manufacturers product is best suited, however there's no debate over the science.

You've misread what I've posted, there are no product recommendations mentioned, I'm simply trying to encourage you, as are others, to understand what is going to be happening between your layers.

There's no doom or gloom from me, perhaps Matt will be able to convince you - either way, good luck.