Author Topic: Solar Dump  (Read 6143 times)

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OperaHouse

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Solar Dump
« on: October 13, 2016, 03:33:38 PM »
Expecting a big resistor?  Out town dump, now called a transfer station on top of the old landfill.  A good use considering you can't build on it and probably don't want children playing on that land.  3,000 solar panels.  Town expects to net 175K a year off it.  Been looking at it for months.  Two days ago I noticed another pole had been erected and there was a meter box on the bottom still without a meter.  Seems moronic that that is the last thing to be installed.  It could have been producing power for months.

Bruce S

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2016, 04:07:16 PM »
I half expected to see an old out-house PVs on it  :o.

That does look impressive.
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SparWeb

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2016, 07:25:56 PM »
When you got the land, and feed in tariffs to make it pay, why not!?
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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george65

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2016, 02:03:26 AM »

Seems like an unusually smart move on the part of the town. I wonder what the catch is?  Maybe they paid some councillor or a friend of $20m to put the thing in so it will be years before it's near repaid?
The meter going in last seems worryingly curious.

The idea on the face of it seems a good one.  There is an old dump near me that is made into sporting fields and park but it's too big for the needs of the local sporting associations.  There is no shortage of parks in the area so it's never utilised to within about 40% of it's potential.

It would be interesting to see how the numbers of something like this stacked up.  Of course here the costs would be blown out of proportion by backhanders and every tom dick and harry wanting a cut and it would turn into a huge white elephant that cost the community Millions.

OperaHouse

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2016, 02:34:34 AM »
There is no out of pocket cost to the town.  They get a percentage of what is sold.

electrondady1

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2016, 09:31:10 AM »
any attempt top capture and use the methane coming out of the dump?


george65

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2016, 10:59:51 AM »
any attempt top capture and use the methane coming out of the dump?

That is a very good question.

Not from any greenwashed Globull warming POV, but rather a cost and efficiency one.
There are a number of places here capturing the methane and using it to power either IC or turbine engines to produce power and some co and tri gens producing heat as well.
One of these is only about 10 min away from me and produces a lot of power and was cheap to set up. They have been running it some time now and have found that even old ground nearby on the same landfill site is producing better than expected amounts of methane so there is currently a LOT of expansion under way including more community facility's that will be heated and cooled with by products of the energy generation.

 I'd guess that one of these methane powered facilities would be a contender on a cost Vs return basis to solar especially the 24/7 all weather nature  of gas generation as against the limited hours solar works.

In any case, I would not imagine it to be all that difficult to do both on the one site. Use the methane to fuel a generator and have the solar sitting on the top. As you would have to have the transformers/ control/ switchgear for the electrical side in place for either, making that a bit bigger and doubly feeding would lower costs and increase efficiency. You could be producing power when the sun don't shine which would be very valuable given the absence of solar at that time. 

Maybe it would be possible to store the gas during the day to run the generators harder at night when there was no solar?






Mary B

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2016, 06:13:00 PM »
I have often wondered why the really big hog farms in the USA don't use a dome over the manure lagoons to capture the methane that is given off. It would probably be more than enough to power the farm and sell some back to the utility!

george65

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2016, 05:43:31 AM »
I have often wondered why the really big hog farms in the USA don't use a dome over the manure lagoons to capture the methane that is given off. It would probably be more than enough to power the farm and sell some back to the utility!

This is done extensively in places like india and asia with the effulent from pigs, cattle and Chickens and is being done more in the west.

There are some really BIG facilities in Canada that run co gen setups that heat the indoor animal yards and sell power back to the grid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTJ4KFO50oc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbxI1R207B0

Bruce S

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2016, 08:43:30 AM »
In the southern part of Illinois, Granite City area, they used to merely burn the Methane , at night you could see the pretty blue flame. Now they have pipes running everywhere to capture this. NOT really sure what they're pumping it to or what they're doing with it , but they don't have the blue flames anymore.
From my own little tests, it needs to be bubbled through water to remove the nastiness from the vapor, but after that it can be pumped direct into an ICE or used in place of Nat Gas in stoves.

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george65

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2016, 11:37:47 PM »

I have been looking into biogas and set up a small 25 L test Drum.  I " fueld" it with Droppings from my daughters Rabbits, some old bread I found in the bin my wife had chucked out and About 1/4 Cup of sugar to get it going.
 To my amazement, the Drum puffed up in only 3 days. I kept bleeding the gas off for a fortnight and then decided to capture the gas and make something practical of the setup.  I put some more material in the thing including a pineapple I cut up we got which was bad and had High hopes.

Seems I killed the thing stone dead. Not a burp out of it since.  Ah well.
I'll empty it out now the weather is warming up and try again. I did see how the mash separates though. Definate upper and lower layer as it digests with just clear water in the middle.  At least gives me an insight where to put drains and feed pipes and why.  If I can get this to produce consistently ( hard to find info on how much to feed these things) I'll go to a 1000L IBC and make some real gas volume. I'd like to be able to get enough to compress it into gas cylinders to run our BBQ which gets more use than the stove in summer.  Might even get enough to make some hot water as well.

Bruce S

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2016, 11:24:00 AM »
george65;
What you had going wasn't really Bio-GAS  :o it was more Alky.
It puffed up cause the sugar and Carbs from the bread and "yeasts" go to making drunk yeasts, probably coming in at about 10% Alky if it quit puffing up.

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/methane_bate.html
Also, though there are tons of people who say this website isn't much good, the info they have on one of the early pioneers was this guy.
It also gives you other websites to go to for gathering more info on how he did things.

Also if you go to Mother Earth New's website and search for Methane digester you should find a few days of reading worth.
https://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/home-methane-digester-zmaz75zwar

Hope this helps
Bruce S
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george65

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2016, 11:23:25 PM »

That may well be the case with the booze Mix.

First of all I was surprised how quick I got gas. I was expecting a week at least just due to the fact the ambient temps were well below what I had read were required. I set the drum up because I was more hoping to get the starter bacteria going so I could kick a bigger setup going.
the other thing I read was the mix have to basicly be in the dark or you get a different reaction taking place.  When I " Improved" ( killed)  the gas production I put a couple of black plastic bags over the opaque 25L drum I was using.

One thing that had me a bit uneasy was the gas storage. The typical setup is to invert one drum into another full of water and the gas floats the lid up and weight can be added to give some pressure. I just didn't like this setup, one reason being all the drums I can get, and there are plenty, all seem to be the same size and won't inter fit.

I was pretty pleased with the solution I cam up with and think it offers some advantages especially where tools and resources may be limited.
I got 2 25L drums ( this would work with any drums at all)  and joined them with an interconnecting pipe at the bottom.  The first drum has the gas feed in at the top and is otherwise sealed bar for the connection to the other drum at the bottom. The second drum is open at the top.
Both drums are filled with water then the pipe from the digester is connected to the first one.

When the gas from the digester comes into the first drum, it pressurises it and the only way to make space for the gas is to displace water out the bottom into the 2nd drum.  This will over flow ( and could go to a 3rd drum) but it maintains a pressure on the gas and gives an expandable storage.
With additional drums daisy chained the system could be expanded to any size required.

I have also seen people bubbling the gas through water to clean it so it could be easy to adapt this method to bubble the gas as well.

I have looked up a lot about this on YT and different sites but still things I need to get a bit clearer in my head which will probably become more obvious with hands on practice.  I too have a repulsion to the journey to never site due to the blatant misinformation on there with Biodiesel and emails  and responses to others with old Keith whom very clearly has the mentality of "what I say is always right regardless of any and overwhelming proof to the contrary".
I wouldn't/ couldn't trust a thing on that site TBH. 

I'll reload my gas setup soon and might do a vid series on how it goes.  I did read in a few places that a bit of Sugar was good to kickstart the process but I'll go back and check that again. As I recall, sugary and starchy products were the most gas productive with this.
Now our temps are coming up I may do better this time.

As I see it, gas provides an inherent solution to the biggest problem with solar which is  storage. While inefficient, still might be worth using solar in winter to heat the digester to provide all year round gas.
 Of course there are other drawbacks to gas that like everything else make it more viable for some people than others ( easier to put panels on the roof than find space in the yard) but there sure are a lot of Indians using it in every sort of setup from running a small 2 burner stove to running industrial engines to generate all the power for farms and even retirement homes.

Bruce S

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2016, 09:11:33 AM »
I agree about the website. It used to be a very good one to begin with, then somewhere it went they way of the Dodo. The older stuff is still relevant for general info.
The  Indonesians have for a long time written stuff about Bio-gas Mother Earth News had a nice write up (I think I still have that magazine) about a guy out in California (John Fry?) that did a bunch of stuff too.
From the times I was doing this in 5 gal buckets, it took high Nitrate manure and starches not sugar. The stuff does need to be in the dark and warmed for a better output. The used off stuff is nice, no smell and great for the tomatoes!!

Seeing that you've planned to have the barrels filled with water and let the gas displace it, is a smart move. Otherwise there's the whole thing of allowing the first few runs to escape so there's no O2 and Methane accidental mixes.
I got lazy and quit making the stuff, but to start it up is pretty easy.
BUT those who don't plan ahead for safety first , it can be dangerous .

Keep us posted, it might inspire me to get back into it.
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Harold in CR

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2016, 10:29:50 AM »

 I was taught to use Lime water to bubble the gas through. Make a stirring contraption, so the lime/calcium doesn't settle and cake on the bottom. Use truck or tractor inner tubes to store the gas, if you make more than you can use.

george65

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2016, 01:03:59 PM »

Yeah, I saw the inner tube thing but the fact is they aren't cheap to come by.
My father has a wrecking yard and piles of Tyres and I can't remember the last, if ever time I saw an inner tube there.  last time I bought a car one it was $24.  I doubt they have gone down in price due to bulk manufacture.  Drums of pretty much all sizes I can get for nothing lying round any factory/ industrial area.

One of the things that got me interested in the gas in a round about way was my tomatoes.
I save the rabbit cage clean out and put that in a drum with water to make a slurry and water my tomatoes with it. I have 2 Vines atm that seem to have survived the winter and are now 12.5 months old and starting to bear fruit again.
They are right behind the rabbit cage so any trimmings, dead leaves and spoiled fruit goes to the rabbits who then process it into pellets which go back to the fertiliser drum which goes back to the tomatoes which.....

I noticed how the solids are always brought to the top of the fertiliser slurry drum and how much gas is trapped in it when you push it back down. I realise that's the wrong gas but it did get me thinking about capturing it before I read up and knew what it was.

Out of all the alternative energy's, I think veg oil is far and away the easiest and cheapest.  You can pick it up in qty. ( I get 200L batches) It's quick and easy to filter and prepare in cheap to build setups and it can be burned for heat, power or co gen of both.  It stores easily and cheaply and has a HUGE energy density compared to batteries or gas.

The drawback in power generation as against Solar is it is noisy to burn in an engine and said engine requires maintenance and wears out unlike solar generation .  Spose the upshot though is it will make power 24/7 under all weather conditions.

XeonPony

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2016, 01:36:56 PM »
A simple set up utilizing fridge compressor and a propane tank can allow you to pressurize it to 200psi quite safely.

biogass > water scrubber > Drier stack > Fridge compressor > Oil scrubber separator > Tanks
                                                                                                                           > Compressor oil return
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george65

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Re: Solar Dump
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2016, 10:07:33 PM »

LPG ( Propane) tanks here are plentiful and although rated to 4-500 PSI, I'd play it safe and stick to about 100.  LPG Sits at about 100-160 Depending on temp and gas level etc.

I have no practical Idea how much gas it takes to cook a meal for instance. Not even sure what the air to gas mix is.  I have some larger 45Kg tanks but not really sure how much gas that would equate to in vapor only at 100 PSI. Guess I'll have to worry about making enough gas to fill a tank first.
I'd probably use a car air con compressor on an electric motor. Those things I have and funny enough, I don't see many old fridges dumped around here.
I would Imagine that the compressor being toast would be the reason most fridges or freezers were Dumped in the first place.

Might get away with a car compressor with just a shot of oil in the inlet before I start pumping.

I see on YT the Indians put the Biogas into Cylinders which aren't very big so the air fuel ratio must be such that a decent amount of cooking can be done on gas that is compressed rather than liquefied.