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super64

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the safeiest diy wind turbine
« on: November 29, 2016, 07:27:37 PM »
Hello everyone

Well me and my brother are planning to build 2 wind turbines one 1 kw and the other around 5 kw we live in a house so we can spare the space but there are houses around us so we dont want to harm  anyone or anything am a civil engineer and he does fiberglass stuff .

i did a lot of research on this matter mostly people are talking about efficiency and cost but not much when it come to durability and safety that's why i feel there is a stronger demand for PV's than wind turbines.

personally am not a big fan of PV's because of their footprint. they require a huge area to make any real world power.

i believe a grid tie where a grid is available  better than an off grid because it eliminates the batteries  , the  company i work for demolished a 100Kw solar station for a utility company and moved the  PV panels to anther location and scrapped  everything else , it was a grid tied installation and a pilot project so they tried every method and every product available .

the main problem was that the after 3 years the batteries  lost large amount of their efficiency even though its was charged and  controlled (temp,voltage , pressure ,etc) with systems made by major companies and the batteries are all of good quality but there is a certain number of cycles any battery can take.

also electronics does consume alot of power , there was around 10-20% of waste.around 2kw was wasted in air conditioning alone .

Also why would a person keep a large amount of lead and acid around their house . unless you are in a remote area and you can place them far away as possible .


back to wind turbines .

so basically i feel a grid tie will be the best choice with a induction motor running at a fixed speed.

now blades can be made of Fiberglass with carbon fiber tips with a TSR of 7  .

for the blades it gets a little confusing for me . if there is a pitch system efficiency increase and with a simple PLC (programmable logic controller ) you can bring the turbine to a full stop during a storm  .
but again it might fail then its not durable anymore .
one idea if it had a hybrid passive /active pitch were it only pitch with the PLC in-case of over speed detected by the anemometer and the shaft speed.

drag  seems to complicated for real world and should be taken case by case.

bring the whole turbine down is no sense unless you work near your house or you dont leave your house 

as for the brakes anybody had any success with electromagnetic brakes, because friction brakes create debris and require a hydraulic system . anther system that might fail .


furling also some people say its good other say its not that good some also that it might over furl any experiences.
 
also i tried to contact breezy people in order to purchase their plans but i didnt get any answer .
are they still on business?

or is there anther source for plans?
any input is appreciated

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SparWeb

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2016, 09:22:13 PM »
Hi super64,
Welcome to Fieldlines.

That's a lot of questions - not sure where to start.  Maybe a few general thoughts, then home in on specific things from there.

You've declared a preference for batteryless grid-tie, but are still interested in a DIY wind turbine.  This is possible but must be managed with suitable electronics.  One of the reasons that DIY turbines tend to be paired with batteries is that a simple and passive interface is possible.  Battery charge management is needed when you have them - a batteryless system does away with that need but instead requires a different apparatus to control the wind turbine through all of its range of operation.  More expensive inverter and shut-down switchgear.

The DIY turbines you will see here tend to be quite simple.  Yes, there are some with pitchable blades, and fiberglass blades, and a handful with mechanical brakes, but most DIY turbines have fixed pitch wood blades, no mechanical brakes, and tail vanes that fold up in a way that prevents strong winds from turning the blades too fast.  The electric brake simply consists of shorting out the power wires from the turbine.  This can be done without shorting the batteries.  These features embrace the KISS principle in a couple of ways - simple to manufacture, simple to maintain, simple to understand and troubleshoot.  We get this done at the cost of style and elegance.  Since these are not commercial products for sale, I rarely see much interest in swoopy curves on this site.

Explore these sites for more background (just a very small sample of what is on the internet):
http://www.scoraigwind.com/ (Hugh Piggott's projects, he sells plans)
http://www.otherpower.com/ (Dan Bartmann's projects, he also sells plans)
http://www.sparweb.ca/ (my own projects)
Also check out the Diaries section of this site forum  http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/board,20.0.html

I wouldn't say that my project is typical, but it is a derivative of one type of WT system that used to be popular: rebuilding an industrial 3-phase motor with permanent magnets.  Another name for my project is a "Zubbly conversion" which you can search on this forum to learn more about.  I opted for this because I had already tried the other "axial flux" generator, found it lacking in durability in the storms I get here, and I can find 3-phase motors for free.  My approach may address the durability issues that you raised a couple of times, but it may not satisfy you for performance (it's heavier).

The title of this thread pulls in a different direction.  You may not have found a lot of good information about towers yet, but safety starts there nonetheless.  Raising any mass to a height above the ground involves risk, and managing that risk requires a tower that is sturdy and easy to manage.  Add to that complications such as limited space or the aesthetic tastes of your neighbours, you must not underestimate the effort required to make a suitable tower for a wind turbine.  I put my engineering background to good use making a tower that I could accept, and when you refer to your own civil engineering background I bet you have similar goals.

I'll leave it there - you're welcome to engage on any subject you want.  You may find it easier to open new threads on the forum for separate topics.  That way you can discuss each topic in more depth.

I look forward to hearing more about your plans!
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

clockmanFRA

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2016, 01:21:31 AM »
I have 3off 3.7m dia, 12 footer Hugh Piggott designs, been running now nearly 9 years.

Yes I have seen 2 kw out of each but normally in the real world I call them 1kW machines. The Chinese, for 3.6m, 12 footers, rate them as 3kW machines!

 The Books by Hugh Piggott and Dan Bartmann are excellent as they lead and explain the whole build process.
From the mechanical, electrical, casting the rotors, making the blades to making the tower ground anchors, control equipment etc, and all the time they explain the path.

Hugh goes to a 14 footer with his designs and Dan has gone bigger still with his.

Personally, as I am on my own when it comes to maintenance, lowering the turbine etc, the 12 footer is just right for me.

I think the important thing to say to anyone interested in domestic wind turbines, 'remember in a windy storm there is a wild horse on top of a pole kicking the jebeezers out of it.'

PV is lovely, you just go and disconnect it, and its off.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

george65

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2016, 05:04:28 AM »

Don't know a lot about wind turbines but I'm pretty sure a 5 KW model would be a substantial bit of gear.
Don't know what things are like in your area but I would be thinking if you are in suburbia, in my part of the world which isn't over the top with rules and regulations, you'd have a snowflakes chance in hell of putting something that big that high up.

I don't know about Turbines but I do know the sort of power and torque a 5Kw output equates to on a diesel engine and again, to me, that's going to be a bloody big set of blades and unless you have good wind, gearing an induction motor up as you will certainly have to do is going to have a pretty significant cut in wind speed unless the blades are huge. The size of the tower would also be significant and again I can't see that being remotely possible anywhere neighbours might be a consideration. Unless you are on an acre or more, Just can't see it being allowed or you not getting complaints.
I sure wouldn't be letting anyone have something that big that had the potential to drop on my property.

Have you any practical, hands on real world experience with any sort of power generation?  Don't mean to be rude but the more I think about it the less likely it seems you are aware of what you are wanting to do. Unless you are on some sort of semi rural or acreage where other properties would not be a worry anyway, I can't see this being practical where neighbours are a consideration.

Don't know what you mean about safe or from what aspect, structurally, electrically..... ?
How are you planning to get an induction motor to run at a fixed speed on a wind turbine? That is going to take some specialised electronics ( read expensive to control the load to get the fixed speed ( but not fixed output) or some expensive mechanicals AND electronics for a variable pitch prop.... again with variable output. Myself I'd be letting the turbine run any speed it wanted within a range and letting the controller buck or boost the output.

As you are in the US, I get the impression that most people are very insurance " sensitive" and my guess is your chances of finding someone to sign off on this would again be shoving the proverbial up hill in any sort of urban area or increase your premiums to a point the exercise was non viable.

As for solar, what are you using your roof for now and what do you have on it that is utilising the space you could otherwise use for solar panels?
For 5 Kw of 250W panels, you would need 25.4 Sqm of space.   Not difficult with most homes even if you had to split the direction they were facing.

Have you crunched the numbers for your location on wind speed and frequency Vs. average sunshine etc for solar?






super64

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2016, 03:11:21 PM »
First of all thank you all , iam really happy for all the inputs.

Sparweb:
I am sorry i do some times ask too many questions .

well yes its a DIY all the way but a diy shouldn't necessary be rough around the edges .
by spending a little more time and spend a few extra bucks and involve people and practice it can be perfect .
Thats  why i plan to build the 1kw first then the 5 kw.

As for the electronics your totally right my plan to use logic controller i found a ready made one called Crouzet millennium 3 its a very good PLC and/or i will build my own controller from adrunio uno it will pick up shaft speed using a hall effect sensor from the low speed shaft after the turbine and anther speed sensor from the high speed shaft and temp from the motor and then control the the turbine. a fail safe module will be a a temp normaly open sensor which when the motor overheat will trigger the brake mechanism which consist of pneumatic operate brake using a modified car brake system and a car brake rotor  or i will make an electromagnetic brake  which is connected also to the low speed shaft.

as for tower again your totally right again. i did some research i found a publication by a gentleman called John Corbett Nicholson google "Design of wind turbine tower and foundation
systems: optimization approach" it can be a good start .

Plus towers are stationery items  which give indications long time before failure and a  strain sensor ( costs 3 usd thanks to ebay ) can give data about the tower problems.
i will start anther thread with calculations when i start my build just for the pole.

Am also planning to built a gearbox but not my self i will give the plans to a machine shop  .

my approach is different .Am not looking for the cheapest or easiest or most efficient  wind turbine to build am planning to build the best turbine which require little maintenance and safe to operate "headache free".

As for inverters and switches i was under the impression that a grid tie squirrel cage or induction motor just connects to the main power and whenever the speed is more than the motor speed you generate electricity so why the inverters? 


thanks for the links but your website sometime is on and sometimes its says "cannot establish a connection " but i find a very useful information where it connects .




clockmanFRA

your wrong man your turbine is 300 kw as per the Chinese standards and dont forget to add a TYPE R sticker you will get anther 50 kw x)

9 Years is impressive please throw a link where you got your plans from. i would love to build it as well .
Also if you have a build diary i would love to see your build.



george65

First of all your not being rude your actually talking about things that alot of  diy people dont think about or simply ignore  (safety ,neighbors, insurance or not being responsible) .

"Safety Means " not to harm people , property ,animals. main concern no flying parts and no fire.
when people built unsafe wind turbines and it start making news it will lead governments to just ban /restrict them . just like quadcopters (many countries banned the use of quadcopters).

I Live aborad ,not in the US and i do live in a kinda of suburbia where i can park everything in front of my house ;) and for the law its as simple as if you break it you repair/replace it. there is enough space ,but space shouldn't be my or anybody else safe factor .

i do have experience with petrol and diesel generators , i do some camping and i own a 10 kw silent diesel and 3kw petrol for the camping trips. and i repair/service them my self  thats why i didnt say any car alternator non senses but one generator i came across is the Chinese 2 stroke brushless motor (the ones usually sold on sale below 80$.). Its a 2 pole rotor and 3 phase stator connected to a  capacitor. no AVR (automatic voltage regulator ) no brushes  .  turning the thing generates 12 volt at 163 RPM .and 110 volt 800 watt at 1500 rpm.

as the PV i don't have anything against them .and i will put some PV's over my roof but i do get a good wind on my area and i just purchased a logging anemometer to get the an accurate data of the wind so why shouldn't i put a nice looking wind turbine  .

Quote
How are you planning to get an induction motor to run at a fixed speed on a wind turbine? That is going to take some specialised electronics ( read expensive to control the load to get the fixed speed ( but not fixed output) or some expensive mechanical AND electronics for a variable pitch prop.... again with variable output. Myself I'd be letting the turbine run any speed it wanted within a range and letting the controller buck or boost the output.

well its a good idea if you have a way to grid tie it without batteries (if you have please let me know) .
my electricity company is the best "battery " plus i am under the assumption that all alternators need speed to make real power so a transmission is a must .

as for electronics and mechaincals they are not expensive at all  especially electronics using electronic  modules and items that are used for something else .

examples
A truck clutch servo is a pneumatic pump which can be used for force furling or whatever you want to do , it have a large amount of power and designed for harsh environment with a price tag of 50 usd.

as for speed control, blade drag even though i don't fully understand is also a way to avoid over speed.

if you want more info on the fixed speed wind turbine visit http://www.prairieturbines.com/
they have a good info but i hope they are still in business.

well i dont have everything figured out thats why i started this thread to serve as a way of  brain storming session .


 



 

 









 

 



 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 03:32:49 PM by super64 »
assumption is the mother all failure .

To Alcohol! The cause of... and solution to... all of life's problems.

Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!

Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of people know that.

gsw999

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2016, 03:39:44 PM »
a 5kw Chinese turbine head weighs 450kg , this is some serious weight , I hope you guys know your stuff because you will need to , cheers and good luck.

george65

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2016, 06:34:44 PM »

I Live aborad ,not in the US and i do live in a kinda of suburbia where i can park everything in front of my house ;)

Yes, I have often read of the problems people can have with this. It seems some parts of the US have people that complain about the most petty of things. A guy I used to talk to had this problem. The neighbours were always complaining about him parking his ute on the road in front of his house.
The vehicle was registered, a late model and fully legal to do so and the street was plenty wide so a car could be parked on either side and still 2 vehicles could pass with no problem but the neighbours didn't think a vehicle parked on the road " looked nice".

Another friend in Cali had problems with his neighbours with his gas fired BBQ. It was under the awning of his house as far away from them as could be but they complained and whined and then called the fire brigade. They came out a few times and of course did nothing.  Finally they came one day and when they saw what they had been called for again after warning the guy, they issued the neighbour a fine for calling them out for nothing.
Then they complained to the council and just wouldn't let it rest till my mate finally lost it and went in and threatened to beat the crap out of the old whinier if he didn't stop.  They call the cops if he is sitting out the back with a radio on or anything but now the authorities know he's a fruit loop and don't bother to attend.


Quote
I came across is the Chinese 2 stroke brushless motor (the ones usually sold on sale below 80$.). Its a 2 pole rotor and 3 phase stator connected to a  capacitor. no AVR (automatic voltage regulator ) no brushes  .  turning the thing generates 12 volt at 163 RPM .and 110 volt 800 watt at 1500 rpm.

That is interesting. I have a couple the same myself.  Not bad for running lights and I have used mine to run computers for many hours. People think electronics need perfect power supply but when a unit has a wide voltage input power supply and transforms the current anyway, they are anything but fussy, they will run on any sort of power within their range.

I picked up one of these gennys the other week by the side of the road. The mixture screw had fallen out of mine so I got it for that spare part alone.  I haven't looked at the rest of it but maybe I can use the gen head section on one of my diesels.  Might have to use half the crank case and crankshaft for end support but no biggie.


Quote
my electricity company is the best "battery "

I agree. I am in suburbia and use the grid as a battery as well with my diesel driven induction motor setup. I'm just getting into solar now because it's quiet and doesn't wear out or need maintenance.


Have you done a cost analysis on this yet?
It would appear to me based on where I am to be a VERY expensive way to generate power.
I looked up some wind sites and the cost they quote and the power generation they predict seems to make them a VERY long term proposition.   
Of course then you have to add in things like licences if applicable where you are and other sundry costs as nothing comes in as quoted or you estimate for DIY.

Keep us informed of your progress.
 



 

 









 

 
[/quote]

SparWeb

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2016, 11:48:55 PM »
Hi super64,
What problem are you trying to solve with wind turbines?  Do you have an unreliable grid?  Or is power from the grid too expensive?

I think I should be more direct.  You're making it more complicated that it needs to be.  Setting the goal to be grid-tie makes it necessary to connect only equipment that your electric utility deems safe.  They own those wires so they set the standard you have to meet.  It's a very high bar, so do your research and ask them what they require.  That equipment isn't cheap, and when the grid power goes out, so does your system.  Unless you want to pay even more for even more complex gear.  There's an old saying "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".

I should add that I am on my 4th wind turbine system.  Each time I have tried to add performance, reliability, or both; not always succeeding.  This last time I finally seem to have it about right.  When I first started, I thought I'd get mixed up with electronic controls too.  In the end, I have abandoned all of the sensors and gadgets.  I have a tough machine that works, and I know it works because the ammeter needle moves and the voltmeter is always in the right range.

You will be doing yourself a very big favour if you dispense with as much complication as possible with your first wind turbine, and simply get it running as soon as possible and keep it running for a year or so.  Yes, just collect a few old auto batteries and keep them charged for a year with a simple DC turbine.  Maintain that system in operation while you figure out the rest of the system you really want.  The education it will give you will be more valuable that all the advice I can give about PLC's, switchgear, strain gauges, and braking systems.  Once you have seen the value available with a very simple wind turbine, you will better appreciate the additional value in building a much more complex wind turbine system.  You may also be in a better position to appreciate the economic downsides of grid-tie, without having made as much investment before being forced to purchase the correct equipment later.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 11:54:27 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

clockmanFRA

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2016, 01:17:28 AM »
Hi Super64,

This link takes you direct to the Hugh Piggott buy book …… http://scoraigwind.co.uk/all-of-the-books-by-hugh-how-to-get-them/

Yes I did do a wind turbine build diary, but it was on this European Site…… http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17156.0     I got kicked of that Forum.

Since then I have now built the 6kW OzInverter , 48vdc to Pure sine wave 230vac. Thanks to ‘Oztules’, on here, a Brainy guy and puts his words into action, and others here have helped, thanks guys!.

We make everything, the toroid, control board, power board, cooling board etc, a very hardy and very very cost effective Inverter.

So good that I moved on. !
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 01:30:14 AM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

super64

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2016, 04:02:05 AM »
Quote
Yes, I have often read of the problems people can have with this. It seems some parts of the US have people that complain about the most petty of things. A guy I used to talk to had this problem. The neighbours were always complaining about him parking his ute on the road in front of his house.
i hate these kind of people and even more who allow them .

Quote
Another friend in Cali had problems with his neighbours with his gas fired BBQ. It was under the awning of his house as far away from them as could be but they complained and whined and then called the fire brigade. They came out a few times and of course did nothing.  Finally they came one day and when they saw what they had been called for again after warning the guy, they issued the neighbour a fine for calling them out for nothing.

No way!???!!!  people are getting more crazy what next are you still alowed to sleep in your house.

Quote
That is interesting. I have a couple the same myself.  Not bad for running lights and I have used mine to run computers for many hours. People think electronics need perfect power supply but when a unit has a wide voltage input power supply and transforms the current anyway, they are anything but fussy, they will run on any sort of power within their range.

yes totally i just send one to my local machine shop for modification i will explain what you need to do and share pictures when i get it back.

For this generator  the engine and the motor share the same head so you need to cut one in order to use the other part by it self.

Remove all the plastic , remove the starter ,coil ,fly wheel  then head and cylinder , then the carb .
remove  the carb .

from the other end remove the center bolt to remove the rotor then you need to cut the shared part of the engine block to install a pulley .

plus this generator is way under rated  usually the engine  fails but the "motor" is good .

Quote
Have you done a cost analysis on this yet?
It would appear to me based on where I am to be a VERY expensive way to generate power.
I looked up some wind sites and the cost they quote and the power generation they predict seems to make them a VERY long term proposition.   
Of course then you have to add in things like licences if applicable where you are and other sundry costs as nothing comes in as quoted or you estimate for DIY.

yes cost  is looking good IF the turbine preform as expected and require minimum maintenance.

as i said before i will start a thread for the converted 2 stroke generator turbine .


Quote
a 5kw Chinese turbine head weighs 450kg , this is some serious weight , I hope you guys know your stuff because you will need to , cheers and good luck.

are you sure  ?! because my 10 kw diesel generator with a full tank weight less , i don't have the accurate weight but 3 normal people can lift it so i think less than 300 kg and more 3/4 of the weight is the engine and the not so silent cover.

Quote
Hi super64,
What problem are you trying to solve with wind turbines?  Do you have an unreliable grid?  Or is power from the grid too expensive?

hello sparweb well my grid is very reliable that's why i will never go off grid ,
iam trying to just cut my bill and for some reason i like wind turbines . and i like to build stuff.

Quote
I think I should be more direct.  You're making it more complicated that it needs to be.  Setting the goal to be grid-tie makes it necessary to connect only equipment that your electric utility deems safe.  They own those wires so they set the standard you have to meet.  It's a very high bar, so do your research and ask them what they require.  That equipment isn't cheap, and when the grid power goes out, so does your system.  Unless you want to pay even more for even more complex gear.  There's an old saying "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".

your again right i do tend some times try to over engineer things which is wrong that's why iam tiring to seek knowledge from other people.  But am not planning to sell any electricity so my extra power if any well not go any further than my neighbors toaster or the government street lights .

the grid rarely fails and when it fails (car hit the transformer or pole) its less than a few hours.

so if you feel its a project doomed for failure please specify where i will fail . iam open for discussion 
the Breezy 5.5 costs less than 10k and i haven't heard any problem other than it need high wind speed. the full controller box cost less than 1000 usd and it seems the only thing you need
http://www.prairieturbines.com/purchase.htm

Quote
You will be doing yourself a very big favour if you dispense with as much complication as possible with your first wind turbine, and simply get it running as soon as possible and keep it running for a year or so.  Yes, just collect a few old auto batteries and keep them charged for a year with a simple DC turbine.  Maintain that system in operation while you figure out the rest of the system you really want.  The education it will give you will be more valuable that all the advice I can give about PLC's, switchgear, strain gauges, and braking systems.  Once you have seen the value available with a very simple wind turbine, you will better appreciate the additional value in building a much more complex wind turbine system.  You may also be in a better position to appreciate the economic downsides of grid-tie, without having made as much investment before being forced to purchase the correct equipment later.

Right , thats why i am building the 1kw version first which i will start anther thread for today "the 1kw grid tie wind turbine " your welcome over there.

iam trying here to figure out the best route to do so i might be wrong the idea of a motor thats is directly connected to the grid with no inverters might look good on drawings but not soo good in real life .

My idea of of brakes , temp. control might also be unnecessary . but again without all these things do you feel i can get away with just furling or drag.if so please advice me on proper furling and how to do it. because i didnt understand how to do proper furling .

Quote
Since then I have now built the 6kW OzInverter , 48vdc to Pure sine wave 230vac. Thanks to ‘Oztules’, on here, a Brainy guy and puts his words into action, and others here have helped, thanks guys!.

We make everything, the toroid, control board, power board, cooling board etc, a very hardy and very very cost effective Inverter.

So good that I moved on.

thanks for the links but can you put one more link

is it this one http://www.echorenovate.com/new-book--make-a-6kw-inverter.php

again thanks everyone for your help and support we are the space monkeys of the small wind turbines.
assumption is the mother all failure .

To Alcohol! The cause of... and solution to... all of life's problems.

Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!

Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of people know that.

SparWeb

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2016, 12:14:56 PM »
Super64,
I'm glad my comments were well received.

There is still one problem I need to warn you about:  In many places it is against the law to connect electrical generation equipment to the grid for which you do not have a permit.  You won't get that permit unless you have satisfied all of your electricity provider's requirements.  Satisfying those requirements is costly, and if you want to save a buck by not complying but hooking up anyway, then you are asking for trouble.  As in, police knock on your door, issue you a fine.  I am slightly exaggerating, but I need to get your attention because if you do anything not to the liking of your power company, they will cut off your supply, and then you really will need those batteries.

I am surprised that you are unaware of this, since you've expressed so much interest in doing a grid-tied generation system and (according to your member profile) you live in the USA.

In my jurisdiction (not the USA), it was against the law for me to do this at all up until about 2010.  Not even a permit system unless I was going to generate over 100kW or so.  Even now, it's not worth my time to grid-tie because they will charge me an additional connection fee just to do it.  If I connected without their permission, they have made it very clear that it would be grounds to cut off my supply until I paid a fine, and possibly appear in court.

I can't help you break the law, so statements like the following just won't go over well here:
Quote
...my extra power if any well not go any further than my neighbors toaster or the government street lights...

Sorry for beating you over the head, because I would much rather encourage you than discourage you, but I was afraid this misunderstanding could lead to trouble.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

super64

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2017, 02:34:04 PM »
Super64,
I'm glad my comments were well received.

There is still one problem I need to warn you about:  In many places it is against the law to connect electrical generation equipment to the grid for which you do not have a permit.  You won't get that permit unless you have satisfied all of your electricity provider's requirements.  Satisfying those requirements is costly, and if you want to save a buck by not complying but hooking up anyway, then you are asking for trouble.  As in, police knock on your door, issue you a fine.  I am slightly exaggerating, but I need to get your attention because if you do anything not to the liking of your power company, they will cut off your supply, and then you really will need those batteries.

I am surprised that you are unaware of this, since you've expressed so much interest in doing a grid-tied generation system and (according to your member profile) you live in the USA.

In my jurisdiction (not the USA), it was against the law for me to do this at all up until about 2010.  Not even a permit system unless I was going to generate over 100kW or so.  Even now, it's not worth my time to grid-tie because they will charge me an additional connection fee just to do it.  If I connected without their permission, they have made it very clear that it would be grounds to cut off my supply until I paid a fine, and possibly appear in court.

I can't help you break the law, so statements like the following just won't go over well here:
Quote
...my extra power if any well not go any further than my neighbors toaster or the government street lights...

Sorry for beating you over the head, because I would much rather encourage you than discourage you, but I was afraid this misunderstanding could lead to trouble.

hello again your comments are always well received and welcomed .

You are more experienced than I do , well most members here are more experienced than I do .

I think most members here are old timers am relatively young (early 30 ) so what I like here is that people try to solve things the right way which kids these don’t bother to , well these are different times you can get rich by posting silly things on snapchat.while hard working mechinic ,engineer ,techinican , welder etc make cents on the dollar.

For the electric company I actually had a visit to our local Electricity and water authority (am not in the US ) and they don’t mind they need the schematics of the system plus inspection and some fess for the smart meter  .
assumption is the mother all failure .

To Alcohol! The cause of... and solution to... all of life's problems.

Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!

Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of people know that.

super64

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2017, 01:25:44 AM »
Update to my project .

it been a while since i lasted posted .

well i did install a weather station (acurite )
i paid a very good price for what i got . 200 usd inc. shipping

i get live readings from the unit by its display , i put an extra desktop pc as a serve for the  logger software (comes with the unit ). and i get a reading every 10 mintue  to my mobile phone and i can acess the excel sheet from any pc .

The good thing i have wind and the bad thing i have too much wind sometimes .

the unit is roof mounted and only 1 meter above any thing.

i get an avarge of 20 km/h (12mph) for at least 4 hrs per day and a peak of 40KMH (25mph) at a total of 6m (20ft ) hight .

back to my project i purcahsed the breezy 5.5 book .

well the book is good but its more of a set of  plans than an actuall book.

the good thing is that most parts needed for the turbine are ready made commerical products .
the bad thing is that you cannot modify the plans as there are no calculations or anything regarding to choice of "these parts " . and the blade profile isnt the best out there.

am only tring to say its a very good instruction plans for a diy with very basic tools and skills.

i only hope they publish more background information on there next book so its easier to use these plans .


So now am more lost than i even started.

A-over speed protoction 
am tring to copy the work of (midwoud1) but i cannot find detailed drawings)
or i just do an active yaw system which will also save me the headache of the  slipring?


B-gear box  :-\    .

C-Tourqe limiter : this is just black magic for me right now.

other than that i can manage for now.





assumption is the mother all failure .

To Alcohol! The cause of... and solution to... all of life's problems.

Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!

Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of people know that.

super64

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2017, 03:16:32 AM »
Hi Super64,

This link takes you direct to the Hugh Piggott buy book …… http://scoraigwind.co.uk/all-of-the-books-by-hugh-how-to-get-them/

Yes I did do a wind turbine build diary, but it was on this European Site…… http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17156.0     I got kicked of that Forum.

Since then I have now built the 6kW OzInverter , 48vdc to Pure sine wave 230vac. Thanks to ‘Oztules’, on here, a Brainy guy and puts his words into action, and others here have helped, thanks guys!.

We make everything, the toroid, control board, power board, cooling board etc, a very hardy and very very cost effective Inverter.

So good that I moved on. !

hello clockman .

i did pucrshaed hugh books they are amazing the only down side i found is that they are all based on PMG .

PMG wind turbine are great but i dont see them a very cost effictive solution for 5+ kw wind turbine.
plus as you mentioned you still need batteries and a converter its great for an off grid system.

and once your turbine is bigger than a 3m diameter you need to have some active controls over the turbine .

i will keep trying for now if i didnt succesed in the next few months i will try anther design .

update on the chinase two stroke generator  .

i set up a bench test for the generator and it looks promising its sort of a 2 pole brushless induction motor,

the good thing is the regardless of the speed it generating power, at 3000 rpm 220v 60hz 800 watt .
at 1500 rpm 110v 50 hz 400 watt  and somehow it doesnt need to be connected to anything to sync its just a motor and a capictor 
assumption is the mother all failure .

To Alcohol! The cause of... and solution to... all of life's problems.

Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!

Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of people know that.

george65

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2017, 03:48:37 AM »

I have one of those little toy generators. The mixture screw fall out and I couldn't get another one. I did manage to pick one up from the side of the road a while back and got the screw I needed.  I couldn't bear to chuck out what otherwise looked like a good Unit.  Now I have something I can do with it :0)

I have been looking for literally years to find a reasonably priced Belt Drive Gen head. Can't even find a Chinese ST type hereexcept for people selling them for more than I could buy a whole name brand gen set for.

Mary B

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2017, 04:39:54 PM »

george65

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2017, 05:15:37 PM »

Not to Australia it appears and a 120V, 60Hz unit isn't going to be much good to me.
Our single phase power is the same Voltage as your 3 phase. Our 3 phase starts at 415v and goes up from there.

I wonder why the US went with a low voltage instead of a Higher one? 
From what I understand, 110V will still kill you.

super64

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2017, 05:46:41 PM »

I have one of those little toy generators. The mixture screw fall out and I couldn't get another one. I did manage to pick one up from the side of the road a while back and got the screw I needed.  I couldn't bear to chuck out what otherwise looked like a good Unit.  Now I have something I can do with it :0)

I have been looking for literally years to find a reasonably priced Belt Drive Gen head. Can't even find a Chinese ST type hereexcept for people selling them for more than I could buy a whole name brand gen set for.

hello george.

You can get the whole carb less than 15usd shipped thanks to china .

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carburetor-2-Stroke-Pocket-Rocket-Dirt-Pit-Bike-Carb-47cc-49cc-Mini-Quad-Chinese-/221181716888?hash=item337f752998:g:TfMAAMXQiM5RAkSf&vxp=mtr


but dont try to revive an old chinese motor .
its made from pot metal and usuly the internal parts do wear very fast (less than 300 working hours )

now for disasmmbely of the unit follow this link .

you need a rubber hammer and a bearing puller.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFVDrVqnAJM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFVDrVqnAJM


these units are great as a back up genertor or for the out doors just like a single use camera. its less than 100 usd new anyway.

just dont store any gas on them .

put some oil in the spark plug hole.

and if you use it dry it from gas and spary some wd40 inside the tank.

i think i mentoined earlier that in order to convert it for other use you need some machining .

the genertor head and the engine share the middle section
removing the engine part and using the shared engine block will do the trick

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b91HbqiNXmc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b91HbqiNXmc

i know i keep saying i will post some pictures but i keep everything over my brother house.

if you are looking for more wattage look for used robin or suburu genertors


you will find alot with bad motor and perfect alternator .

other genertors (with brushes ) uses an AVR (automatic voltage regulator )

This avr keeps the voltage/Hz regulated by deceresing the excetion field in the rotor .

but brushes need to be replaced every 300 hours or so .

again the good thing of the genertors is that they produce usable AC power with any extra devices.

they dont need an inverter and they dont need to be synced with the grid like a normal induction motor .

somehow the rotor keep some current inside and once you turn the motor the rotor charges wirelessly

hope this help if you need any more information please let me know


 
assumption is the mother all failure .

To Alcohol! The cause of... and solution to... all of life's problems.

Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!

Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of people know that.

super64

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2017, 06:21:37 PM »

Not to Australia it appears and a 120V, 60Hz unit isn't going to be much good to me.
Our single phase power is the same Voltage as your 3 phase. Our 3 phase starts at 415v and goes up from there.

I wonder why the US went with a low voltage instead of a Higher one? 
From what I understand, 110V will still kill you.

am not in the US anymore but where i live it hot so my house have over 8 AC units so my house wiring is a 3 phase i think 720volt each phase goes to a sperate circuit one phase for the ac units one for the lighting and one for power sockets.

back to you i dont think your socket is 415 volt becuasue no appliances other there work on that voltafe
it says that austrlia is 220
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g255055-c120179/Australia:Power.And.Appliances.html

anyway dont worry to much fron the voltage and frequancy .

most appliances today have a self regulated self voltage switching AC to DC power supply .

trust me i used to do alot of camping for long periods of time .

and my camping is kinda of moving the house to the outdoors  ;D

TV, Fridge ,chest frezzer , blender, Microwave you name it.

and the best generators out there dont give a pure electricty once something turn on the voltage ,freq drops alot and its was all working fine .

the only thing that dont like dirty electricy are flourcent light and led thats about it



assumption is the mother all failure .

To Alcohol! The cause of... and solution to... all of life's problems.

Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!

Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of people know that.

joestue

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Re: the safeiest diy wind turbine
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2017, 06:25:37 PM »
george if you can find an induction motor you can make a synchronous generator from it. add slip rings and buy a 16$ three phase ac generator regulator off ebay.

I don't think it would take but half an hour with a real milling machine, to mount the rotor on V blocks and machine two slots or 4 slots in the rotor. the location of the slots is not critical and you can either skew them 3 degrees or you can make them all a different width to help with cogging. a dovetail cutter or single point thread mill can be used to cut a slot in the edge of the tooth so you can hammer a piece of fiberglass (you could use a piece of scrap circuit board material) to restrain the coils.