Author Topic: Big gets Bigger  (Read 3356 times)

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tanner0441

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Big gets Bigger
« on: May 22, 2017, 02:29:19 PM »
Hi

Just checking my emails and on AOL and it seems just offshore in Liverpool Bay are 32 of the largest wind turbines in the world. 8 Megga Watts each, apparently one revolution produces enough power to run 25 homes. 650 ft high with blades nearly 300 ft long. that puts the blade tips as they pass TDC at nearly 1000 ft above the sea level in which they are planted....

That is only about 50 or 60 miles up the road from here may just take a ride and see what they look like from the shore.


Brian.


mab

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Re: Big gets Bigger
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2017, 04:14:59 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/17/mersey-wind-turbines-liverpool-uk-wind-technology

burbo bank extension. Nice to see. If only the gov't would stop throwing our money at the Hinkley point nuclear money-pit and put it into more like this; or storage tech.

tanner0441

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Re: Big gets Bigger
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2017, 06:23:54 PM »
Hi

I agree I was reading the other day of a storage system suitable for wind or solar, a massive battery bank in a building like a big barn. the locals were up in arms because they had heard anything producing that much power would be very noisy.

I see your in Wales I'm in Denbigh where are you?

Brian.

joestue

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Re: Big gets Bigger
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2017, 01:24:14 PM »
you can build big cement spheres under water, pump the water out, then let it flow back in through turbines.

i ran some numbers.. it should only take hundreds of "cycles" to "pay" for the C02 that came out of the limestone turned into cement.


anyhow there is some stuff written about 10 meter thick spheres 100 meters in diameter, about 700 meters under water. i suppose the thickness, diameter, depth, are all relative and scaling up or down is only a small detail. anyhow the idea is interesting if it doesn't require anything too expensive.

but, pumps and salt water (you could use fresh water, store it on land) could make for an interesting project.
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mab

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Re: Big gets Bigger
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2017, 03:16:22 PM »
Quote
I see your in Wales I'm in Denbigh where are you?

way down south - Carmarthen.

700m down - that's quite a depth for working - and they may have to go quite a ways from the UK mainland to find water that deep.

electrondady1

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Re: Big gets Bigger
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2017, 07:51:07 AM »
the turbine being surrounded by salt water, an electrolytic cell could be powered directly by the windmill . a plastic tube could direct the gasses to a shore station were the hydrogen could be fed into the natural gas grid.

 

kitestrings

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Re: Big gets Bigger
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2017, 12:11:31 PM »
Quote
you can build big cement spheres under water, pump the water out, then let it flow back in through turbines.

I haven't heard or seen this technology.  Clearly I'm missing something but wouldn't it take as much energy (plus losses) to pump the water out as what you get back, or is it an just leveraging off-peak pumping with more valuable power at production?

~ks

joestue

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Re: Big gets Bigger
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2017, 12:47:02 PM »
I haven't heard or seen this technology.  Clearly I'm missing something but wouldn't it take as much energy (plus losses) to pump the water out as what you get back, or is it an just leveraging off-peak pumping with more valuable power at production?

~ks

i don't think its past the think tank stage. yes, of course. its a battery. you get less out than you put in.
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richhagen

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Re: Big gets Bigger
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2017, 05:39:36 PM »
I heard of a similar scheme to store energy by using flexible bladders underwater that would be pumped full of air compressed to the pressure of the water at that depth.  I am not sure of the efficiency of the energy recovery though as air varies quite a bit from an ideal gas.  If you had a stored heat source to heat the air before decompressing it, I would think that would help the efficiency.  It takes space and infrastructure, but pumped hydro seems reliable over the long haul and the round trip efficiency is not that horrible.  If the UK wants to expand the inputs from intermittent sources much further they will need more highly reliable and economical energy storage systems, and in rather significant capacity.  Energy storage is likely the biggest obstacle at present, solving that will change the World for the better.  Rich
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Mary B

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Re: Big gets Bigger
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2017, 07:35:08 PM »
Hydrogen is very difficult to transport, standard gas pipes would leak it horribly plus the hydrogen would eventually cause the steel to become brittle.

the turbine being surrounded by salt water, an electrolytic cell could be powered directly by the windmill . a plastic tube could direct the gasses to a shore station were the hydrogen could be fed into the natural gas grid.

george65

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Re: Big gets Bigger
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2017, 08:49:13 PM »

As stupid and laughable as it sounds, I always have this Vision in my head of one day " Aliens" for want of a better term, arriving and looking at our " advanced" technology and laughing their heads off.
I'm sure in the future however far off we will find very simple and straightforward answers to a lot of problems like this once we understand things ( science) a lot better.

If you look at what we did 100 years ago, there are so many things we do much simpler now because we better understand the principals and factors at work and use them.
I'll guarantee, in another 100 years, the solution to our power needs won't be solar or nuke or renewables or anything else as well understand and visualise it now. It will be a whole different thing over all and not something anyone is proposing or envisioning now.

My bet on the energy source we do adopt as the next thing from current ( inadequate) technology's will be nothing new at all.  When there is no more money left in oil ( which will be the ONLY reason we abandon it)  Big Biz will magically  " Discover" some patent or invention that Farmer brown of Wherethefukarewe,  obscure place somewhere filed in 1923 that was dismissed/ ignored/ buried/ whatever and could have worked all along.


tanner0441

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Re: Big gets Bigger
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2017, 08:23:12 AM »
Hi

Pity no one has found a way of tapping into the limitless source of super heated hot air from the worlds politicians.

Brian

electrondady1

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Re: Big gets Bigger
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2017, 08:33:52 AM »
anaerobic bacteria can convert politicians into methane gas. that's right, your can run your car and heat your home using their rotting carcasses ;)

DamonHD

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Re: Big gets Bigger
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2017, 11:48:26 AM »
Hydrogen is very difficult to transport, standard gas pipes would leak it horribly plus the hydrogen would eventually cause the steel to become brittle.

the turbine being surrounded by salt water, an electrolytic cell could be powered directly by the windmill . a plastic tube could direct the gasses to a shore station were the hydrogen could be fed into the natural gas grid.

Mary, my instincts are the same as yours, but the other day at this event:

http://www.earth.org.uk/note-on-edie-Live-Utility-Week-Live-2017.html

I was talking to the guy who heads up the utilities' trade association and he pointed out that in the days of 'town gas' it was something like 50% hydrogen, so we could probably put quite a bit more in than we currently have without breaking anything.  Plus I think that the H2 content varies significantly by region also.

Rgds

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richhagen

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Re: Big gets Bigger
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2017, 12:38:04 PM »
I think where I am at accepted standards would allow up to a few percent hydrogen, and I recall reading that seals and orifice sizes begin having effects on the performance of appliances bringing some outside of tolerances at around 17% hydrogen.   I don't recall the original source of that information though.  Likely a minor design change or orifice retrofit would allow for a much higher hydrogen content.   Brittleness caused by hydrogen penetrating steels is another issue, probably not so big in a low pressure home plumbing system, but for utility storage at high pressure this may be a larger issue if steel pressure vessels are currently used and thus impacted over time.  Also using mains gas for liquefaction of natural gas would be impacted if the percentage of hydrogen were much higher. Hydrogen would not liquefy in most liquefaction units because of its much lower boiling point.  I am not sure what concentration would cause issues for existing units where the vapor fractions that would not condense would be too large.  In the energy to methane scheme, these issues would be avoided altogether, but you need a ready source of concentrated carbon dioxide to make that work so there may be practical limits to its expansion unless we build out systems to recapture  and recycle the carbon dioxide from power plants when it is burned.
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joestue

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Re: Big gets Bigger
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2017, 07:07:50 PM »
I heard of a similar scheme to store energy by using flexible bladders underwater that would be pumped full of air compressed to the pressure of the water at that depth.  I am not sure of the efficiency of the energy recovery though as air varies quite a bit from an ideal gas.  If you had a stored heat source to heat the air before decompressing it, I would think that would help the efficiency.  It takes space and infrastructure, but pumped hydro seems reliable over the long haul and the round trip efficiency is not that horrible.  If the UK wants to expand the inputs from intermittent sources much further they will need more highly reliable and economical energy storage systems, and in rather significant capacity.  Energy storage is likely the biggest obstacle at present, solving that will change the World for the better.  Rich

i have yet to hear about a compressed energy storage method involving air, or any other non phase change gas that can get better than about 70% efficiency. and that requires several stages, external heating (or cooling) between each cycle.

pumping water in and out of a hole in the ground (ocean) is as good as any other pumped hydro storage. 80% round trip efficiency is readily achievable.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.