Author Topic: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel  (Read 2644 times)

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bmannz

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Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2017, 03:52:22 AM »
Haha, yeah I think your right Matt!

Update to the above, the gears are 94:9, so near enough to 10:1

If my wheel is at 6rpm, the rotor should be at around 60rpm
Why do I read 18hz Phase to star point?

My phase to phase voltage is 30v ac if that's a clue?
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

Mary B

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Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2017, 05:09:55 PM »
if you have 3 phase don't the phases add? so you would have 54 rpm?

bmannz

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Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2017, 01:59:07 AM »
Hi Mary, in NZ we are 3phase 50 Hz and the frequency is the same on all three phases (the Turbines at Benmore dam have one shaft, produce 3 phases and are spinning 50x per second. So AFAIK no they don't add BUT this is my first time with a polyphase system over three phases so wouldn't put money on it!
 
I am guessing that if I have a 46 coil system and one magnet that's 46phases but given there are lots of magnets I really don't know how these work just yet.

Looking into getting a sprocket custom made with 200+ teeth to get me into the 90RPM zone, hopefully that will help crank out some more watts....
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

Mary B

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Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2017, 04:20:35 PM »
Not the grid phase, your generator head... is it wired 3 phase or single phase?

frackers

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Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2017, 08:33:33 PM »
Talk to the F&P gurus on http://www.thebackshed.com/ to find out the best way to use the generator.

Robin Down Under (Or Are You Up Over)

bmannz

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Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2017, 01:50:19 PM »
Hi Mary, it's a 3phase factory setup right out of the box - haven't modified anything yet, I was giving the example of how grids work to explain how I'm pretty sure the phase frequencies don't add, they are the rotor speed, but like I say, there are a lot more coils and magnets in these than I'm used to in my day job so not 100% sure.

Frackers, thanks for the tip, will pop over and ask the question there :)

« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 01:54:26 PM by bmannz »
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

bmannz

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Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2017, 01:56:30 PM »
Does anyone know a good way to measure torque on a waterwheel?

Thought about putting some 1kg blocks of cheese into one of the backside paddles until it stops rotating but I don't want my cheese to get wet.
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

Mary B

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Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2017, 05:44:26 PM »
Gallon jugs of water, fill and weigh one...

bmannz

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Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2017, 04:40:28 AM »
Thanks Mary, if I tie a bucket onto a upward bound paddle and pour water into it until it counteracts the force of the water, then weight the bucket that would have to be pretty close right?

Let's say the bucket centre is 1m from the axle centre, and it took 5kg to stop the wheel turning that's 50 newton metres right?

It's been a while since school.....
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

MattM

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Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2017, 11:41:03 AM »
Newton-meter is torque metrics.  Didn't you want joules?

bmannz

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Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2017, 04:51:40 AM »
Thanks Matt, not sure what I need to go about calculating the optimum gear ratio but I have some data at last!

Hung an empty 10 litre bucket off the wheel and it took 9L of water to stop it turning, tipped it out bit by bit and got to 6kg before it would start up again.

So let's say the wheel can push 6kg at 1m out from the axle - pretty sure that's 60 newton metres

I ran into one of the chaps who designed the F&P Smartdrive on Monday night and he said they were designed to run between "agitate" and 1000 rpm, he didn't have any experience using them as generators but thought around 500rpm might be a good target speed.

I am seeing a rpm range of 6 to 10 rpm in the drain depending on the flow so to be conservative let's call it 6rpm

to get from 6 rpm to 500 that's 83x
Given my small end sprocket is 9 teeth, my big end needs to be 747 teeth
Or alternatively I need another 1:9 multiplier (intermediate / lay shaft)

Now I got a quote today for a 200 tooth sprocket for $500, I hate to think what a 747 tooth sprocket will be!

I expect a lay shaft will add a lot of loss in from bearing friction

If my wheel can turn 60 Newton metres and I have a 1:83 multiplier, that means I can't exceed 0.72 Newton metres of friction in the genny end or the wheel will stall, that's 70grams at 1m, but the F&P is say 200mm, so that's 3.5kg at 200mm

I am pretty sure the F&P friction will be less than this even under load

Does all this make sense ?
Hows my maths?
Does anyone know the rotational friction of a F&P under load ??

Any tips greatly received













Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

MattM

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Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2017, 05:29:31 AM »
Are you forgetting how much simpler a belt drive can be?

And it's much easier to unhitch a drive belt than a chain drive.

How about keep your existing chain drive and boost the RPM's with a belt drive?