Author Topic: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel  (Read 6179 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

bmannz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: nz
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2017, 03:52:22 AM »
Haha, yeah I think your right Matt!

Update to the above, the gears are 94:9, so near enough to 10:1

If my wheel is at 6rpm, the rotor should be at around 60rpm
Why do I read 18hz Phase to star point?

My phase to phase voltage is 30v ac if that's a clue?
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

Mary B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 784
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2017, 05:09:55 PM »
if you have 3 phase don't the phases add? so you would have 54 rpm?

bmannz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: nz
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2017, 01:59:07 AM »
Hi Mary, in NZ we are 3phase 50 Hz and the frequency is the same on all three phases (the Turbines at Benmore dam have one shaft, produce 3 phases and are spinning 50x per second. So AFAIK no they don't add BUT this is my first time with a polyphase system over three phases so wouldn't put money on it!
 
I am guessing that if I have a 46 coil system and one magnet that's 46phases but given there are lots of magnets I really don't know how these work just yet.

Looking into getting a sprocket custom made with 200+ teeth to get me into the 90RPM zone, hopefully that will help crank out some more watts....
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

Mary B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 784
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2017, 04:20:35 PM »
Not the grid phase, your generator head... is it wired 3 phase or single phase?

frackers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
  • Country: nz
  • Is it finished yet?
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2017, 08:33:33 PM »
Talk to the F&P gurus on http://www.thebackshed.com/ to find out the best way to use the generator.

Robin Down Under (Or Are You Up Over)

bmannz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: nz
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2017, 01:50:19 PM »
Hi Mary, it's a 3phase factory setup right out of the box - haven't modified anything yet, I was giving the example of how grids work to explain how I'm pretty sure the phase frequencies don't add, they are the rotor speed, but like I say, there are a lot more coils and magnets in these than I'm used to in my day job so not 100% sure.

Frackers, thanks for the tip, will pop over and ask the question there :)

« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 01:54:26 PM by bmannz »
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

bmannz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: nz
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2017, 01:56:30 PM »
Does anyone know a good way to measure torque on a waterwheel?

Thought about putting some 1kg blocks of cheese into one of the backside paddles until it stops rotating but I don't want my cheese to get wet.
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

Mary B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 784
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2017, 05:44:26 PM »
Gallon jugs of water, fill and weigh one...

bmannz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: nz
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2017, 04:40:28 AM »
Thanks Mary, if I tie a bucket onto a upward bound paddle and pour water into it until it counteracts the force of the water, then weight the bucket that would have to be pretty close right?

Let's say the bucket centre is 1m from the axle centre, and it took 5kg to stop the wheel turning that's 50 newton metres right?

It's been a while since school.....
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

MattM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2017, 11:41:03 AM »
Newton-meter is torque metrics.  Didn't you want joules?

bmannz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: nz
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2017, 04:51:40 AM »
Thanks Matt, not sure what I need to go about calculating the optimum gear ratio but I have some data at last!

Hung an empty 10 litre bucket off the wheel and it took 9L of water to stop it turning, tipped it out bit by bit and got to 6kg before it would start up again.

So let's say the wheel can push 6kg at 1m out from the axle - pretty sure that's 60 newton metres

I ran into one of the chaps who designed the F&P Smartdrive on Monday night and he said they were designed to run between "agitate" and 1000 rpm, he didn't have any experience using them as generators but thought around 500rpm might be a good target speed.

I am seeing a rpm range of 6 to 10 rpm in the drain depending on the flow so to be conservative let's call it 6rpm

to get from 6 rpm to 500 that's 83x
Given my small end sprocket is 9 teeth, my big end needs to be 747 teeth
Or alternatively I need another 1:9 multiplier (intermediate / lay shaft)

Now I got a quote today for a 200 tooth sprocket for $500, I hate to think what a 747 tooth sprocket will be!

I expect a lay shaft will add a lot of loss in from bearing friction

If my wheel can turn 60 Newton metres and I have a 1:83 multiplier, that means I can't exceed 0.72 Newton metres of friction in the genny end or the wheel will stall, that's 70grams at 1m, but the F&P is say 200mm, so that's 3.5kg at 200mm

I am pretty sure the F&P friction will be less than this even under load

Does all this make sense ?
Hows my maths?
Does anyone know the rotational friction of a F&P under load ??

Any tips greatly received













Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

MattM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2017, 05:29:31 AM »
Are you forgetting how much simpler a belt drive can be?

And it's much easier to unhitch a drive belt than a chain drive.

How about keep your existing chain drive and boost the RPM's with a belt drive?

bmannz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: nz
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2017, 03:42:56 AM »
Hi Matt, thanks for the suggestion, much appreciated.

I played around with vee belts and pulleys as a kid and always suffered from slippage & also read a few threads here saying what a pain they were, especially around side loading the F&P shaft.

If I was more mechanical I would probably be good with screw tensioners etc but decided given my poor skills in that direction I'd go the chain route where it has turned out that tension issues at these rpms are a pleasantly dim memory

A friend Mark has reminded me of a local water jet cutting outfit who made large parts in stainless for an earlier Americas cup challenge boat so have pinged them an email this avo.
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

frackers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
  • Country: nz
  • Is it finished yet?
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2017, 05:58:08 AM »
I found this approach http://gilks.ath.cx/gallery3/Nuts/IMG_3469 worked for me - in this case a motor driving a large drum but the 'pinch' works very well even in the wet and is about 40 times cheaper than a toothed belt ($12 rather than $400).
Robin Down Under (Or Are You Up Over)

bmannz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: nz
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2017, 02:30:34 PM »
Thanks Robin, great idea!

I had thought about welding something for the chain to bite into around the big outer hoop but a big rubber band will be a lot easier to handle - looks like a treadmill drive belt - any idea where to get them?
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

bmannz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: nz
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2017, 02:45:30 PM »
Maths update: it's not 3.5kg at 200mm, it's 350g at 200mm, Mrs Taylorson would be horrified.

RPM update: it turns out I count too slow, so my actual RPM range is 1.7RPM to 6.5RPM over the past 2 weeks.

I have been pulling rainfall data from our national weather service "NIWA", and logging rainfall against RPM, the wheels going to get a lot slower over the coming months, there is going to be a LOT of variance in RPM and power, I see my options as:

1) huge big end sprocket (simple but may come with huge cost)
2) lay shaft (intermediate sprocket) (friction loss, but adjustable summer to winter)
3) robins big rubber band (will need to weld a plate to the big hoop)
4) gearbox (bicycle or motorbike perhaps, likely big friction loss, but easy summer winter adjustment)

time for some research on Trademe (ebay)

Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

frackers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
  • Country: nz
  • Is it finished yet?
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2017, 06:02:46 PM »
Thanks Robin, great idea!

I had thought about welding something for the chain to bite into around the big outer hoop but a big rubber band will be a lot easier to handle - looks like a treadmill drive belt - any idea where to get them?

It's a cheap vee belt (from Blackwoods) with a vee belt pulley on the motor running on the flat band on the drum.
Robin Down Under (Or Are You Up Over)

bmannz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: nz
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2017, 01:44:19 PM »
So it is, didn't zoom in enough - clever tensioner design (tensioners have always been my downfall with vee belts) is that curtain net wire ?
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

bmannz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: nz
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2017, 12:52:43 PM »
I now have a months RPM data and the average is 5 rpm in the rainy season, I have seen up to 12 rpm, oddly the higher the flow the lower the speed as the buckets get stuck underwater in this run of river design. I could reduce the amount of bucket, so really just have the leading edge (more like a banki / cross flow) and increase the bucket count, and / or shift the wheel to a place with fall to fix this.

Sorry about the terrible pic, red is rainfall in mm, blue is wheel rpm

10772-0

Anyway back to the gearing issue, I went to the laser cut man yesterday and asked how much for a 1500 tooth sprocket so I can direct drive my 9 tooth and achieve 166x ratio on my estimated low flow average of 3 rpm to get 500 rpm on the smart drive, no problems he said, that sprocket will be 4 metres across!!

Ok I say, let's assume I want a 1 meter diameter sprocket, how many teeth and how much is that? The rough price estimate was $250 which I thought was pretty good, however the tooth count was down around 450 which is a 50x ratio, less that the 100x a lay shaft will give me so it's back to Randall at Edgell automotive for some more go-kart parts.

I collected some 25mm pillow block bearings, and a length of 25mm mild steel shaft and dropped them into the workshop in amongst some racing cars in pieces having their engines rebuilt, randalls going to turn the shaft on his lathe to fit the small bearing and all going well I'll be installing this weekend...







« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 01:07:00 PM by bmannz »
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

MattM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2017, 07:23:42 AM »
You would need a planetary gear system to keep the gears small.  Is that what the lay shaft is, a planetary gear?

bmannz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: nz
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2017, 01:15:11 PM »
Hi Matt, it's an intermediate shaft placed between the waterwheel axle shaft and the Fisher and Paykel generator shaft with a big and small sprocket on it.

At the moment I have a big tooth count on the waterwheel shaft and a small tooth count on the generator, 89:9 (10x speed increase) I'm going to add another shaft in between the two so the 89 teeth on the wheel will drive the 9 teeth on the intermediate shaft which is also turning another 89 tooth sprocket which drives the 9 tooth on the generator

So 5rpm in the creek will give me 50 rpm on the intermediate shaft which will produce 500 rpm on the generator (or so the theory goes)

Will be chucking it on today so will post a pic when it's done
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

george65

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
  • Country: au
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2017, 02:23:19 AM »
So 5rpm in the creek will give me 50 rpm on the intermediate shaft which will produce 500 rpm on the generator (or so the theory goes)


This would be 100:1 speed increase.  Sounds like it is going to need a LOT of Torque to just to overcome the gearing drag let alone power anything on the final output.
I was putting together a Post hole Differ this afternoon that has a 40:1 Reduction gearbox on it. Just twisting the output shaft to make the input side spin up, Even with a Screwdriver as a lever took a lot of effort.  I think for 100:1 gear up, you'd want to be using serious shafts and gears because even if you do have the torque, once a resistance is applied at the other end, the forces on the Primary drive components are going to be Huge.
Going to be 100X speed magnification and even more Torque multiplication.

It would seem to me that there is only so much driving power anyway and the the least path of resistance will simply be around the waterwheel rather than through it.
I played around with F&P motors a while back and I would say they are a pretty  " savage" sort of a generator. They don't need much speed as they come out of a washer to generate high voltage (gave a few friends some good belts after I did it to myself and realised how ppowerful they were) but the torque is going to be reasonable to get any power out of them. Even spinning them with no load creates some reasonable drag, maybe just from the fields energizing. 

I have nothing but mucking around and gut feeling to go on but I would think that given the power I imagne you have from the stream, you would probably be OK at 100 RPM on one of those motors to make power which would be at least a couple of hundred volts and then pull it down to what you want ( if it's for battery charging ) from there. If you want AC, My gut feeling is you are not going to get much more than to light up an  LED globe, If that.

Not trying to put you off, more like noting my predictions to see how far wrong I am when you get the thing working. :0)
That said, 100:1 gear up still sounds like a lot of parasitic drag to me.

MattM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2017, 10:16:31 AM »
Just a rough guess, but he will probably pull a steady 300-350rpm.  He can hand start it, because once it starts spinning - the water isn't sporadic like wind - it will sustain.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 10:22:48 AM by MattM »

bmannz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: nz
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2017, 01:06:18 PM »
DISASTER

George was right, 100:1 looked great on paper but the wheel only turned sporadically :(

The happy news is that with the setup as it is, I can simply swap my four sprockets to find a combination of ratios that do work

I know 10:1 makes too little power
I know 106:1 stalls the wheel

Think I will try for 25, 50 and 75 and see how they go

One thing has become obvious, in high flows a lot of the power is wasted so thinking about moving the wheel down the drain a bit and out of the main flow, piping to it to turn it into a breastshot to make use of the buckets and keep the downstream side of the buckets from creating drag.

Now to find a large quantity of cheap or free pipe around 500mm...
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI

MattM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2017, 11:52:34 PM »
Your power is going to be relative to velocity over time.  Dropping (vertically moving) water is obviously moving faster than horizontal flowing water.  But ultimately, if your generator is too big for your flow then it won't matter either way.  Would a dam be potentially an option?  Adding 24" of drop or more to the water could pay off dividends.

george65

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
  • Country: au
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2017, 12:17:26 AM »

George was right, 100:1 looked great on paper but the wheel only turned sporadically :(

Was that with the generator hooked up or just the wheel turning an empty output shaft?

Go for the even money first and try 50:1. Still a lot of gearing but if the wheel moved at all at 100, 50 will tell you which if any way to go from there.

bmannz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: nz
Re: Smart Drive Oil Barrel Undershot Waterwheel
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2017, 01:09:49 PM »
Cheers for the feedback guys,

Matt, I'm trying to avoid a dam if possible for four reasons:

1) this drains the neighbours farm and he's already told me he would like to lower it one day to get more usable farmland back (reduce the 5 hectare lake he has in winter)

2) letting aquaculture (eels in particular) migrate

3) avoided grief with the council

4) the flow can be enormous (47 cubic metres per sec) so high risk of destruction

I am thinking a very low weir (300mm) higher up and long run (300m) of large bore (300-500) mm pipe - just have to find the pipe!

George, that sporadic turning was under load, with it freewheeling the rpm is approx 75% faster than with the 10:1 and generator

I collected a bucket of sprockets yesterday so will pop them in this weekend and let you all know how I get along.

I think how this is going to play out is the wheel will stay here making only a fraction of the power it could until I can get the weir and pipe setup in place
Fully off grid thanks to 2.1kw of Jinko panels into 6KW of Outback FP2 and 1.5kw Wind Turbine on 8m tower all into 390AH of Synergy AGM batteries with a MATE3 HMI