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engine coolant as heat


By Homebrewed12vdc, Section Remote Living
Posted on Fri Oct 10, 2003 at 11:19:48 AM MST
engine coolant as heat

I have thinking about taking the heaters out of old school buses and hooking them up to a diesal engine I use to charge my batteries. My thought is if I run a 210 theromastat on these heaters, then put in a thermostat that well control the the fans in these heaters I could heat my house with them as my diesal runs charging my battery bank. I usaully run the diesal for about 8 hours at a time to charge my bank, has anybody ever tried this? I was wondering if there was any advice on it, plus I was thinking that maybe I could incorporate a water heater solar panel into this that mite help keep the coolant warm and make for easier starting of the diesal in the winter. Any help on this is appreciated. Thanks.
engine coolant as heat | 17 comments (17 topical)

Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#1)
by kww on Fri Oct 10, 2003 at 01:48:18 PM MST

That would work, but it'd be easier(I think) to just take the radiator off your engine/generator setup and put it in the house.  You'd have to build a simple box around the radiator and mount a big $10-15 box fan or sufficient blower.  Not to mention the supply and return lines.  I'd use hot water pvc, if it can handle that much heat.  I've done this before, but I used garden hose because it screwed right onto the submersible pump for pumping 58F very shallow well water.  On a hot day I could cut this setup on and get a 12F drop in the air coming out, which dropped my kitchen about 7F in 30 min. :-).  You'd have a much bigger temp. difference, It'd put out LOTS of heat.  For a control "system" one of those vehicle electric cooling fans mounted on the radiator(you could skip building a box with this) would automatically work when needed.  Anyway, like they say around here, have fun. :-)
Kevin



Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#2)
by JB on Fri Oct 10, 2003 at 03:15:45 PM MST

Those school bus heaters are really neat. They usually have 2 or 3 12 volt electric fans on them. Id put a switch on them  like a electric fan switch off a car and If your engine has small heater fittings like a car plumb them to them. The bus heaters I played with take 1 inch hose. I have one in my toyota powered  VWBaja bug and one on my datsun  210 trike and 2 more that are getting plumbed into my workshop. Do You got any spares? Have fun. JB

[ Parent ]


Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#4)
by Homebrewed12vdc on Fri Oct 10, 2003 at 03:47:08 PM MST

As far as spares go how many do you want, my best friend owns a junkyard, drop me a line at bearfalconer@hotmail.com.

[ Parent ]


Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#3)
by JW on Fri Oct 10, 2003 at 03:17:46 PM MST

12v,

 I am a ASE certified master tech. I dont see any reason you couldent do this. but I would suggest more than one radiator, that's the same size as the original, which is capable of cooling the engine alone. in other words if you use two radiators one flowing into the other, circulated by the water pump on the engine, it will just lower the operating temp. This will not be detrimental to the engine. even if one radiator is on the engine(leave the original in place) with its mechanical fan. then plumb the other out to your point of use. in fact by altering flow thru the second radiator you can control heat output like a thermostat. when you,ve got enough heating, just shut of the flow circulation to the second radiator and the first (original radiator will just do its thing). a fan blowing thru the second radiator to heat air where you want it will need additional stratigy.

 Once upon a time I used to biuld race cars. it was common practice to completly remove the thermostat at the water pump 'neck" or place where the hose to the radiator connects. In your application I would leave the thermostat there. I onced asked a world class race engine builder (Ron Crawford) Hey what happens to my engine when I take out the thermostat. he seid do you have a plate in there with a hole to let some coolant thru? or did you take it completly out?- I said "no" I took it out completly. He kind of held his chin and replyied- Well gas engines make more horsepower and torque if you can run them cold, like around 130*f or so. But the engine will wear out(bearings, rings, etc) about 35% faster. Hot on the otherhand, no more than 240*f the engine just lasts and holds up longer. but in all honesty(his reply) the horse power gain is almost negligable.

 Interesting you mention using a solar water heater in the coolant circuit. this is commonly done on Gen-sets (diesel) to promote easier starting. I belive its called "heat tracing" meaning strip or wire heating elements rapped around various pipes."But" to succesfully do this an auqxilary circulation pump must be used, thats always on as long as the heating elements are on.

 It may take some work, be carfull about doing this and leaving the factory engine thermostat intact on your diesel engine. the system should work fine with it in place if its designed properly. nobody ever said "homebrewed" was easy. besides the thermostat opens when the engine really needs to dump extra heat, until then its a bad idea to take heat from the engine, by diverting cooling thru an additional radiator.
-JW

 

[ Parent ]



Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#5)
by gps on Fri Oct 10, 2003 at 04:35:54 PM MST

Run a google or library search on 'cogeneration'



Lots of questions? (none / 0) (#6)
by wdyasq on Fri Oct 10, 2003 at 06:51:45 PM MST

While the idea is sound in theory, questions have already been asked about what temperature do you want to run the engine?  I would recommend using a theromostat to keep the engine at its' normal operating temperature, opening to go to the -bus heaters- (damn this no quotes in a reply), and another opening say 10-15 degrees higher going to a system when you did not need the heat and it would exhaust outside.

If you are running a small diesel, you may not benifit much from the process.  But any heat you do get is at little or no cost.  I have thought long about a  - heatpump- (comment about quotes repeated) that would use the reject heat of the internal combustion engine driving it as a source for the heat to put in a house or business.

Try it and see.... GOOD LUCK - and tell us how it works out.

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen



Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#7)
by kww on Fri Oct 10, 2003 at 08:58:26 PM MST

If you put a copper coil around a long exhaust pipe on that engine I bet you could get even more heat than from the coolant.  Just an idea.
Kevin



Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#8)
by Homebrewed12vdc on Sat Oct 11, 2003 at 08:18:32 AM MST

Thanks for the idea Kevin, I well take a temp reaidng on the exhuast and see if it is running considerably hotter than 210Degrees.

[ Parent ]


Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#15)
by jubalearly on Wed Oct 15, 2003 at 10:05:21 AM MST

       They make exhausts for boat engines with a water jacket (twin tube pipe) for this purpose. IIRC, there is one that can hook directly to your heads or headers in various sizes. Rule of thumb is about 1/3 of fuel energy goes to heating the exhaust, 1/3 to radiator, with most of the remaining third producing power and going out as heat from every where else (engine block, oil, etc.). You could weld up such a tube easily enough from two different sizes of exhaust pipe.

[ Parent ]


Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#9)
by kww on Sat Oct 11, 2003 at 11:10:36 AM MST

It'll probably be somewhere around 1200F, a little warmer. :-)
Kevin



Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#10)
by Homebrewed12vdc on Sat Oct 11, 2003 at 11:34:25 AM MST

Your not far off Kevin, I checked it after it had been running for a hour, the temp was 937 degrees f., I am going to try your suggestion, it mite owrk.

[ Parent ]


Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#11)
by kww on Sat Oct 11, 2003 at 12:09:38 PM MST

I guess gasoline engines run hotter exhaust then, especially older rotarys(around 2000F), which I'm most familiar with.  Anyway, be careful with that, the heat could and would burst a pipe if the coolent were to stop flowing while the engine was running.  Some sort of guard would be a good thing, not to mention insulation around the outside to better trap the heat around the coolent pipe coil.
Kevin

[ Parent ]


Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#12)
by Old F on Sun Oct 12, 2003 at 07:28:21 AM MST

Here is some thing that should work for a an exhaust to water heat exchanger.
  Use a  gas hot water heater tank with out the burner just plum the exhaust to go
up the flue. I use one as a water to water heat exchanger with my wood fired boiler.
By capping off the flue and running water thru it.

Old F

   

[ Parent ]



Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#16)
by Homebrewed12vdc on Wed Oct 15, 2003 at 12:21:26 PM MST

Word of advice, make sure you add a pressure relief valve to the pipe.

[ Parent ]


Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#13)
by 12volt dan on Mon Oct 13, 2003 at 06:48:18 AM MST

Hi guys

 I'm a school buss mechanic and am doing that same set-up but insted of useing the bus heaters as heaters only I intend to run them as collecters also (run the exhaust through them)

  This will be my main heat for the house (about 2500 sq ft) and the bonus is the power (12v) to charge the batt bank. Besides I need a primay heat source for insurance purposes and they like it because it's 50 ft away from the house

 I've designed an auto start with a couple of safties to run the diesel off a thermostatt and am housing it in a cordwood building. The heat stored in the building should keep the engine warm enough to eliminate the block heater (it gets to 40 below too often here)

 An interesting note
 The school bus makers have recently designed a exhaust heat exchanger for school buses since the new diesels don't make enough heat to keep them warm on the really cold days. Looks remarkably like the picture in this thread
11 years off the grid and counting



Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#14)
by JW on Mon Oct 13, 2003 at 08:42:17 AM MST

WOW GUYS!!!

 What a great suggestion about capturing the waste heat from the exhaust stream of the engine. This is probably to most simple, and least problematic way to get waste heat from any engine, or more specifically a diesel running on Bio-Diesel.

 From what I was taught, the energy that goes into any engine (this is just a rough example)is one third of the energy that you burn actually gets you down the road, the next third of energy is used by the radiator to keep the metalurgy of the engine happy (correct coeificient of metal expansion for proper parts fit("ie" piston to cyl fit, valve train ,etc- incidently you do have to waste some heat to accomplish this) And the last third of the energy thats burned from the fuel goes strait out the exhaust pipe (or exhaust stream, meaning manifolds, pipes, etc.) excellent suggestion to tap this waste energy suppy, no modifications to the engine are nessiary, and you will get your heat up much faster. Also there is a chance that cooling the exhaust could marginally increase engine performance -due to lower presssures in the exhaust stream "ie" less back pressure, the same type of effect headers would give you for a performance car.

 By the way the idea of rapping copper pipe on the exaust is a sound one, and who ever remarked about a over pressure control on this system is thinking ahead. or a safety valve, Mc Master Carr sells a great veriety of these, all are code compliant, Id recomend one with a set psi of 15psi, possibly with a lift check feature. In this case I would recomend brazing, silver soldering, or even tin/lead soldering the wrapped copper tube to the steel pipe the exhaust is flowing thru.

 Finally when you cool the exhaust you are going to produce water from condensation on the inside of your exhaust pipe. most people do not realize that perfect combustion burn "ie" stichomitry(?) or 14.7 to 1 yeilds only water (h20) and carbondioxide (co2). like when you start your car first thing in the morning, water droplets fall from the exhaust. this is water being produced from the combustion of the engine. the only reason you see it, is because the exhaust system has not warmed up yet, and for this short time it is capable of condensing the water(h20) preasent in the exhaust stream.

 so if you attempt this cooling of the exhaust(or using it for waste heat production) be pepared to deal with alot of water comming from the exhaust stream, normally you wouldent notice it, as its ussually steam , but in this case its going to collect somewhere. be ready for it, because its not a leak in your water coil.

 -JW

[ Parent ]



Re: engine coolant as heat (none / 0) (#17)
by charged on Sat Nov 15, 2003 at 09:09:24 AM MST

For using exhaust heat, and controlling the condensed water from the exhaust, try using an array of copper pipes in parallel that will be submerged in your water tank.

The exhaust enters a single large copper pipe in the top of the tank. This large pipe has many smaller copper pipes coming out of one side and going down through the water.

Those smaller pipes all end at a second larger copper pipe that carries the remaining exhaust out.

It looks much like a normal radiator with two large front and back reservoirs and very thing parallel heat-exchanger tubes going in between the two.

Just make sure that the total cubic inches of space inside the smaller tubes adds up to several times the cubic footage of the larger pipe. This way, the exhaust flow in each tube will be much slower and will transfer heat more efficienty.

Ideally, you want to let the exhaust remain in contact with the water in the tank until they have reached an equal temperature. This is maximum heat extraction.

By the way, what you are doing here is applying basic cogeneration theory. The next step would be to build a heavy stirling engine, force ALL the conentrated heat through it and then allow the "cold" side of that engine to dump it's heat inside your house. The stirling derives it's working energy from the DIFFERENCE IN TEMPERATURE between it's hot and cold sides, not from the btu's themselves. Any heat that goes into the hot side comes out of the cold side and must be radiated away into the lower temperature space.

By the time YOU use the low temp heat for your comfort, it's in a very low-grade, high entropy state. Any time you have a high temperature differential between to areas, you have usable working energy. The trick is, figuring out how to use the change in entropy from a 200degree radiator surface and a 70degree airspace. You are allowing this high-grade heat to degrade to a lower temp anyway. Why not tap the change that's already taking place?



engine coolant as heat | 17 comments (17 topical)
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