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Transformers for lower cut in speed?


By hvirtane, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sat Oct 25th, 2003 at 01:06:40 PM MST
Can you use effectively transformers to rise the voltage?

With a project we had the problem that
the permanent magnet generator
needs a bit too high speed for the
prop to start charging batteries.
At normal low winds the prop is turning,
but the direct drive permanent magnet generator
is not charging because the
voltage is too low.

We installed there a transformer before the rectifier to double the
voltage. And also connected the generator parallel
to the transformer to go directly through a
rectifier to the batteries.

When measuring the currents, out of the transformer never comes more than 2 amperes,
because the transformer steel core cannot cope
with the high frequencies. The current directly
to the batteries rises higher and higher.

Does anybody know, if there is much current
wasted inside the transformer, after it stops
giving more than 2 amperes out?
(We cannot measure AC currents going
in the transformer.)

Another question:

We found another transformer with a ferrite core.
Does anybody know if there is any limit for this kind of transformer concerning
the frequencies it can cope with?

- Hannu

Transformers for lower cut in speed? | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Transformers for lower cut in speed? (none / 0) (#1)
by kmitchel on Sat Oct 25th, 2003 at 02:11:19 PM MST
(User Info)

Try http://members.tripod.com/~schematics/xform/xformer1.htm
Detailed info on winding your own power transformers.



Re: Transformers for lower cut in speed? (none / 0) (#3)
by bob golding (photoman290 at yahoo dot com) on Sat Oct 25th, 2003 at 04:06:52 PM MST
(User Info)

hi hannu,
all  transformers need  a certain voltage before they will work. this is called the magnetising current. basicly if you think of the electrical circuit and the magnetic circuit seperatly you will understand. below the magnetising current  the primary of the transformer is just a coil of wire not connected to the secondary  magneticly  because below the magnatising current there is no magnetic circuit to transfer the energy to the secondary. once there is enough current to magnatise the core the magnetic circuit is completed and the  current in the primary is  transfered to the secondary.transformers are pretty effiecient but as hugh points out in  wind power workshop everyone  takes there cut. in the case of transformers it is  magnetising current and  wire resistance plus eddy current losses. usually about 2 to 5 % depending on the waveform and fequency. iron  cores are good up to about 400 hz or so. this is a over simplifacation but  hope you get the idea. bit rusty so if i have got this all wrong please feel free to correct me.

bob

[ Parent ]



Re: Transformers for lower cut in speed? (none / 0) (#2)
by TomW on Sat Oct 25th, 2003 at 04:05:36 PM MST
(User Info)

Hannu;

You can measure ac current quite simply with a 1 foot piece of solid #10 gage copper wire in series with your load and an ac voltmeter that can read millivolts. Measure ac millivolts across this length of copper yields 1 millivolt ac = 1 amp of ac current through the wire.

Cheers.

TomW

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain



Re: Transformers for lower cut in speed? (none / 0) (#4)
by iFred (ifred2006@yahoo.com) on Sat Oct 25th, 2003 at 06:39:39 PM MST
(User Info)

Transformers are nearly 98 percent efficient in transferring power. Don't worry about the losses. However, in increasing your voltage you will decrease current. The reverse is also true. Increasing current will decrease voltage. It's a give and take. This is why I believe so highly in high voltage systems, which produce low loss. In any case, ferrite is good at high freqs but bad in low freqs. Most ferrite is used in apps where you want to achieve resonance (for max transfer of current) and is usually above 10 or more kHz.

To give you a rough idea of where your voltage is at present, stick a bridge rectifier with about a 100uf around 25 volts or more capacitor (after the rectifier) on the ac coming directly from your genny on each of your phases, it will cancel all the indevidual coil phases (which is why you can't read it properly now-not high freq but cancellations within coils) and give you a voltage in DC which is really close to your output voltage per phase AC. The 100uf cap will only charge to a certain limit, that being your total charging capacity. (Roughly this DC voltage is about the same as your AC voltage less rectifier loss.

Advice: Do the above DC checks to getting a clue to your true voltage. Don't change over to ferrite. Find a happy medium between charging voltage and output current from a transformer which will meet some of your specs for charging. you could also change your core and douple or thriple the coils thus voltage without changing anything else. the core is the problem, or cancellation.

I wish you good luck and hope to hear about the results.
ifred
>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!



Re: Transformers for lower cut in speed? (none / 0) (#5)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Sat Oct 25th, 2003 at 10:05:13 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

 How big are your windings on the primary and secondary of the transformer?
  or
 What are the ratings on the transformer ?

. >=- W o o f -=<


Re: Transformers for lower cut in speed? (none / 0) (#6)
by drdongle (Dr.Dongle1@juno.com) on Sun Oct 26th, 2003 at 06:55:17 AM MST
(User Info)

Also remember that a transformers power handling capacity is determined by it core size, the larger the core the higher the capacity ( watts or IxE). So basically a larger transformer will pass more energy.
It also occurs to me that part of your problems may be that the frequency of the alternator may be two low for the core to operate efficiently. The lower the frequency goes the larger the core must become to pass the same amount of energy.
IE a core that will pass 200 watts at 60 Hz will only pass 100 watts at 30 Hz.
This is why the military and avionics industry use 400 and 1600 Hz power systems they can use smaller lighter transformers.

Dr.D
Carpe Vigor, Dr.D



Re: Transformers for lower cut in speed? (none / 0) (#7)
by hvirtane (hannu_markus_virtanen(at)yahoo(dot)com) on Sun Oct 26th, 2003 at 11:10:37 AM MST
(User Info) http://web.archive.org/web/20050404022706/www.cc.jyu.fi/~hvirtane/cooker/

The transformer is a normal 1000 w rated to change
USA 110 V into European 220 V. (1:2)

The other one with a ferrite core rating is not
known to us. It transforms 1:10.

One quite high-level specialist of electricity
appliances told me that those normal transformers
cannot cope much above 100 Hz because they were
made only for 60 Hz.

Our generator is a variation of
the OP 'Volvo' generator, with 20 coils and magnets, single phase.

It means that 180 RPM makes 60 Hz,
240 RPM already 80 Hz.
So the transformer becomes
ineffective quite fast.

We might try measuring later the AC going in, one
of my friends has got such measuring device, which might be able to do the job.

We are aware that we can make quite easily a new
stator with more coil windings to get the cut-in speed lower.

---

But recently it came to my mind that
actually using a transformer might be a good idea... (Even if we started to use it because of
a mistake by my friend to use too few turns in the coils.)

If you use lots of coil windings to get the voltage high with low RPM, your generator
becomes easily ineffective with higher RPM because of the resistance of the coils.

Maybe it would be
better to use thick wires with fewer turns in coils to get it effective even going fast and use
a transformer to get it charging with slow speeds?

What do you think?

---

The new blades with the generator are a variation
of the 'Reinikainen' blades I've told about earlier. (The old ones were aluminum-polyurethane blades of about 4 m diameter.)

These Reinikainen blades are with four blades.
3 m diameter, made of flat 10 cm wide boards, glued and screwed together so that at the tips the boards are on the top of each other only 2,5 cm.
Five boards in each blade.

The new rotor works very well, it starts very easily and with lower wind speeds than the 4 m airfoil rotor and seems to go about as fast as the earlier aluminum-polyurethane airfoil rotor.

- Hannu



Re: Transformers for lower cut in speed? (none / 0) (#8)
by Victor on Sun Oct 26th, 2003 at 06:01:43 PM MST
(User Info)

Hannu,
 180 rpm with 20 poles is 30 hz, it takes a north AND a south to make one cycle.
Make the wind fun!
Victor

[ Parent ]


Re: Transformers for lower cut in speed? (none / 0) (#9)
by scoraigwind (magnet@scoraigwind.co.uk) on Mon Oct 27th, 2003 at 02:02:10 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk

Hannu said "Maybe it would be better to use thick wires with fewer turns in coils to get it effective even going fast and use a transformer to get it charging with slow speeds? "

When you use less turns you have less volts, but the potential for more amps.  With more turns you have more volts but less amps (for the same efficiency at the same speed).  Therefore it does not help the efficiency to change the number of turns, except in order to improve the matching of speed to load power.  And you can do this with your transformers.  So the number of turns in the stator does not really matter.

I have to say I do not understand why you use two transformers.  I would wind the stator to produce a high voltage and then use just one transformer.  Some may be 98% efficient, but not all.  And the frequency variations make them harder to design.

I would normally take a transformer designed for a certain voltage at 50Hz (here in UK) and run it at a voltage proportional to teh frequency.  If the voltage is meant to be 240 but frequency is only half (25Hz) then I use 120 volt maximum on that transformer at that frequency.
Hugh Piggott http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk
[ Parent ]



Re: Transformers for lower cut in speed? (none / 0) (#10)
by hvirtane (hannu_markus_virtanen(at)yahoo(dot)com) on Tue Nov 4th, 2003 at 10:13:57 AM MST
(User Info) http://web.archive.org/web/20050404022706/www.cc.jyu.fi/~hvirtane/cooker/

Hugh wrote:

---

When you use less turns you have less volts, but the potential for more amps.  With more turns you have more volts but less amps (for the same efficiency at the same speed).  Therefore it does not help the efficiency to change the number of turns, except in order to improve the matching of speed to load power.  And you can do this with your transformers.  So the number of turns in the stator does not really matter.

I have to say I do not understand why you use two transformers.  I would wind the stator to produce a high voltage and then use just one transformer.  Some may be 98% efficient, but not all.  And the frequency variations make them harder to design.

---

I agreee that we cannot get any more power with transformers, we always loose some.
I was just thinking that we would have a bit broader range of RPM, because with fewer turns
(and thicker wires) we can spin the generator
faster, before it starts overheating.

I agree that most transformers are not at all 98% efficient. My friend has used these two different
transformers (one at the time) simply because he
happened to have them. The frequency change is
one quite big problem to cope with transformers.
Finally my friend already decided to make a new stator. It is ready now.

- Hannu




Transformers for lower cut in speed? | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 editorial)
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