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24v progress and self starter idea


By Chuck, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Mon Oct 6th, 2003 at 03:00:56 PM MST
better rotor for motor/generator

I put up a two blade rotor on the 24v 194rpm motor/generator wind generator that I've been experimenting with the last few months. The two blade rotor is an 8 ft diameter nylon rotor with what looks like a wimpy cast hub. So far it's been holding together nicely and in low winds actually provides enough speed to be able to charge a 24 volt system. This is a great improvement as the 7 1/2 ft 3 blade rotor I was using required a bit more wind to start charging 24 volts. It was fine for 12 volt charging. The TSR difference is very evident and it makes a difference for my system.

With every gain there is a price to pay. This one's no different. The cost is a higher start up wind speed due to fewer, thinner blades. There is enough resistance to movement in the motor/generator that it won't start up in a wind that would produce 50 - 100 watts if it were already running. I understand this is a common problem high TSR blades (like the air series of mini-turbines).

So... the question arrises if anyone has played with the idea of an electronic self starter. Coupled to an analog anemometer that produces a small voltage, it seems that it should be simple to couple that with a relay that bypasses the diode at a given voltage IF there is no voltage sensed on the wind genny side of the diode. Once the generator spins up past a certain speed (producing a certain voltage, say 10 volts ?) the relay opens again and the rotor either spins up with the wind or slows to a stop, waiting for the anemometer to send it another surge when the wind gusts again.

I don't know enough about the electronic components to design this from scratch, but it seems like it should be fairly straight forward. Any hints or further insights on this ?

Chuck

24v progress and self starter idea | 8 comments (8 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: 24v progress and self starter idea (none / 0) (#1)
by drdongle (Dr.Dongle1@juno.com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2003 at 04:27:19 PM MST
(User Info)

The idea of the turbine "motoring up to speed" has merit, I understand some of the large commercial units do this. you would have to have some "intelligence" in the system so as to avoid it starting up for a short gusts and recognizing when the amount of wind present was enough for proper operation.

Dr.D
Carpe Vigor, Dr.D



Re: 24v progress and self starter idea (none / 0) (#2)
by sean on Mon Oct 6th, 2003 at 04:52:19 PM MST
(User Info) http://homepage.ntlworld.com/s.amesbury/homepage.htm

I aslo hear that the big gennys used on wind farms are started with motors and once spinning they have such a fly wheel effect that carry on spinning even with a sneaze. But incorpate an automated system on a system like yours might work or might not. The power to start it up would have to be less than the power it can produce once started or it simply isnt going to be worth it. The idea is there if its worth it............sean

[ Parent ]


Re: 24v progress and self starter idea (none / 0) (#3)
by Chuck on Mon Oct 6th, 2003 at 05:46:02 PM MST
(User Info) http://home.morrisonprairie.com

I really don't mind if it spins back down after a gust. I've been doing this by hand and figure it's really a matter of setting the "power up" wind speed properly and the voltage at which it ceases to "power up". At no time should the "power up" phase last more than 2 seconds and if the wind doesn't keep it spinning after that, well it takes 30 seconds or so to slow below X volts at which time it's able to hit it again if a gust happens along.

The logic to this is simple and I'm not sure requires a logic circuit. Simply put...

when wind speed > 10mph (voltage from anemometer exceeds some limit) AND Gen Volts = 0 then power up occurs

In all other situations nothing happens. Once the generator voltage exceeds 0 (a second or so) the power drain stops. The momentum of the blade should be all it takes to either catch the wind and spin for a while (long enough to justify the power loss of startup hopefully) or will spin down to await the next gust. It would certainly be fun seeing if it could increase the low wind performance of small wind gennies at minimal cost.

Chuck


[ Parent ]



Re: 24v progress and self starter idea (none / 0) (#4)
by Norm (peppysue@suite224.net) on Mon Oct 6th, 2003 at 06:21:01 PM MST
(User Info)

   How about another smaller motor/generator nearby that has a lower cut in speed...it's only job to get the big one to get going and since it's hooked in parallel to it the power wouldn't be lost.I really think it would work. Norm.
( :>) Norm
[ Parent ]


Re: 24v progress and self starter idea (none / 0) (#7)
by Chuck on Tue Oct 7th, 2003 at 09:07:58 AM MST
(User Info) http://home.morrisonprairie.com

Yes, It could work. I guess the only question would be how big (and what type) of turbine would be required. Could a small vawt do the job ? It would just need enough juice to counteract the cogging and bearing friction in the motor. It would also have to be small enough to clamp onto the tower and not overbalance it. The other issue is that it needs to be simple (and cheap) to build.

In essence, the anemometer would be that smaller wind turbine. It's just that it's so small it couldn't supply enough juice to start the larger turbine and would have to rely on the battery to supply the power.

Thanks for the thoughts

Chuck

[ Parent ]



Re: 24v progress and self starter idea (none / 0) (#5)
by signweld on Mon Oct 6th, 2003 at 06:24:18 PM MST
(User Info)

Chuck, another option is a centrifical blade pitch mechenism. this operates like a Jacob type governer, only at rest being pitched steeper and then flattening out the pitch varibly as rpm increases, until normal pitch is achieved at pre selected rpm.
  Im going to change my governer this way when I put offset tail furling system on. The governer works very well as is at controlling rpm, but does nothing for tower load reduction in high winds. The offset tail system should reduce tower loading.
  Ill post pics when done.

   signweld

admin. can this board support 4 or 5 sec. vidio clips?



Re: 24v progress and self starter idea (none / 0) (#6)
by Chuck on Tue Oct 7th, 2003 at 08:55:42 AM MST
(User Info) http://home.morrisonprairie.com

Yes, it is an option but my experience has been that  making a hub to accurately pitch the blades is a pretty hairy engineering effort. Sticking some cups on a disk drive motor and wiring up a relay, a transistor, some potentiometers and a diode seems pretty simple comparatively.

I'll let everyone know how/if this works out.

Chuck

[ Parent ]



Re: 24v progress and self starter idea (none / 0) (#8)
by signweld on Wed Oct 8th, 2003 at 07:43:16 PM MST
(User Info)

Chuck, Point well taken. For those amung us who have access to a lathe, welder and drill press, a pitching hub is within our grasps. A mill with a dividing head makes this even easier. In the near future I will post my drawings of my governer if anyone is interested in making one themself, and a link to a vidio clip to see it in operation. I will also be selling completed units with varios hub bores for those without machining experiance. The size of this is well suited to a 10 foot 3 bladed rotor.

   signweld


[ Parent ]



24v progress and self starter idea | 8 comments (8 topical, 0 editorial)
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