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Sine wave inverter


By RayW, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sun Nov 2nd, 2003 at 07:53:11 PM MST
sine wave inverter circuit

    Does anyone know of a sine-wave inverter circuit that could be home-brewed???
             RayW
Sine wave inverter | 17 comments (17 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Sine wave inverter (none / 0) (#1)
by RobD on Sun Nov 2nd, 2003 at 09:53:24 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.dsgnspec.com

I personally haven't found any easy ones Ray. I was going to design one myself but now the prices seem to be falling so I'll wait on it. The technology is out there and getting better everyday. If you can program AVR microcontrollers go to the Atmel web site. You'll see it's quite extensive and costly.
For what it's worth I think you can build a 'stepped' inverter with about 8 steps in each half wave that will work close to the pure sine ones with a lot less electronics. I may do one of those and post the circuits.
RobD



Re: Sine wave inverter (none / 0) (#4)
by jubalearly on Mon Nov 3rd, 2003 at 08:03:06 AM MST
(User Info)

    Rob D said: For what it's worth I think you can build a 'stepped' inverter with about 8 steps in each half wave that will work close to the pure sine ones with a lot less electronics. I may do one of those and post the circuits.

    I wondered if 'magic sine waves' as promoted by Don Lancaster @ http://tinaja.com/magsn01.asp
might be an easier approach. They are supposed to be microprocessor friendly and suitable for inverters.

Here's a brief description taken from Don's psge:  "Magic sinewaves" are repeating long sequences of ones and zeros. They can get created from ordinary but extremely carefully chosen
digitally switched pulses.

Digital sinewaves with precisely controlled amplitudes and amazingly
low distortions. Compared to traditional PWM, magic sinewaves can
offer far higher efficiencies and lower distortions. With circuitry that
is elegantly simple and microcontroller friendly.

[ Parent ]



Re: Sine wave inverter (none / 0) (#5)
by RobD on Mon Nov 3rd, 2003 at 03:54:52 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.dsgnspec.com

I forgot about this one. I looked at it a few years ago and it seemed good. I have a couple of Don's books and they are quite good. Is he giving out the algorithm for his magic waves?
RobD

[ Parent ]


Re: Sine wave inverter (none / 0) (#6)
by kmitchel on Mon Nov 3rd, 2003 at 04:51:35 PM MST
(User Info)

I've been thinking that this approach--Magic Sine Waves--would be awesome for inverters, but have never seen it implemented.  The I2K inverter I previously posted is the closest, but all he is really doing is lengthing the pulses to do power factor compensation.  Wish someone would develop one.

[ Parent ]


Re: Sine wave inverter (none / 0) (#2)
by kmitchel on Mon Nov 3rd, 2003 at 12:08:56 AM MST
(User Info)

maybe http://www.technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele/i2k.htm

not a true sine-wave inverter



Re: Sine wave inverter (none / 0) (#3)
by RobD on Mon Nov 3rd, 2003 at 06:06:52 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.dsgnspec.com

Thanks Kmitchel,
I have just looked at this page and the inverter. It is basically a low frequency square wave inverter. The two transformers are driven at 60 Hz in much the same manner as a class AB audio amplifier. There is nothing wrong with this approach excepting that AB amps have relatively low efficiency (75% at best). The low internal resistance of the MOSFETS (rds(on)) save the inverter from some real heat problems. Obtaining the transformers might also be a problem and I imagine they are quite expensive.

RobD

[ Parent ]



Re: Sine wave inverter (none / 0) (#7)
by kmitchel on Mon Nov 3rd, 2003 at 05:02:31 PM MST
(User Info)

I believe it's more like a class D amp.  The MOSFET's are either on or off.  It would be nice to see this inverter futher developed, but I am grateful the author posted the work he did do.  As far as the transformers, maybe...http://members.tripod.com/~schematics/xform/xformer4.htm
I was kind of suprised he used two in parrallel.  I think in any homemade high VA invter transformers would be a problem.  I kind of question how cost effective a homebrewed inverter is, and whether it's better in the long run to buy a commercial inverter.  Maybe multiple small (cheap) inverters tasked to specific applications.  And get a smaller true sinewave inverter just for the stuff that really needs it.  

[ Parent ]


Re: Sine wave inverter (none / 0) (#8)
by laskey on Mon Nov 3rd, 2003 at 06:33:35 PM MST
(User Info)

I was thinking of doing some modifications to commercial inverter.  You know smooth the steps out before they are amplified in a everyday old cheap inverter.  Honestly, How hard could it be?

Cya,
Chris

[ Parent ]



Re: Sine wave inverter (none / 0) (#9)
by Budgreen on Tue Nov 4th, 2003 at 10:57:35 AM MST
(User Info)

it could be fairly hard and not worth the time.. most inverter ups systems that have non-square wave outputs normally use a microprocessor to create the waveforms and do the rest of the inverter control. if you could read the software off it and recode it would be very possible but quite time consuming :)

on another note you could start and make a dc-dc converter first say 24vin 170v out.. pwm controlled, take a recitfied 170v out and run it to an H-bridge, controll the H bridge with a 10-25khz pwm signal modulated by a 60hz stable sine wave, then filter the output of the H-bridge to remove the 10-25khz pwm frequency and your left with a nice sine wave output at a high efficiency.

I have been trying to come up with a good dc-dc converter information to try and design a 24v-170v converter (that in itself is easy, just getting it to put out 10-20A is the hard part) so if anyone could help in this arena I may have schematics available by the end of the year :)

[ Parent ]



Didn't see this option mentioned: (none / 0) (#10)
by TomW on Tue Nov 4th, 2003 at 12:10:01 PM MST
(User Info)

Folks;

This is not new at all but have any of you considered just driving an induction motor at its generating speed [with caps added] by using a dc motor from your batteries perhaps with some form of speed regulation?

The output from an induction motor would be the purest of sinewaves.

Just another way although mechanical it would work.

Cheers.

TomW

Light Travels Faster Than Sound, Which Is Why Some People Appear Bright Until You Hear Them Speak.




Re: Didn't see this option mentioned: (none / 0) (#11)
by Budgreen on Tue Nov 4th, 2003 at 12:47:05 PM MST
(User Info)

that is indeed a feasible idea..

but the concern would be how efficient would (say a 5hp) dc motor be? plus the current draw of the motor unloaded to spin the induction motor with relatively little load?
using 250W of power to spin a motor to run a 50W ac load might not be reasonable
(wattages just guestimated as I have no source to back it up)

[ Parent ]



Re: Didn't see this option mentioned: (none / 0) (#12)
by boB on Tue Nov 4th, 2003 at 12:55:55 PM MST
(User Info) http://bob.gudgel.org

There is a contruction article in the latest Electronics World (Wireless World)
magazine from the UK.  You can find this one at Barnes and Noble.  It's the front
page picture and main article.  500 Watts and sine wave inverter.

It's not bad !
boB


[ Parent ]



Re: Didn't see this option mentioned: (none / 0) (#13)
by drdongle (Dr.Dongle1@juno.com) on Tue Nov 4th, 2003 at 04:14:45 PM MST
(User Info)

This is called a MG set or motor-generator and the idea has been used for may years by the military and commercially for every thing from radio equipment to elevators.
 There not particulary efficent.
Dr.D
Carpe Vigor, Dr.D
[ Parent ]


Re: Sine wave inverter (none / 0) (#14)
by ibedonc on Tue Nov 4th, 2003 at 10:21:23 PM MST
(User Info)

National makes a CLASS D amp chipset that I am going to base my Sinewave Inverter off of ,and I have a chip to make the 60hz sine , this will drive the CLASS D amp which
will drive H-Bridge modules that will handle 5k watt each, need another 5k just add
another module and mine will put out 220v just like the power co , when I am done
I want to be able to do 40k watt also the controller will turn on output modules based
on need, only need one running , then only one will be on , turn on something that needs 2 then it will enable 2

I could also make them on 1k modules  



Re: Sine wave inverter (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by mrpackethead (andrew dot frazer at sententia.co.nz) on Thu Jan 18th, 2007 at 03:57:10 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi, i see your post was a long time ago about using the national chipset to run a  Class D amp as an sine wave inverter..

Did you ever get this up and running?

I found your post after having the same idea.  
Everything should be as simple as possible. not simpler.
[ Parent ]



Re: Sine wave inverter (none / 0) (#15)
by Budgreen on Wed Nov 5th, 2003 at 07:02:46 AM MST
(User Info)

what voltage will you switch? low voltage and then step up with transformer? or just chop a 310v signal?

[ Parent ]


Re: Sine wave inverter (none / 0) (#16)
by ibedonc on Wed Nov 5th, 2003 at 08:45:12 PM MST
(User Info)

DC 48v to 310v with lot of capacitors for surge this is the supply power for the h bridge

using toroids for the stepup supply , 25khz switching freq

my first electronic Job was for ELPAC , electronic switching power supplies

I will monitor the current though each module with a current sense

[ Parent ]



Sine wave inverter | 17 comments (17 topical, 0 editorial)
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