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What would happen if


By monte350c, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 08:27:15 PM MST
a PM alternator was designed with only north poles?

Hi All,

This may seem like a really dumb question but here goes - what would happen if a permanent magent alternator was assembled with only one direction of flux like this:

Would there be any generating going on? Would it produce a wierd type of AC with the sine wave displaced up of the normal axis? Or....

Just curious!

Have fun!

Ted.

What would happen if | 10 comments (10 topical)

Re: What would happen if (none / 0) (#1)
by Electric Ed on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 09:19:37 PM MST

You would get normal AC. Because magnetic flux lines form closed loops, each line returns to the magnet it started from, and "consequent poles" will develop in the iron rotor disc, between the "salient" (actual) poles.

You will have twice as many poles as actual magnets, but the flux will be weakened, due to the wider air gap at the consequent poles.
Also, the pole spacing will not be optimum, unless the consequent poles are considered when spacing the magnets.

Electric Ed



Re: What would happen if (none / 0) (#2)
by monte350c on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 09:38:30 PM MST

Thanks Ed,

Actually I was trying to figure out if it would be possible to have an alternator that would operate at 60hz, 2400 rpm. I have pretty much always seen multiples of 2 when it comes to poles - so I guess if you had 3 poles arranged as above, spinning at 2400 rpm it would give 60hz?

Thanks for your thoughts!  

Having fun,

Ted.

[ Parent ]



Re: What would happen if (none / 0) (#3)
by charged on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 07:13:49 AM MST


Here's a configuration that works quite well. It maintains full flux-usage but never "flips" the core back through it's hysteresis loss zone.

Sorry the drawing is so crude. Using a scavenged transformer core and three sets of magnets spaced 120 degrees apart around the outside of the rotor, at 2400 rpm this would produce 120 full cycles per second.

It would make more sense to put a single rectifier diode on each winding, output those current pulses to a large electrolytic capacitor. Then use a power mosfet (or IGBT) to pulse the capacitor into a heavy 1:1 transformer with 50% duty-cycle 60hz pulses to get your desired AC frequency out of the secondary winding. It's just a simple chopper-inverter circuit.

Hope this helps.





Re: What would happen if (none / 0) (#4)
by monte350c on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 08:57:14 AM MST

Hi Charged,

That's a pretty interesting idea! I'd love to give it a try.

My goal for this particular project is to make up a small alternator. I'd like 60 hz at 2400 rpm -  I could do a 4 pole for 1800 rpm without much problem but I was interested to see if 2400 is a do-able number. This unit needs to be very simple without electronics.

A 2 pole unit will lead to 3600 rpm operation - too high for this application.

I gathered that the formula for frequency is (number of poles x rpm) / 120 but every textbook example of alternators I've seen so far always has poles in multiples of 2.

This made me curious about odd numbers of poles - ie. 3, 5, 7 etc. to tune rpm more exactly. Possible or not - I'm really kind of past the limit of my electro-magnetic knowledge at this point!!

But it's definitely a lot of fun - learning a lot.

Ted.

[ Parent ]



Re: What would happen if (none / 0) (#5)
by Electric Ed on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 09:53:56 AM MST

Your sketch reminded me of another layout I'd like to try.
Although it isn't low hysteresis, it makes use of old transformer cores.

Electric Ed



[ Parent ]



Re: What would happen if (none / 0) (#6)
by Jerry on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 09:23:21 PM MST

The problem I see on this one. The cogging would huge. You'd need a 4ft pipe wrench to break it loose. Ask Zubly on this one?

                          JK TAS Jerry

Airheads Page


[ Parent ]



Re: What would happen if (none / 0) (#7)
by iFred on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 11:48:26 PM MST


I have seen this in a machine a couple months ago from someone on this web site that posted here, had this configuration. I think the cog would be a problem, but the output would be fanastic and high!!  Woulld be good as a backup for a gas engine genarator though!
>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!
[ Parent ]


Re: What would happen if (none / 0) (#9)
by Kevin L on Sat Nov 29, 2003 at 09:11:58 AM MST

Ed,

You would know a good source of transformers that would work well for this layout would you.  I would like to give this a try.

Kevin L

[ Parent ]



Re: What would happen if (none / 0) (#8)
by RobD on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 08:46:11 AM MST

I think you could run the magnets at an angle on this and cut down the cogging somewhat. I like the idea.

RobD



Re: What would happen if (none / 0) (#10)
by charged on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 01:16:37 PM MST

If you are applying the low hysteresis method without inverting the stator poles, getting rid of the cogging is easy.

There is no limit to the number of magnets or stators you can "stack" on the axle. It is not limited to just three poles. You can make as many layers to the stack as you want and then just add more transformer cores that are in parallel with the axle shaft. Like my cruddy ascii drawing here.

E ||
E ||
E ||
E ||

Around the circumference of the rotor, use and EVEN number of stator sets and an ODD number of rotor magnets. Each set or "stack" of stator poles is wired in series with a single rectifier diode and it feeds an electrolytic capacitor.

Then just wire it up like so and shuttle your power around to wherever you like.





What would happen if | 10 comments (10 topical)
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