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Getting rid of the cog - re-post


By iFred, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Wed Dec 10th, 2003 at 01:58:57 PM MST
I posted this once before, but seems importent now... Think about it!

Getting rid of the cog - re-post | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial)

speaking of older posts... (none / 0) (#1)
by TomW on Wed Dec 10th, 2003 at 02:43:16 PM MST
(User Info)

ifred;

So what ever happened with your magnetic interruptor  research?

Very curious why you just stopped talking about it?

Cheers.

TomW

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain



Re: speaking of older posts... (none / 0) (#6)
by iFred (ifred2006@yahoo.com) on Wed Dec 10th, 2003 at 08:26:45 PM MST
(User Info)


no reason, just have not enough time for more research.

>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!
[ Parent ]


Re: Getting rid of the cog - re-post (none / 0) (#2)
by RobD on Wed Dec 10th, 2003 at 04:58:42 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.dsgnspec.com

I took apart an Air 403 and I found that the magnets on the armature had one section with a greater gap then the other. I think this does the same thing as they get very little cogging.
RobD



Re: Getting rid of the cog - re-post (none / 0) (#4)
by dconn on Wed Dec 10th, 2003 at 05:49:33 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi RobD,

I also wondered over that gap in the AIR403 magnet rotor.  I think there are maybe 12 smallish neo magnets?  I cant remember if the gap is a whole magnet width (The gap just wouldn't matter then?) but the stator is three phase (although there are different wire sizes on each phase - to allow for low RPM generation?) so you'd think that the poly-phase layout that iFred suggests wouldn't work so easily?  iFred's layout a phase per coil.

Of course the gap in the AIR403 is very handly for that metal band to be screwed down with.

Actually the AIR403 rotor/stator layout is very nice - but its just too small and I wonder if it is better to have the magnets on the outside like Hugh Piggots brake drum plans (seemingly scrapped now in this new age of radial designs).

All the best - Derek

[ Parent ]



Re: Getting rid of the cog - re-post (none / 0) (#11)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Thu Dec 11th, 2003 at 08:52:02 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

I've taken a couple Air 403's apart, and I've seen two diff. magnet rotors in them.  Sometimes you'll find the magnets layed in straight - when they did that, the tops were arched (probably to reduce cogging a bit).  In others (I think newer models) they use pretty normal bar magnets, but they are slightly skewed.

[ Parent ]


Re: Getting rid of the cog - re-post (none / 0) (#3)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Wed Dec 10th, 2003 at 05:28:05 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

  iFred,
     Thats darn'd close to what I'm comtemplating as my next low speed alternator.  I've worked out the details on a progressive winding 3phase.  16 magnets over 36 slots.  3 complete 3phase units in one.  It should handle low, medium and high speed operation while holding constant load on the machine.  This has been one of my hold ups on the "Lenz" turbine because of the lower speed of operation.

     The air 403 uses a similar concept as rob metioned.  They've set their spacing back a bit and the phase difference is small so it still works.  I think the unit suffers from the offset though with a little bit of canceling.  It does allow it to start up sooner.  

Have Fun!
Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed



Re: Getting rid of the cog - re-post (none / 0) (#5)
by Jerry on Wed Dec 10th, 2003 at 08:25:49 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.dplusv.com/Photo-03.html

Hi Ed
The 403 needs all the sooner start help it can get. I wish you guys could see just how much time the 403 on my roof sets idel while the homebrew gennies are spinning.

I think the only reason SW put the space in the 403 was to have room for the screw that holds the band down to the amature. It dose make a cogging sound.

When I fist got the 403 I made the second mistake by mounting it to my metal shop. At low rpm it makes a growelling thats very anoing. Not to mention the blade noise.

How dose that poly phase thing work with N, S, N, S and the last north right next to the first N? Looks like there would be a bit of a lump or bump or a goofy wave form when this odd couple came around while the rest are normal nsns?

                        JK TAS Jerry

Airheads Page


[ Parent ]



Re: Getting rid of the cog - re-post (none / 0) (#12)
by Victor on Thu Dec 11th, 2003 at 09:03:10 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi Ed,
 Youv'e got it right, each tooth is phased a little bit. If you crunch the numbers you will see it has exactly the same electrical effect as skewing.

Make the wind fun!
Victor

[ Parent ]



Re: Getting rid of the cog - re-post (none / 0) (#7)
by iFred (ifred2006@yahoo.com) on Wed Dec 10th, 2003 at 08:31:00 PM MST
(User Info)


interesting what this air 403 is doing. I have never seen one before, so I can't say but it sounds like it. Are there lots of diodes by any chance in any of the circuits?

Thanks!
 
>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!



Re: Getting rid of the cog - re-post (none / 0) (#8)
by Jerry on Wed Dec 10th, 2003 at 09:02:49 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.dplusv.com/Photo-03.html

Hi Ifred
I was having trouble with my 403. I sent it back to the factory twice for the same problem. The little brain inside would put a small load on my batteries during no wind days and drain power down a little.

I called the teck the third time and he told me to just take the little brain out. I did and it actully improved its over all preformance a little. I  would  say its preformance went from crap all the way up to suck. A small change but noticable.

Again this is just my personal observation of my own 403. Others may not share my thoughtrs.

                        JK TAS Jerry

Airheads Page


[ Parent ]



Re: Getting rid of the cog - re-post (none / 0) (#9)
by RobD on Wed Dec 10th, 2003 at 11:06:38 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.dsgnspec.com

Sorry you don't like your 403 Jerry. It does need some wind to go.
I put a scope on the output and the wave is very good with no cancellation that I can see. The gap is less then one magnet width. I haven't played with the brain but the new 'x' is supposed to be an improvement on it that makes it start sooner. So maybe some people complained.
They get a very good wave out of it with a sine wave that spends a lot of time high up. The magnet placement helps this from what I can see.
I'm using the same band on my magnets they use. I bought some thin stainless sheets from my supplier and I cut them into bands. I tried using CV joint bands but they weren't as good. I use the bands with epoxy. (JB weld or liquid steel)
The alternator I built for my exercise bike cogs badly so I may change the magnet placement on it. I'm also thinking of using several magnets in a staggered row around an armature to cut down on the cogging. I haven't tried it yet.
I also thought of using a system to shift the armature out of the field to start my machines sooner but I'm against using to many mechanical things that can fail.
Hugh has the right idea about using the largest diameter you can get. you pick up power with diameter that translates directly to armature speed.



Re: Getting rid of the cog - re-post (none / 0) (#10)
by desertratjack on Thu Dec 11th, 2003 at 08:04:37 AM MST
(User Info)

How are the ends of the bands you cut held together?

[ Parent ]


Re: Getting rid of the cog - re-post (none / 0) (#13)
by RobD on Thu Dec 11th, 2003 at 01:57:41 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.dsgnspec.com

I buy sheets of SS shim stock. (non magnetic .012" -6"x 24"). I cut the stock from 3/4" to 1/4" width depending on my mags. I drill and tap a hole in the gap, place the band and measure to the hole. I then clamp it together and drill a hole in the band and attach it with a SS screw. I make the band about 1/16" short so the screw doesn't bottom but holds the band very tight. I use a long dry epoxy so it sets overnight. The epoxy holds the mags from shifing and in place the band adds security in case the epoxy ever fails. I lose a few thousands in air gap but it works well and I don't have to overload the armature with epoxy which makes removing the magnets easier if I decide to change the design. (I hate gopping up my expensive mags with epoxy!)
RobD

[ Parent ]


Re: Getting rid of the cog - re-post (none / 0) (#14)
by Old F on Sat Dec 13th, 2003 at 02:57:07 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.oldf.homestead.com

This may be a dumb question but with the magnets mounted as showed .
Wouldn't rotor be way out of balance ?  

Old F



Re: Getting rid of the cog - re-post (none / 0) (#15)
by desertratjack on Tue Feb 24th, 2004 at 09:43:28 AM MST
(User Info)

Very good......thanks



Getting rid of the cog - re-post | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial)
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