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Bedini questions


By monte350c, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sun Dec 14, 2003 at 11:49:49 PM MST
Soldering Iron heating up as we speak...

Hi All,

Oh dear. I feel an overwhelming need to build one of these Bedini motors. I don't really care about over unity. But I am interested in high efficiency and the thought of having one of these critters spinning away on my desk for a long while on a battery is strangely appealing!

So I don't have to repeat anything others have done before that didn't work too well - here's what I've got so far -

  • Read the Bedini motor patent over several times
  • Downloaded the twin battery circuit available on the Web
  • asked a few preliminary questions - and here are a couple more:
It seems that one of the more important things is timing, of both the primary and secondary sides of the circuit.

The primary side is pretty well explained and I kind of 'get' what's going on there. But the secondary side, with the capacitor charging the battery I must admit to some confusion on that point. I've read some very helpful stuff from "charged" here, that basically says the cap will sit at the battery potential, then gather up charge from the back EMF on the coil, then at some point (designed to be not in-line with any rotor / stator magnetic activity) be discharged into the battery. So my question is - instead of using a seperate timing wheel and discharge switch - could I mount a commutator (either mechanical or electronic) on the main shaft and have it discharge once per revolution? Or would that not give sufficient time for the cap to charge?

My knowledge on caps in general is pretty shaky - other than my electronics shop teacher many years ago who had a device about the size of a toilet paper tube, covered in tin foil with two insulating spaces down the sides on his desk. As I came to know there was some kind of cap inside it because when curious visitors picked it up there was a pretty decent shock in store. (OW - voice of experience...)

One of the appealing things about this motor - I just searched through my junk drawer and found everything on the diagram for this motor except the batteries.

Having fun!

Ted.

Bedini questions | 8 comments (8 topical)

Re: Bedini questions (none / 0) (#1)
by windstuffnow on Mon Dec 15, 2003 at 10:14:21 AM MST

  Hi Monte,
     I haven't built a "bedini" motor per say, I've built a few based on the original "Lenz" concept which was used to prove the "Lenz law" then later went on to experimenting with the "Adams motor" which is what I believe the bedini motor principal is based on.  One of my early models ran for 6 months by switch charging 2 dead 9V batteries. The coils ran about 20 degrees below ambient for the whole time.  Later I went on to building some more advanced models the last one shown below...  This one had dual rotors with 4 coils.  Each coil had 2 windings (primary and secondary) for extracting back emf.  The voltage going into the caps sometimes exceeded 1500 volts.  When connected to 2 8ft flourescent bulbs, had no trouble powering them up to full light.  The motor ran at 7200 rpm and ran from a 12V battery drawing about 5 amps.  It never made an "over unity" output but It did come in at around 97% as long as it only ran itself and powering flourescents or recharging the secondary battery.  So basically it was extreemly efficient as long as it did no real work.  I used a hall sensor for the timing and mosfets for powering the coils.  I must have spent 2 years playing with about 40 different motors I built before I decided to move on to other things.  Then built a magnetic rotary engine followed by a new hobby into the stirling engines... and on and on and still going!
Have Fun
Ed


Have Fun! Windstuff Ed



Re: Bedini questions (none / 0) (#2)
by ibedonc on Mon Dec 15, 2003 at 12:59:44 PM MST

I believe Bedini does it every 3 turns , I plan on doing mine with a divider ic or a few flip-flops ic's , look on his page  http://www.icehouse.net/john1/intro.html you will a circuit for a pulse charger ,also look here

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FP TO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=bedini&FIELD1=IN&co1=AND&TERM2= &FIELD2=&d=PG01

From:   "roamer1952000" <roamer@c...>
Date:  Thu Sep 11, 2003  4:19 pm
Subject:  Re: Bedini motor

look at the pulse charger one

this even tells what all the parts are

also this will help you with the coil and setting it up

found this in the yahoo group free_energy

From:   "roamer1952000" <roamer@c...>
Date:  Thu Sep 11, 2003  4:19 pm
Subject:  Re: Bedini motor

Ok, start with an EXACT replication (same proportions and layout) of
the full motor diagram of patent #6,545,444.

To make the Stator winding assembly:

First, cut a 1" long piece of 1/2" cpvc tubing.

I then picked up a couple of the PVC "electrical outlet boxes" and cut
the spool ends out of the flat sides. Just use a circle cutter on a
drill. After cutting out the two circles, drill out the center hole in
each to match the OD of the CPVC tube. Then just use regular pipe glue
to put the ends on the spool.

Make a trifilar winding of 500turns, using #23 magnet wire. Make sure
the winding is tight, then wrap it with tape to hold everything in
place. Or, you can glue it all up or whatever. Just be sure the
windings aren't loose.

Match up the winding ends for input, output, and feedback windings.

To make the stator core:

INCREASING INDUCTANCE is the key here.

Increasing ANY ONE of three main factors increases the inductance of
the core.

  1. Cross-sectional ara of the core (view from end)
  2. Number of turns
  3. Permeability of the core material
  4. Decrease core length (pole-to-pole)
The stator core must be made from a low-loss material. Something with
low hysteresis, low eddy current losses and high permeability is
preferred. Pure iron wire would be great.

I've been using a bunch of 1/16" steel welding wire strands, pressed
into a 1/2"x1" CPVC tube spool. I clipped them all to fit inside the
length of the spool, leaving about 1/2" extra sticking out one end.

Take them back out of the spool and stand all of the core wires in a
foam block. Only stick them in about 1/4". Then coat each strand with
spray enamel. This insulates each wire INDIVIDUALLY and greatly
reduces eddy current losses when you pack them into the core.

Once the paint has cured and is HARD, jam the wires into the core as
smoothly as you can, without chipping off any paint. Leave the
uncoated ends sticking out the BACK SIDE of the stator.

Squirt superglue into the pack of core wires to lock them in place.
Once it's fully cured, cut off the unpainted ends flush with the back
side of the core. Use some fine sandpaper and a wire brush to made
sure that end of the core is free from overhaning burrs and metal
dust. Put a little more superglue into that end.

Ok, so now you have your stator. Most of the real work is done.

Go take a look at patent #6,292,370.

You'll see that is shows TWO stator windings. Ignore that part for now.
You'll also see that there is another permanent magnet at the BASE of
the stator pole. It's set in ATTRACT mode with the rotor magnets.

This "backside" magnet puts a "field tension" on the core. When you
apply current to the core windings in opposition to this pre-existing
"hard" field, YOU don't have to waste energy on hysteresis in the
core. The PM has ALREADY ALIGNED AND TENSIONED all the magnetic
domains in the core FOR YOU. It's kinda like blowing up a balloon. You
don't get ANY TENSION on the balloon surface until you take up the
slack inside with YOUR AIR INPUT. Once you pass that point, YOUR AIR
INPUT starts stretching the balloon surface. THAT is the only energy
you'd get back when you release the air from the balloon. It works the
same way with the domains in the steel. The very first part of the
current YOU put into a plain steel core is spent ENTIRELY on getting
the domains organized and aligned. Once aligned THEN the field starts
to build and store energy. The PM takes care of this for you.

> In the case of the Bedini motor it was never said if it attracted or
> repelled and the coil direction winding (not specified clockwise or
> counter clockwise) would make it work either way. We are
> pretty sure but not certain that it had free magnet to core attraction
> and then the postitive pulse came from the trigger coil a few degrees
> after dead center to turn on the transistor and
> repel it past the lockup point of the free attraction.
>
>
> Norman

You didn't study the patents enough. EVERYTHING about this device is
in those patents. I mean EVERYTHING. Start reading with a "lawyers eyes".

The primary winding is FULLY energized in REPULSION mode, just as the
rotor reaches TDC. Bear in mind that the bipolar transistor IS already
starting to turn on once base-lead threshold is reached by the
incoming pulse. It is an "increasing ramp turn-on" that coincides with
increasing positive current slope coming from the "sense" winding.
This "RAMP" is important. Re-read.

Ok, now think about this one. In a circuit with a common ground on two
batteries, one battery being a 12 volt and the other being a 9 volt,
what happens if you connect the two positive terminals together on
those two batteries?

What if both batteries are 12v?

What if a generator is putting out exactly 12v pure DC and you hook it
to a battery at exactly 12v. Does any current flow in either direction?

The transistor must come on just enough to make a "null" field zone
between the stator and the rotor. NOT A PUSH.

******************

Ok, let's now assume that your motor is assembled JUST LIKE THE
PATENT, with 3 magnets spaced at 120 degrees on the wheel.

YOU MUST mount your stator in such a way that you can ADJUST THE GAP
between the magnet and stator core. Without this, you'll probably fail.

This GAP is set to match whatever battery you're using to "power" the
motor. It's REALLY SIMPLE TO SET.

First, get a couple of alligator clip leads and hook them up to your
battery.

Find out what the stator polarity needs to be to PUSH the rotor magnet
away. Once you've found that out, you can begin adjustment of the gap.
I usually just put a piece of masking tape around those wires where
they come out of the stator, and mark them positive and negative.

With the battery shorted into the winding, find the distance where the
rotor magnet is neither pushed away NOR pulled in. There IS a sort of
"bobbling point" in there somewhere. Get it as close as you can THEN
set it SLIGHTLY on the repulsion side of that "null" zone. When you're
using the transistor, it will drop the battery voltage a bit. This
then drops the field slightly and, Voila! You're in the "null" zone,
or, ahem..... The Zero Point. heh.

NOW, when the transistor is energized, you won't be wasting any energy
to PUSH the magnet away. It will do IT'S OWN PUSHING as it's leaving
TDC. You will ONLY provide a little "null" zone for the magnet to be
"free" to do what it wants. This means that ALL THE TORQUE on the
shaft is PURELY from the magnets own attractions and repulsions. It
can't be anything else doing it since you ALREADY know YOU set the gap
to be a NULL at FULL BATTERY VOLTAGE. You couldn't PUSH it if you
wanted to. The transistor is even DROPPING some of your original
voltage, so you're actually just BARELY nullifying the field at TDC.
Ok, if you don't get it, re-read.

You now have ENOUGH info to accurately reproduce the device.

Here's a snapshot of what is really happening.
First, we'll review "Lenz Law" which states:

"An induced current flows in a direction to create a magnetic field
which will counteract the change in magnetic flux."

In other words ANY TIME a magnetic field APPROCHES a closed loop of
conductor, a CURRENT flows in that conductor loop. That current flow
causes an OPPOSING field to the approaching field and creates DRAG.

The same thing happens when you REMOVE a magnetic field from a closed
conductor loop. It PULLS at the field and DRAGS it back.

This is why conventional generators ALWAYS require more torque on the
shaft when you have a LOAD on them.

IF that aforementioned conductor is NOT in a closed loop, no current
flows and there is NO DRAG, Just a measurable "open circuit voltage".

Keep all this in mind while you follow along here.

  1. Rotor magnet approaches the stator.
  2. sense winding triggers the base with an increasing current RAMP as
the PM field SWEEPS INTO the stator core. NO LOAD is applied during
this phase (except for base lead) SO ALL the PM attraction goes into
ACCELERATION of the rotor. This is REAL TORQUE as offered up by
NATURE, NOT YOU.

3. Slightly before and AT TDC, a little dance occurs.

a. the transistor RAMPS "on" to NULLIFY PM FIELD ENTRY into the
core. This is actually a very small expenditure of battery current,
just to bring the two fields into the "null". This CANNOT BE A PUSH
since your battery's voltage isn't high enough to do that.

b. AT TDC, the rotor no longer "sees" anything to be attracted to,
it's field is no longer EXTENDING in attraction to the stator core.
The core is "stealthed". The rotor skates merrily on by, thinking
nothing is wrong. Tum-te-tum-te-tum..... heh.

c. JUST AFTER TDC, the transistor is SLAMMED into "off" mode and
the rotor is already moving AWAY. BUT, it's field now WANTS to extend
to the nearby core and ENTER IT. Hmmmm...

d. The magnet's FIELD is trying to EXPAND and enter the core. The
windings are now LOADED by the storage capacitor, a practically dead
short on the windings. Hmmmm......

What does Lenz law say? Something about when a FIELD APPROACHES a
CLOSED LOOP CONDUCTOR, that conductor produces an OPPOSING FIELD that
PUSHES BACK at the approaching field. RE-READ until you SEE IT in your
head.

The physical magnet and it's FIELD are TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES, NOT ONE.

The magnet is moving away and it's field get's a PUSH from the EMF
extraction through the capacitor.

Shake you head a little. Go slam a door a few times. Yell at the cat.

Now, re-read and recognize the implications of what you just learned.

Lenz Law can NEVER BE DEFEATED. And, it doesn't need to be. It works
FOR YOU with this design.

ok , then this is from Bedini's page
US Patent# 6,545,444,and US2003/0117111A1 now granted.

Their is one thing we should get straight right now, the dimensions of the coil are not important. The resistance of the coil is not important, the windings are not important, the magnets are not important. None of these things mean anything.  All of you are wasting your good earned money on neo- magnets, dime store magnets will do just fine stacked together. There is no secret to this machine, it's the process and the switching that's important!!!!! I have never counted one winding when I was making these motors with Peter,  I'm not saying one turn of wire will work because it won't, again what is important is, THE PROCESS AND HOW YOU COLLECT IT AND SWITCH IT. Why are you all thinking that it makes a difference in how the coil is wound, here is a number for you 500 turns number 23 tri-filer wound wire, see no step up no step down, just 1 to 1 ,welding rod for the core, roller-skate wheel, all north poles out, 2n3055 TO-3 case Junk but better, Do not use TIP 3055 it's just real junk , 330 ohms base resistor, 1N914 diode, hooked up the way I said. that's it. This makes your mechanical inductive coupled oscillator no big deal. By the way you are right about the terminology, we are babies at this to, just trying to (DEAD MAN FUSE IT), Nature does not care what the coil looks like. OH forgot the 1kv diode bridge on the third winding, and a 10Uf 500 volt cap, be careful you will fly across the room. I said I broke the machine into three patents, third patent, use the bottom half of switcher only. Do we all get it now?, By the way this is a limited machine to just study the radiant current to the battery. Thomas Bearden has defined it!!! "Everything in nature is simple this is the most complicated to the human mind, let's keep it simple".

Most of the problems with what you are doing is, the magnets, using a bolt for the core is not right, I said cut welding rod  and  you are not selecting the correct resistor for the base current for this mechanical oscillator. Save your money you do not want to use NEO-MAGNETS, just use radio shack cheap magnets!!!!

WHY?

This motor energizer is a mechanical oscillator whose speed depends on the lowest amount of current you can put into the coil. If you apply too much current, you cause the transistor to cross conduct (known as cross conduction current). When you do this, the semiconductor over heats, because the current to the transistor stays on and the mechanical oscillator runs slow.You cause the same thing to happen by using NEO-MAGNETS. Once the mechanical oscillator is running , YOU MUST ADJUST THE BASE RESISTOR TO THE HIGHEST VALUE that gives you the highest speed with the lowest current draw. The more magnets you get around the wheel the better the collection process will be.  The magnets can not be too close together and must be spaced evenly around the wheel. You can find the right magnets at Radio Shack or a hardware store.

For the coil, just use an old solder roll or a bobbin you get wire on, cut and fill the center hole with .030 welding rod . This works really well.



Re: Bedini questions (none / 0) (#4)
by charged on Mon Dec 15, 2003 at 01:31:52 PM MST

Looks like there are a bunch more people already having fun with this thing than I thought!!

Maybe we should have a convention or something!

[ Parent ]



Re: Bedini questions (none / 0) (#5)
by bob golding on Mon Dec 15, 2003 at 04:52:01 PM MST

yep going to  make one myself when i get back home from this trip. opps getting to many projects again.  still they all seem to involve  caps and wire and magnets so thats ok  then. trying to steer clear of anything involving programming and i should at least have something to show at the end of it.

having too much fun here
bob


[ Parent ]



Re: Bedini questions (none / 0) (#3)
by charged on Mon Dec 15, 2003 at 01:23:52 PM MST

Hi Monte!

This one is running on what used to be my nightstand. Yep, there's nothing quite so soothing as clicking and rumbling bearings when you need to fall asleep. heh.

This one is using about 350uf (2 photoflash capacitors) rated at 400v each. The pulse rate is about 4hz. Why? Well, if you look at Bedini's charger patent, it says to keep the capacitors near the 20v range for max efficiency for each pulse. The less capacitance you have, the higher the voltage will rise between commutator pulses. I just built the commutator with 4 copper strips (cut from a scrap pipe) and then put caps on to see how high the voltage would climb on them between pulses. Turns out I only needed two caps on this one.

The Bedini and Adam's motors are two different creatures. I'm not going to go into the differences because others have done it elsewhere.

Take a real good look at the stator winding. What you have there is a 1:1 transformer.

Under "normal" use as a transformer, if you hit the primary with a 12v sinewave, put a full-wave bridge on the secondary, and then charged an electrolytic capacitor, you'd have 12VDC on the cap, maximum. If you put a  resistive load across the cap, like small bulb, you'd see the primary side current draw increase as the bulb draws the cap charge down below 12v.

That much is conventional transformer theory.

This motor something different. An incoming magnet generates a postitive sine which does no work except activating the base of the transistor.

The transistor switches the pimary battery on just as the magnet reaches TDC, and creates a "null" in the field interactions, allowing the magnet to float past TDC as if the stator isn't there.

Due to the slight delay in the transformer action, it takes a tiny fraction of a second for the feedback winding's output to invert to negative, clamping the transistor OFF.

The magnet's field once again tries to reach out for the stator and THIS action does two things.

  1. Voltage is a function of FLUX VELOCITY, CORE PERMEABILITY and NUMBER OF TURNS. So, the re-expanding magnetic field from the rotor magnet SLAMS into the core at nearly the speed of light. This generates an extremely high voltage that is WAY above primary battery voltage. This pulse EASILY fills a capacitor above primary voltage. Once the cap is above that primary voltage, the only current used from the primary is for field nullification. Nothing more.
  2. That capacitive LOADING on the secondary causes the stator core to develop a counter EM field that resists the incoming PM field from the DEPARTING rotor magnet, giving it an elastic SHOVE away from the stator.
In a nutshell, as long as your collection capacitor is NEVER DRAWN LOWER THAN PRIMARY BATTERY VOLTAGE, the stator winding arrangement effectively isolates the primary from the secondary and you don't need to worry about timing your output pulses against primary input pulses. The fact that your motor/gen gives you nothing but CEMF to work with in the secondary means the primary side will never notice ANYTHING that you do with the cap charge, UNLESS you draw that cap lower than primary voltage.

Once you get yours going, Get a small fan-blade and put it on the main rotor. Then watch what happens to your primary input power. Oh, ok, I'll just tell you. The input power drops as you load up the output shaft.

Sounds a little counter-intuitive. But, it's not. Just don't load it down so much that you stall it out. Every motor is different. This needs to be mechanically loaded the same way you load an IC engine with a fixed throttle, like a lawnmower. You can only cut so much at a time without binding and stalling. Same thing with the Bedini system.

Make sure you posts some pics when you get it finished!



Re: Bedini questions (none / 0) (#6)
by monte350c on Mon Dec 15, 2003 at 07:29:53 PM MST

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the replies! If I wasn't going to try one before this I sure am now. Might take a week or so but I'll post any results as they're available.  Great minds think alike... (modify saying and place period here!)

Lots of fun!

Ted.

[ Parent ]



Re: Bedini questions (none / 0) (#7)
by charged on Wed Dec 17, 2003 at 11:19:25 AM MST

Everyone should hit this page AGAIN!

http://www.icehouse.net/john1/index100.htm

There is a NEW CIRCUIT posted near the bottom of the page!

It describes EXACTLY what the inventor intended this "motor" to be!

Enjoy!



Re: Bedini questions (none / 0) (#8)
by monte350c on Wed Dec 17, 2003 at 01:26:04 PM MST

Hi Charged,

Hmmmm.... that's kind of what I was thinking about when I asked about eliminating the second belt-driven wheel. Very interesting! Thanks for the link.

Ted.

[ Parent ]



Bedini questions | 8 comments (8 topical)
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