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Twin Rotor Question??


By Hank, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Tue Dec 16, 2003 at 12:27:13 PM MST
What are the real advantages of a twin rotor?

Seems like twin rotors are in vogue now. Besides not needing laminates and reducing/eliminating cogging is there a real advantage that would justify the increase # of magnets and associated cost?
Twin Rotor Question?? | 5 comments (5 topical)

Re: Twin Rotor Question?? (none / 0) (#1)
by windstuffnow on Tue Dec 16, 2003 at 01:21:36 PM MST

  Hi Hank,
     I believe this is another "personal preference" type answer as well as skill and tools available.  There are advantages and disadvantages to both.  I prefere building them with laminants.  I think there is more bang for the bux, but... there is alot more work involved in slotting the laminants and its not something that's easily accomplished without the right tools.  The dual rotor system compensates for the missing laminant by using the magnets to concentrate the field through the coils but is fairly expensive  depending on the magnets you choose.  Cogging is only a problem when the magnets are lined up with the slots on the laminants this is easily overcome.  Cogging, due to current folowing through the coils is still a consideration in either system.  Single phase systems tend to hum or vibrate, the 3phase systems still have the hum but its far less distinctive.  So its basically back to the personal preference, skill and tools again... decisions... decisions....

Have Fun
Windstuff Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed



Re: Twin Rotor Question?? (none / 0) (#2)
by JB on Tue Dec 16, 2003 at 05:43:37 PM MST

Hey Ya Ed. Can you get into a little more detail how the cogging issue is easily overcome on the single rotor with laminates. Is it the laminates on the backside like the one that Dan did here the magnets actually the laminates on the backside. Thanks JB

[ Parent ]


Re: Twin Rotor Question?? (none / 0) (#3)
by windstuffnow on Tue Dec 16, 2003 at 06:55:20 PM MST

  Hi JB,
    In the past I've used an equal number of magnets to coils on the slotted stators.  The drawback to this is the slots line up with the poles causing a cogging as the magnetic field changes polarity from one slot to another.  If you think of the coil arrangement used in the dual rotor machines the cogging issue is solved.  I've designed a progressive 3phase machine that should prove interesting... It's definately been a challenge in designing.  16 magnets over 36 slots.

     Anyway if you think of a disc with say 8 magnets and wire the coils in the stator slots the same way as the dual rotor disc your done... no cogging.  I have a stator that I made up a long time ago but the slots were screwed up and I did a test using 16 poles over the stator.  Ran smooth as silk.  The stator was set up for 12 poles and had 36 slots.  This got me to thinking ( dangerous -)... a few pads of paper and some scorched brain cells I found a way to use all 36 slots and use a 16 pole disc.  The current induced cogging should be reduced to a minimum also.  I'll post the beast when its done.  Should make for some interesting conversation... if it works

Have Fun
windstuff Ed
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: Twin Rotor Question?? (none / 0) (#4)
by Hank on Tue Dec 16, 2003 at 07:09:13 PM MST

If I can chime in,

The single rotor unit I built had no static cogging.
The main difference is that I did not have slotted laminates in the stator. It was very similar to the ones Dan built. I think slotted laminates will probably always have some cogging (just physics).

Cogging when producing power I think will always be there, it's the nature of the beast. Besides, it's a good sound when it's humming away. It's power into the batteries and you know it's working.

Having a blast,
Hank



Re: Twin Rotor Question?? (none / 0) (#5)
by DanB on Wed Dec 17, 2003 at 08:42:10 AM MST

I'd agree with Ed to a large degree.. it boils down to available resources, and personal preferance I suppose.

Regarding alternator built purely from scratch - there seems to be about 3 popular ways of doing things right now.

We can have a single rotor machine, with stationary flat laminates which have the coils glued over the top of the laminates.
 - this may (or may not... hard to say) the easiest way to go.  It works out fine, and the advantages would be the simplicity of it.  It still required a bit of a wide airgap, and I think in the end you need about as much magnet overall as you would if you had a dual rotor machine.  (in other words the magnets would be just as well, or better used in a dual rotor machine)

We can slot the laminates and bury the coils down in them (like any normal "storebought" generator) - or like Ed prefers to do.  I think this must be absolutely the way to get the most bang from your buck in magnets and the best way to squeeze the most power at any given rpm from a given sized machine.  (it can probably be smaller and weigh less)  One drawback might be cogging - depending on how many phases there are and the layout of the stator.

The drawbacks of either of these laminate machines in my opinion are these...

there is a lot of force between the magnets and the laminates, so the bearing is under more stress.  This may or may not be an issue - I think if you use a good tapered wheel bearing it probably doesn't matter too much.  It may make it slightly stiffer to turn.
If you dont use very good, thin laminate material (silicon steel) - then the losses due to both hystoresis and eddy currents will make it stiff to turn, so it will not start as well in low winds and may be less efficient  - especially in low winds.

I built a laminate machine in May (which is currently running at my house).  It has 12 magnets, 1.8" diameter, and 1" thick.  (very large magnets!).  The stator has 9 coils each 65 windings of AWG 14 wire.  Cutin speed is around 150 and it's got a 9' prop on it.  The laminates are behind the coils (almost 5/8" back away from the magnets).  It runs pretty well and I think the output is good, however it is noticably stiffer to turn than a dual rotor machine even though I've used very good laminate material.  For example.. if I give it a good spin by hand...  it won't go around more than a couple times (unloaded).  In this case - it still starts up in 5mph or so.. so it is not a problem - but it's interesting.

The dual rotor machines Ive been making have two rotors - each rotor has 12 magnets 2" dia X 1/2" thick.  (slightly more, but not much more magnet) and the stators are identical (65 turns of AWG 14 wire).  They cutin around 110 rpm.  There is 0 loading on the bearing, and 0 iron losses (because there are no laminates) and if you spin it by hand it turns for a long time before bearing friction finally stops it.  The diff.  in how freely they turn between the laminate machine and the dual rotor machines I've made this year is very noticable.

In other laminate machines Ive made - Ive had problems sometimes with the airgap chagning - the magnets pulling the laminates out... etc, all of which can be solved by better construction.  In the dual rotor machine though its a non-issue.

So, I definitely prefer a dual rotor machine to a laminate machine which has the coils over the tops of the laminates - it uses about the same amount of magnets to get the same output, and it turns more easily (starts turning in lower winds) and is probably a bit more efficient.

Ive not experimented yet with slotting my laminates and burying the coils in there... I think that would be the way to get the most power with the smallest alternator and the least magnets, but there will still be the drawbacks of ... a bit more precision work, cogging, and loading on the bearing to some degree I suspect.



Twin Rotor Question?? | 5 comments (5 topical)
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