Go to Otherpower.com Home Page Go to Forcefield Shopping Cart Go to Wondermagnet.com Home Page
Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Reviews - Diaries - Our Products
Alternator finished


By DanB, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 08:20:54 AM MST
I got my alternator tested and almost finished

As per my last posting I'm trying to build a larger 14' diameter wind turbine.

Again, the steel rotors for the alternator are 14" diameter, and the magnets are such that 16 of them form a ring 14" outer diameter and 8" inner diameter, so the magnets are 3" tall, and about 2.5" wide at the top.  I'm using 12 of them, so there is about a 3/4" gap between the magnets.

I wound up one coil with 120 windings of AWG 14 wire - I knew this wouldn't be right, but I figured that by poking this one coil between the magnet rotors on my lathe I could get a pretty good idea exactly how many windings I needed per coil to get an appropriate cutin speed, and once I knew that I could figure the thickest possible wire that could be used to fit that many windings in the limited space available.  I figure for a 14' prop, it should start charging (cutin) at around 75 rpm if I'm running with a reasonably slow tip speed ratio.  This should start charging between 6 and 7 mph I think with if it runs at a TSR of around 6.  The lathe is great for this sort of thing, it makes it very easy to hold a single coil in exactly the right space and gives me a range of rpm to play with.  I welded 4 nuts to the back of the back rotor so that I could get this thing in the 4 jaw chuck on my lathe... the rotors are 14" diameter, my lathe has a 14" swing.

I figured from my tests that, if it's wired in Star, which I was planning, that 32 windings per coil would be just right.  As it turned out, 31 windings of 3 strand of AWG 14 wire worked out perfectly, so I went with that... close enough.   Pictured above I've layed out the areas where the coils must fit on plywood.  This will later become the bottom of the mould.

Above you can see the coil winder in the front, and in the back there is a stack of 3 spools of magnet wire from which I wound the coils.  Doing it this way is much easier than trying to wind with really heavy gage wire.  I also suspect that with very heavy wire, in a dual rotor machine like this - we might actually get eddy current losses within the thick copper wire.  This should help.  The other option would be to just wind my coils with 93 windings of 14 gage, and rather than wire my coils in series - I could've wired them in parallel.  But - past experience has shown that wiring coils in parallel creates losses, because certain windings are slightly out of phase with others and this allows current to flow between the coils when they are wired in parallel.  So I believe series is the best way to go - and at low voltage, the current becomes so much that I have to either use very heavy wire, or a bundle of finer wire.  I've opted for the bundle...

In this picture all 9 coils are wound and the mould is ready (in the background).  I'm out of nice large pieces of fiberglass mat, so I've cut lots of little squares and strips to work with.  This worked out fine.

Above is the stator.  It actually came out OK, but not great.  Kind of lumpy on the back side and a bit thicker than I'd hoped.  The stator is about 5/8" thick.  I was concerned that this extra thickness would compromise my airgap and raise the cutin speed above that which I'd hoped for... meaning I'd either have to make a new stator, or use a smaller prop.  (or run with a 14' prop and a high TSR which is an option I would probably not feel comfortable with... too fast.)

Yesterday I got the whole thing together.  My total airgap at this time is around 7/8", but cutin speed is right at 75 rpm...  just about perfect I think!  It was interesting assembling it.  When I had only the back rotor on with the stator, it cogged pretty badly against the 3 bolts that hold the stator.  This is typical - and usually goes away almost completely when the 2nd rotor is placed on.  Of greater concern however was that not only did it cog - but it had a lot of drag on it!  I was fairly certain at that point that there must've been currents flowing between the parallel strands of wire in each coil, in which case I'd have had to start over - probably build a higher voltage machine and use transformers or something.  As it turned out, after the top rotor was placed on  - all this drag, and all the cogging disappeared.  So I figure the drag must've been due to eddy currents in the bolts that hold the stator.  Kind of impressive at any rate, because the drag was very significant, I'd not have thought that 3 bolts could've been responsible for so much - but they must've been, because it's fine now.  Lots of fun - tomorrow I'll hopefully find some nice boards in town to start carving on!

Alternator finished | 7 comments (7 topical)

Re: Alternator finished (none / 0) (#1)
by windstuffnow on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 10:12:47 AM MST

  Looks very nice Dan!  What was the ohm reading on your coils when completed?  To bad the gap came out larger than you wanted, thats going to eat up some power but should still kick out some good power.  
  I'm designing an alternator to work with a slow turning VAWT.  The idea is to have the unit start charging at low rpm's ( around 30 to 45) but produce full power with very small rpm changes. ( full output by 100 rpm's or so)  It's been quite challenging and I'm still a bit off for the final product.  I'll be using similar magnets ( my smaller segments - which are only 2" tall x 1.57 top ).  I may steal your idea using strands of smaller guage wire as opposed to one heavy strand.  This may help reduce copper losses by reducing the eddy currents and I  believe, not sure yet, I may be able to get more copper in the magnetic path this way.  Interesting idea anyway...

Keep us posted on your output data when its together!!!

Have Fun
Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed



Re: Alternator finished (none / 0) (#2)
by DanB on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 10:59:12 AM MST

Hi Ed - when I hook the meter to it is says .1 ohms (and beeps at me).  So it must be somewhere between .1 and .2 ohms/ phase.

The airgap is kind of a bummer, but on the bright side, the cutin speed came out exactly where I wanted it and the stator is a bit stronger/less flexible - which is good I think because it's large enough - and the coils all pretty much touch each other, that weakness in the stator was a concern. It came out this way because I used a bit more fiberglass than normal on both sides, and I heated the resin up a bit much before I started (and mixed it a bit too hot) so that by the time I was putting the top on my mould it was allready setting up.  (I should've been more patient!).

Perhaps next time I'll have the resin go a bit more slowly and then perhaps I could get away with slightly thicker wire and a few less windings (maybe 4 strands of AWG 15 wire) so that resistance is a bit lower.  

I wonder if, in your case there would be any advantage to using multiple strands (other than that they are a bit easier to handle).  Would eddy currents in the copper be an issue with you, since youd be burying the windings inside slotted steel laminations?  It seems the laminates might take care of the eddy current losses in your case.

[ Parent ]



Re: Alternator finished (none / 0) (#3)
by windstuffnow on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 03:01:25 PM MST

  Hi Dan,
     Just playing with numbers and what you've given in data.  I've calculated between 1100 and 1400 watts in a 25mph wind not including any losses... let me know how close I came...
     After calculating out the differences in wire sections it actually takes up more space using smaller wire to make up a larger equivilant.  I thought it might come out a little more efficient since the air gaps between wires would be more filled in... Fun figuring it out though... back to the bar stock...

Have fun
Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: Alternator finished (none / 0) (#4)
by DanB on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 05:55:47 PM MST

"After calculating out the differences in wire sections it actually takes up more space using smaller wire to make up a larger equivilant."

Hi Ed.. I have to say, Ive not calculated this - but if we ignore the thickness of the insulation, that doesnt make sense to me...  it should be the same shouldn't it?  Except that - really large thick wire is harder to wind tightly, so I actually tend to think the opposite, It seems I can squeeze in a bit more copper this way, but I could be wrong.

[ Parent ]



Re: Alternator finished (none / 0) (#5)
by Jerry on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 06:15:48 PM MST

Hi DanB
I asked this ? a while back. I thought i could get more copper in a coil of the same phizical size it i used smaller ga. wire.

Then the group consencis was. Big wire , small wire the copper amount would be the same. I thought I could squeez more wire in with the small stuf and perelell the coils rather than siries?  DA-NO?

                              JK TAS Jerry

Airheads Page


[ Parent ]



Re: Alternator finished (none / 0) (#6)
by DanB on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 08:13:58 PM MST

I think it should be the same either way... except for the thickness of the xtra insulation on the smaller wire.  In this case - I had to do it, because the thought of winding a coil like this with something between AWG 9 and AWG 10 wire seems daunting - and Im certain Id have had some eddy current losses in the thick wire.

[ Parent ]


Re: Alternator finished (none / 0) (#7)
by Bach On on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 09:13:24 PM MST

DanB,

Do you twist the 3 wires together to form a single cable as you wrap? Or do you just wrap the three somewhat side-by-side?

Seems like with the twist things might be tighter though a tougher job to do. But there may also be some danger of damaging the insulation as you twist and wrap the coils.

Pretty work! You said the magnets were expensive. Are you guys going to offer them on the Wondermagnets site? Would we need to float a loan to be able to afford them? You already have some magnets for $45 each on there. A few folks might be willing to go for $80-$100 magnets, especially those who are completely off the grid.

Bach On
 
- - I'm not superman, but I am very dense! -



Alternator finished | 7 comments (7 topical)
Display: Sort:
Menu
· create account
· How to use the board
· FAQs
· search the board
· Google search the board

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Total Views
  175 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links
· magnet
· last posting
· Also by DanB

Powered by Scoop
You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest © 2009 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!